How “appreciative inquiry” can transform you and your team
Jordan Raynor sits down with Dr. Anthony Jones, Middle School Principal, to talk about how his family talks about work around the dinner table to instill a love of work in their kids, how “appreciative inquiry” can be used to develop teams, and why nobody goes to their seventh-grade reunions.
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[00:00:04] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christian who is pursuing world-class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work.
You guys have told me time and time again that some of your favorite episodes are with guests that you’ve never heard of. People who haven’t written a book, they aren’t leading a big company. They are doing the unseen work of the church day in, day out, in communities just like yours. Today’s guest, my friend, Dr. Anthony Jones is one of those people. He’s a middle school principal at Sligh Middle School here in Tampa, Florida. He’s an exceptional leader and educator, had a really nice job, really cushy job as a principal at another middle school in town. Largely, because of his faith, because of his understanding of the gospel, he decided to transition to lead one of the roughest schools in Tampa Bay. Through God working through Anthony, the school has seen remarkable results.
Dr. Jones, as I’m now calling him, we recently sat down. We talked about how his family talks about work around the dinner table to instill a love of work and vocation in their kids, how appreciative inquiry can be used to develop teams. I found that discussion fascinating. If you don’t know of appreciative inquiry, it’s worth listening just for that reason alone. Finally, we talked about why nobody wants to go to their seventh-grade reunions. Spoiler alert. Middle schoolers are terrible, or at least I was in middle school. I think you guys are going to love this episode with my friend, Dr. Anthony Jones.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:02:08] JR: Anthony, thanks for being here.
[00:02:10] AJ: I’m happy to be here.
[00:02:11] JR: First things first, you’re a huge Bucs fan, and we’re recording this a week after our Buccaneers won their second Super Bowl. How does it feel to be living in title town?
[00:02:22] AJ: It’s unbelievable for those long-time Bucs fans. It’s a tortured journey, and so to get to experience what we have over this past season, it’s incredible. It’s awesome, having a lot of fun with it.
[00:02:35] JR: Tom Brady coming back for a second season.
[00:02:38] AJ: I think that’s incredible.
[00:02:39] JR: It’s amazing.
[00:02:40] AJ: That’s exciting. Stuff like that doesn’t happen to the Bucs, so we’re going to enjoy while we got it.
[00:02:43] JR: It doesn’t happen to the Bucs. My listeners are scratching their heads, “Jordan is talking about sports. I think this is the first time.” This is how far I can take a conversation about sports. The Bucs won the Super Bowl and Tom Brady is coming back, but I’m excited for my hometown. It feels great.
[00:02:57] AJ: Absolutely.
[00:02:59] JR: Anthony, you and I have never really talked about your back story in education, but I am curious, what drew you to the idea of serving in public education? Your parents were educators? What’s the story there?
[00:03:10] AJ: Absolutely. It’s the family business. My parents both retired from Hillsborough County public schools after 35+ years of service. My dad was a math teacher, subject area leader. My mom taught high school social studies, a lot of advanced placement courses. Just grew up around the business, loved it always. I tell people, my parents never said a disparaging word about the profession sitting at that dinner table my whole life. Now, some days are better than others, and some coworkers are better than others, leaders are better than others. But as far as them questioning their calling or their purpose and that, I never heard one detraction from that ever to my ears.
When it came time, I just always enjoyed school and my parents loved their work, so I decided to join the family business. Started off as a social studies teacher and have just continued on. So yeah, it’s absolutely the family business.
[00:04:17] JR: I feel like that’s a rare gift though, to have parents who didn’t talk negatively about their work. I think it’s one of the greatest gifts we can give our kids, right? Do you think about that now that you’re sitting around the dinner table with your own kids, and how you talk about work and vocation?
[00:04:33] AJ: Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the questions we always ask our kids when we’re sitting around the dinner table is, “What did you like best about today? What was your best experience today?” Oftentimes, we’re conditioned to ask the opposite of that and focus on that. But absolutely, I think that’s important. I do think it’s a gift too, I don’t think everybody — unfortunately, I don’t think everybody’s testimony is they get to do something every day that they really enjoy. I would love that for everyone, and I do have the opportunity to say that. We want that for our kids, so I think we need to talk to them about that as well.
[00:05:11] JR: I agree. So, you’re a teacher before you’re an administrator. Way back on episode 21 of this podcast, our mutual friend Christy Adams, I’m not sure if you knew Christy was on here. Christy was talking about how she never wants to make the leap from teaching to administration, like zero interest whatsoever. I’m curious, why did you decide to make that leap from teaching to administration?
[00:05:35] AJ: That’s funny. I always joke with teachers when they talk about that. I go, “You sure you’re ready to join the dark side? Are you ready to?” I’ve always have enjoyed like sort of helping with like larger systems. I always liked the idea of how to make the larger organization run when I was teaching at Gaither High School. Early in my career, I had the opportunity to, through some master level courses, part of it was a practicum where you kind of acted like you’re an assistant principal there for several weeks are you’re finishing up your master’s program and just really liked it. I’ve always said that I’d like the idea of sort of hearing what my parents talked about at that dinner table every night of what they liked in school leaders, what they didn’t like, and just that opportunity to implement some of that thinking has always appealed to me.
I got the opportunity at Gaither to do that, and have just continued with it, and loved the study of leadership and just pursuing that. Went for the master’s and, eventually, just finished my doctorate of education back in December of last year.
[00:06:50] JR: Yeah, that’s awesome. I want to talk about that doctorate thing a little bit. But first, I forgot to ask my wife, Kara in preparation for this, but didn’t you teach my wife at Gaither High School? I know I’m aging you here.
[00:07:04] AJ: Now that I’m thinking back, I think she might have been in my class. I was definitely there when I was an assistant principal when she was a student there, for sure.
[00:07:13] JT: I think that was it. That was her first interaction with Dr. Jones.
[00:07:17] AJ: Absolutely. It was a little bit — like when I first got to Gaither, I’m a young guy, and had gotten this job and I knew some of the kids from church and whatnot, so it was kind of interesting to see them —
[00:07:29] JR: Yeah, that’s weird.
[00:07:29] AJ: — kids in a different capacity. Like a guy that helps out with the youth group at church and all of a sudden, he’s the guy yelling at you to get in the class on time. That was an interesting dynamic.
[00:07:40] JR: Today, you’re the principal of this Title I middle school here in Tampa. By the way, for those who don’t know, what’s a Title I school? Because I don’t want to take for granted that everyone knows this term.
[00:07:49] AJ: Title I is basically, it is associated with federal support, financial support for schools that have a high percentage of students that have free and reduced lunch. At our school, we’re right about 96%, and based upon your percentage of free and reduced lunch, and your enrollment, that factors into an equation that then equates to amount of federal dollars that you are given. The idea is to sort of use those dollars to create equity, maybe resources that maybe another school has, or this school has additional needs that need to be met. It allows you to purchase different supplies, or add additional funding, or get some instructional coaching in particular areas.
Long story short, there are federal dollars that are given to schools with high percentage of students on free and reduced lunch.
[00:08:45] JT: Got it. What I do know is that you left a pretty comfortable gig as a principal, another principal gig at an excellent, well-funded middle school to take the job you have now. Why did you do it? Why did you make the leap?
[00:09:01] AJ: Well, I was originally selected as part of a cadre of principals to enter a program at USF that eventually evolved into my doctoral program. That was investing through education and to principals of high-need schools. I was in a cadre of 11 principals, and I was the only one that was not at a high-need school. I always joke that I endured all the teasing, and poking and prodding that came along with being the outsider in the group. But through that program though, begin to see just the fact that every school needs a quality leader, and every school needs somebody that feels called to do it.
I had made a commitment through that program to one day serve in a high-need school and the opportunity came at Sligh and I pursued it. It is a completely different environment to where I was. Alike in some ways and different in others. But you feel like you’re right there where the rubber meets the road as far as just helping kids be successful through their education in a place that needs a lot of love and support. It’s been good, we’re having a good time with it.
[00:10:14] JT: A couple of years ago, I remember your wife posted about this on Instagram, and way back, I found the post. She posted that you guys had the largest testing gains of any school in Hillsborough County, which is pretty amazing. How did you pull that off? What was the strategy for seeing such significant gains?
[00:10:36] AJ: Yeah, we were tied for the highest learning gains amongst middle schools in Hillsborough County. We were 11th in the State of Florida. One of the things you have to do is you have to be very, very intentional about how you schedule kids, and very intentional about what the data is telling you and making sure that the right kids with the right teacher, and that they get the support that they need, and instilling belief in the students.
One of the things that I found was really planning the whole process around what’s best for the student in mind. A lot of that is just instilling a belief in them that they can do it. That sounds some technical stuff, like really making sure that the work is aligned at grade level standards, and making sure that you have high expectations for kids. But it really is, in large part, trying to instill a belief in the kids that they can do it. Then, in that, really making sure that you’re providing the quality instruction to meet that. Because you can convince a kid, “Hey! Do what I’m telling you to do.” But if you’re not telling them to do good, rigorous stuff and they’re believing in you, but then you’re not setting the bar high enough for them to accomplish the task.
[00:11:58] JR: I think it’s a chance for any leader, right? Whether you’re leading middle schoolers or employees at a startup for a big company, instill this belief that better is possible, that better is always possible, and that the path to mastery is one worthy of their calling and their commitment. How do you do that? Especially at middle school. I feel that’s probably the most challenging case study. How do you get this kid who comes from a family who doesn’t have a ton of money to believe that they can do great at school?
[00:12:31] AJ: I would say a couple things. One through my doctoral program at USF, I’m exposed to a process of change leadership called appreciative inquiry. What appreciative inquiry would tell you and trains you is that — it sort of challenges the traditional problem-solving notions of, identify a problem and let’s come up with some solutions to solve the problem. Actually, you start off by talking about what’s working. Then, as you build that strength capacity, you then create these ideal visions of what it could look like. Then you leverage the strengths in order to make that ideal possibility. A lot of high-need schools, the biggest obstacle, like I said, is doubt. It’s a belief that these kids can’t, this community can’t, these teachers can’t, this principal can’t.
But, as you begin talking about where the organization is working, even if it’s only working in 10% to 15% of the organization, that becomes the nexus of, well, we can no longer say that it can’t happen, because it’s happening in that classroom. So, why don’t we go find out what’s going on in that classroom, because ideally, we would want to replicate that everywhere.
When we see it working, what do we need to do in order to replicate is all throughout the campus? When you do that, it has a tendency to stifle blame, it has a tendency to stifle doubt. Because you can’t say it’s not happening because here’s the evidence that, in this space, it absolutely is happening with all the conditions that we know are going on, with all the obstacles, with all the things that we would point to as “issues or needs.” It’s happening in this space, so let’s go find out what’s going on there and see if we can replicate it.
[00:14:27] JR: I love this idea. I’ve never heard of this concept of appreciative inquiry. Give us a case study of this. Maybe from — I don’t know, maybe from coaching one of your stuff, one of your system principals or one of your teachers. What does this look like in practice?
[00:14:42] AJ: One of the big ways is how teachers, not only ultimately they are given like formative feedback on their practice, but ultimately how they are evaluated. They way that teachers are evaluated, we don’t have a lot of – that’s a prescribed rubric that’s given to us. But as far as how we leverage that to promote change, you watch a teacher teach. Then research says that giving feedback to that teacher that’s timely, that’s immediate, and in our case, sometimes we’ll give it even on the spot, like in the room. Because the ideas – if I wait until after school to give you the feedback, well then, you just have taught four more periods doing what might have been a better option. We’ll give the feedback right in that space in order to improve that practice before the next class period.
But oftentimes, invariably, when you ask somebody, “Tell me how you think that lesson went?” 999 times out of 1,000, they’re going to immediately start telling you about what’s not working.
[00:15:44] JR: Yeah, for sure.
[00:15:45] AJ: So, you stop them right there, “Whoa! I didn’t ask you what went wrong. I said, what went right?” Invariably, like for example, this is a very common cadence for how these goes. A teacher might have really good rapport with kids. You can just tell like the kids like him, but because of that like, there may be a tendency to not push the kids for fear that they won’t like you anymore. Kids will run with that, kids would love — if you’re the teacher they like and they can get you to talk about something that’s on the radio, or something online, or get you talking about Fortnight, that’s a win for the kid. We’ll tell teachers, “Look, the kids like you. That is a strength.” Not every teacher just walks in and has 22 kids that are like, “Ah! I think that person is cool.” Sometimes it’s hard to bottle, it’s hard to replicate, but we’ll say, “How do we leverage that?”
Ideally, the teacher might say, “Well, ideally, I wish the kids would do this and this, or behave better, or start class sooner,” or whatever. We’re like, “Look, you need to leverage that strength of that rapport that you have with kids to get more out of them.” Like actually set the bar higher. It sounds counterintuitive. Almost be meaner to them because they like you. They’re not going to stop liking you because you’re holding them to a higher standard. What’s going to actually end up happening is, they’re going to rise to the higher standard because they do like you. Don’t lower the bar thinking, “If I do it, I’ll lose this rapport.” No, use the strength of that rapport to leverage the kids to get them to either do it at a higher level, or do it longer or do it more consistently. Using that strength, because when you focus on what’s somebody’s good at for them to improve their practice, it gives them confidence because they — okay. I’m bringing this to the table. Whereas a deficit-minded conversation, really, you just spend the whole time talking about what somebody can’t do or isn’t doing.
Then there, you just get a lot of doubt and sometimes it’s hard for people to — it’s more of a leap of faith for them to do something different as opposed to, “Well, I’m already strong in this area, let’s see if I can use that to improve this other area.”
[00:18:02] JR: Well, I got to imagine that’s really effective in a culture where there is so much doubt. You’re walking in the door and nobody believes that this school can succeed. So, yeah, it’s like, “All right! What are our strengths? What’s working? How do we double down on it and build on it?” I’m curious what your day-to-day looks like. From the moment you wake up to when you go to bed. What is a typical day in the life of Dr. Jones?
[00:18:28] AJ: Well, it’s completely — well, my day now as opposed to my day when I was going to the doctorate, those are completely different. I look back on those days fondly, but I’m not eager to jump back into that pool any time soon.
[00:18:43] JR: What does a day look like today?
[00:18:45] AJ: Today. I’m an early riser, so I get up about 5:00 AM and just take some time, getting ready, doing some thinking, just reading, meditating. Then I like to get to work early. I have found that that’s my best time of the day. It’s also, I like to think that my family is sleeping while I’m doing some work. I appreciate that. I like to get to school early and just kind of plan out the day. My goal each day is to spend about 70% of my day instructionally, which is being in classrooms, giving feedback to students and teachers, maybe having a data chat with the department or a teacher leader. Really making sure that that classroom instruction is where it needs to be. That’s the most important thing in a school, is quality. What we say Tier I instruction, which is the instruction for everybody. That’s the main focus.
My goal is to spend about 70% of my day there, and so try to be — the work in a school is, you have to be very organized because your day is driven by bells. There’s a huge supervision component, so every time that bell rings, you need to be visible and be out and about, and help get kids with their goal. It’s a great time as the principal to be seen and visible. That’s where kids see you, so you have to be really strategic about your time, be very intentional. If you show up at a school and say, “Well, you know what? Forget the to-do list, I’m just going to what comes when it comes.” What’s going to come, the lack of organization is going to keep you there until 7:00 at night, because there are other demands of the job.
Really just trying to spend that time instructionally, being in classes, being with teacher leaders. Of course, you run a middle school, there’s going to be some chicanery or something, a bunch of middle school kids. There’s going to be something that pops up, and then, again, trying to be visible in between classes while also being in classrooms. But then also, dealing with any district details or reports or anything that have to get done.
Our day ends about 3:40. I try to leave work about, usually between 4:15, 4:30. Some days a little bit later, some days a little bit earlier. Because I do think it’s important to have that balance.
I’ve always been somebody that does a pretty good job of leaving work at work, and when I come home, I can just sort of relax. I got about 35-minute drive home, so that’s plenty of time to decompress, and then get home, and hang out with my wife and the kids, and try my best to not have that work carryover to home. That’s always been an important balance that I’ve kept. Getting there early while everybody’s sleeping helps me able to get home in the evening when everybody’s awake and hanging out.
[00:21:42] JR: Yeah. When I had to commute, I used to do the same thing. I would leave my house at 04:45, something like that, but I was home at 4:15 PM with the kids. How do you decompress in the car? Are you listening to something? Are you sitting in silence? I’m always curious about how people wind down.
[00:22:00] AJ: For me, I’m a sports guy, especially over this past month, so I was — I’m a sports radio guy, so I got the sports radio on, trying to find out what’s the latest on the Bucs when they were making their run. Either that, I’ll put on some — I’ll listen to like Joy FM, hear some stuff like that. I’m not a big music connoisseur guy. Sometimes I like to talk to people, call them on the way home or use that opportunity to just connect with some folks that I don’t normally get a chance to connect with, just to check in with them.
[00:22:35] JR: But non-work stuff?
[00:22:37] AJ: Oh, yeah. Nine times out of ten, non-work. I mean, every once in a while, if you got to set something up, you’ll call this person on the way home, but yeah, nine days out of ten, that’s just personal stuff, family stuff, or just listening to sports radio, find out what’s going on in the world of sports.
[00:22:57] JR: My worst days at home in the afternoon is when where I took a work call on the way home. It’s good to have that time to decompress. Anthony, when I asked you to do this, I told you I want to talk about how your faith as a Christ follower influences your work. So, real broad question to just start that conversation. How does your faith, how does the gospel specifically influence your choice of work and or how you do that work day in day out?
[00:23:22] AJ: Absolutely. I’ve always felt, from the beginning, there’s a lot of overlap between what the Bible calls a Christ follower to do and be in the work of education. It’s a calling. Very few people who’ve entered the world of education, you’re not going to be rich at the end of it. You’re not going to — some of the more historic reasons why somebody gets into something, it’s not a profit motive. It’s a calling and it about — I call it a ministry. It’s ministering to kids, ministering to teachers and, oftentimes, that’s not just reading, writing, and arithmetic. It’s helping them through personal situations, praying with folks where it’s appropriate, and being part of meeting their needs, helping them feel successful in their work and empowering them to see the purpose in what they do.
When I made the move to my current school, that feeling was exponentially higher just because of many of the needs that the kids have. Just that ministry of helping people. There’s not much more of a picture of the gospel than helping people that need your help. That’s what I believe that the gospel did for me and did for the world. I think that’s the connection, the correlation of really helping kids, and helping teachers, and helping families and meet not only their physical needs, but their emotional, their social needs. At times when appropriate, their spiritual needs. Like I said, we’ve prayed with families, prayed with parents.
You get to see people where they’re at, you get to see people in certain levels of distress, and need, and meeting that need, I think it’s quintessential gospel.
[00:25:18] JR: We over spiritualize a lot of terms in the church. One of them being ministry, right? But if you look at how ministry is used, it really just means service. That’s it, right? So it’s hard to think of a profession that screams service more than education. You mentioned not a lot of money in education, but there’s also like almost no status either. I would argue that, in today’s day and age when you are what your LinkedIn profile says you are, status may mean even more than income.
Have you thought about that? Have you wrestled with that? Has that been a struggle for you or no? Like you say saw your parents ministering in education and so that was always a no-brainer for you.
[00:26:03] AJ: I personally have not struggled with that, and I don’t mean that in any other way more than, this is really the only thing I’ve ever really saw myself doing. But as far as that tension between what an educator feels and oftentimes how the society values them, that tension is real and that tension is something that I think every educator has wrestled with. We found over this past year that — it turns out that the schools and teachers, they are essential. If you’ve got to shut down the world for a pandemic, it turns out you can’t stop teaching kids.
You might have to do it online or you might have to get real creative but, over this past year, I really think that — well, I hope that one sort of the legacies of this pandemic is that we do reevaluate that and realize that the people that are in education, whether they’re teachers are instructional support staff or administrators, that they are essential, they are important, and that they are valued. Because they’re certainly called on to perform a lot of miracles at times, and the status that comes with that I think could be elevated.
I hope that’s one of the things that we look back after the long look with all this pandemic stuff. Hopefully that helped contribute to that.
[00:27:33] JR: I think it will be. I’ve been thinking a lot about this over the last year or so. I’ve talked a little bit about on the podcast. It’s very kingdom-esque and that we’re turning upside down which vocations we deem essential and not. Like think about who are essential workers right now. Garbage men, teachers, delivery people, right? It’s service. It’s not investment banking. No offense to investment bankers, I love you. But it’s fascinating, and I think it’s a beautiful picture of what’s to come in the kingdom of who’s being the greatest and the least, right?
I want to shift gears for a minute. We talked a little bit about you leaving this other middle school to come to this Title I school, certainly didn’t have to do that, but you took this principal job. It was a pretty cushy position that you left. It was pretty comfortable, and yet you sacrificed relatively privileged position to go serve. I was thinking about that in the context of race. You and I, we did a study last year on Zoom via our church on race. One of the questions that I walked away with from that was, I recognize that, as a white male, I have privilege that should be sacrificed for others that don’t look like me, don’t share the same background as me. But I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know what it looks like to sacrifice privilege on behalf of others.
I’m curious if you have any thoughts on this. What does that look like practically for us as Christ followers?
[00:29:16] AJ: I can certainly say when I think, biblically, when I think about the idea, I believe it’s Philippians where Paul talks about the importance of to not look out for your own interests, but look to the interests of others. I tell people all the time that when I was at my previous schools, if I just pulled random kids out of the cafeteria, or whatever random parent came in with a situation, I felt nine times out of ten when I was looking across my desk at somebody, I was looking at myself. I was talking to a family where I just felt like I know what you’re going through, because you kind of remind me of me, your story is similar to mine, and that was an extremely comfortable place to be because it just eliminated some steps. But when I came to my new position at the new school, I did not have that advantage. I’ll be honest with you, I still don’t in a lot of ways.
What it has forced me to do is to be a better listener. It has forced me to be more empathetic, not because my story is any greater than anybody else’s story. But I’m working with somebody, still the same goal. I’m trying to get them to the finish line, we’re trying to get through middle school, we’re trying to prepare you for the future. But it’s not as many shared experiences, but it’s more than you think. Until you actually — having that opportunity to work and interact with not only students but staff in an environment that was different, I think it is – like I said, it’s made me better. It has strengthen my walk and my faith, just because it has forced me to practice skills with more intentionality, those skills of listening and empathy, and the ideal of putting others, somebody else’s interest before your own. It’s taken that to the next level because I’m in a place that I didn’t have a whole lot of — I didn’t have really professional experience as an assistant principal or as a teacher or even as a principal in a school that was comprised like the one I’m at now. It has definitely stretched me and has grown me for sure.
[00:31:44] JR: Chris Basham, our mutual friend, my pastor. One of the things I love about Chris is his love of public educators, just anyone at any vocation just engaging the world, not retreating. He and I gets so frustrated by this retreat-ist form of Christianity that say, “Well, we’re all here until we die, so protect it and insulate ourselves until we get to heaven.” I suspect that line of thinking makes you mad too. Can you share your thoughts on this?
[00:32:13] AJ: Sure. Like I said, I grew up in a home of public educators. My sister and I both went through public school, and had great times, great relationships, great ministry, opportunities and I certainly — when you align that to a biblical world view, I think it is important for believers to engage, and have a voice, and be heard, and be the gospel, and ministering to people. I think that is critically important. I think that public schools should reflect the community that they’re in and they should reflect all the different types of people. That should include Christ followers, people who are confident about what they believe and want to show that love to other people.
There are times in the church, there’s a tension between to what extent do I put that out there? Or do I stay behind the wall, for lack of better term? I think it’s absolutely important for Christians to be part of the community, to be out there and to live their life, and to share love, and grace, and conviction with everyone around them.
[00:33:28] JR: How have you thought about that? Like, how open you are about your faith in a public-school setting?
[00:33:35] AJ: I mean, certainly, there are certain parameters that we operate under. I have carte blanche authority as the principal of a middle school to get on the intercom and talk whenever I want. Like I’m the only person that can do that, but it doesn’t mean I can talk about whatever I want to talk about, whether it’s religious or if I just want to babble on the Bucs all day long. People get tired of that too. But I think a lot of it is the walking the walk and taking every opportunity to be loving, to be gracious, to be a man of your word, to have your talk seasoned with salt, and make sure that you just talk the right way and operate the right way.
There are opportunities, whether it’s with the teacher or with a staff member, there are opportunities to talk about spiritual things when it’s appropriate, and when they bring it up. Times that you are ministering with the staff members who’s suffered loss.
One of the things I realized as a principal, people ask me, “What’s the biggest difference between an assistant principal and a principal?” One of the biggest things for me that I found is that there are things that — it’s mainly your staff members, and sometimes it’s families, but with your staff members, there are things they all share with the principal that they don’t share with anybody else there. It’s not because like you’re necessarily like their buddy, but they’re like deep personal things that they feel that they have to share with you because you’re the leader of the school and they’re going through it. It might explain why they’ve got to take a month off. Just part of being the boss but, as you build relationships with folks, and in those times, there’s oftentimes really good ministry to talk with folks. Like I said, sometimes you pray with them, sometimes you cry with them. You check in on them in many ways that a pastor would just with a member of their church.
[00:35:40] JR: Yeah. Certainly, good leadership opens up doors for those explicit conversations in times to previous staff. But even if those opportunities didn’t exist, we got to all remember that Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself. Period. Complete sentence. That’s God honoring in and of itself. Just having conversations that are seasoned with salt. Just being somebody who keeps his or her word. That is enough. God graciously gives us more than that, an opportunity to minister and share him explicitly, but that is enough. That’s enough. We should be content with that. I love the work you’re doing.
Hey, Anthony, three questions we love to wrap up every conversation with. Number one, curious which books that you’ve read at any point in time that you think back on and have really influenced you. Maybe books that you recommend or give to other people from time to time. What are those books for you?
[00:36:32[ AJ: Well, there’s two that I think about. One is a book that I got from my doctoral program. It is about appreciative inquiry. It’s Appreciative Inquiry: A Positive Approach to Building Cooperative Capacity. It’s a very technical book, like this is not a page turner. But the fact of so many change processes that are out there or really run that notion of problem-solving. Start from a deficit, let’s talk about like where it’s broken and how do we get back to level ground as opposed to this idea of how do we go above level ground? Let’s talk about where it’s working, and let’s even go further. Let’s talk about what it can be, then talk about how we build those next steps.
Then just through my travails as a principal, there’s a guy that’s out there, he’s a principal speaker, motivator named Todd Whitaker, who wrote a book about What Great Principals Do Differently. One of his big points and if you ever hear Todd Whitaker speak is this idea of, principals need to invest in their top-performing folks. Sometimes, in leadership, that seems counterintuitive. Certainly in education for a hundred years, the dichotomy was if the principal is not in my room, that must mean that I’m not one of the people that they’re trying to get rid of. That’s not proven to be a successful model.
As principals invest in their high-performing teachers, those high performers are the ones that are — research tells us they’re the ones that have the highest growth capacity. Then as other people see the principal investing their time in high-performing folks, they started thinking, “Well, I want to be the guy that the principal comes and talks to.” So, it sort of turns that dynamic on its head of, everybody is sort of breathing easy because the principal is obviously only going in that room because there’s a problem.
[00:38:21] JR: I think it’s a lesson applicable for anybody. What the name of that book?
[00:38:25] AJ: What Great Principals Do Differently by Todd Whitaker.
[00:38:29] JR: I love that. You guys can find those book at jordanraynor.com/bookshelf. Yeah, I used to tell my teams, “Here’s the deal. You’ll know I have a problem with you if one, I’m being mature and actually tell you and give you constructive feedback.” Which hopefully was the majority of the time or, two, “If I’m being passive-aggressive. If you just stop hearing from me, I just stop investing in you, that’s not a good sign.” Who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the Christian faith influences their work?
[00:38:58] AJ: Well, I’ll be honest with you. In this time of not — we talked about sports being great, but politics has been so much a part of the —
[00:39:06] JR: Not great, but it’s been something.
[00:39:09] AJ: It’s out there. The Bucs winning the Super Bowl is way more fun. But I’ve just really been kind of seeking and really taking interest in this whole idea of how one’s faith informs their political views. My wife and I have found a lot of work from the AND Campaign, and the founder of that campaign, Justin Giboney. Just a really a unique way of articulating ideas around politics and faith that seem to be a little bit different than what you would normally hear. We’ve been enamored by some of their podcasts and articles, so I’d love for you to get a chance to talk to them.
[00:39:56] JR: I love that suggestion. I’ve been politically homeless for a while now, and I’m still politically homeless, so I’m looking for a home. I think a lot of us are. That would be an interesting conversation. All right, Anthony, last question. One piece of advice to leave this audience with. Some of them are educators, most of them are not, most of them are entrepreneurs, or writers, or leaders, or executives, or marketers, whatever. What they share is a love of Jesus Christ and a desire to do great work for God’s glory. What do you want to leave them with?
[00:40:27] AJ: I would say, certainly, if you are a leader in that capacity, just lead with humility. It is, in the context of the school, it’s about putting those kids first. It’s not about me as the principal being first. I can only speak for the education profession, but there are a lot of — in education, there’s a lot of things that will — a lot of pressures, a lot of different things that will come at you, that will put a strain on, just kind of humbling, putting yourself aside, and doing what’s best for kids. Because kids can be sloppy work.
I tell people all the time that, nobody goes to their seventh-grade reunion. There’s no reason. Seventh grade is hard. Seventh grade is really hard, but denying yourself, just humbly setting yourself aside and saying, “What am I going to do to make these kids be more successful?” Sometimes it’s fun, goofy stuff that they sort of enjoy and get to goof around. But then sometimes, it’s having more patience than you have. It’s having more understanding than you have. A lot of times, it’s having more grace than you’re willing to give out.
Nobody’s story is fully written at 12 years old, nobody. You’ve got to be willing to be patient, and gracious, and loving through that. But I think that applies to adults as well, is just making it – Leadership is about letting other people put their interests in front of yours. That’s what I would leave them with.
[00:42:00] JR: Does leading a middle school make you look back on yourself as a middle schooler and be like, “Oh man! I was the worst.” I feel like I would hate my middle school self a lot if I led a middle school.
[00:42:11] AJ: It is funny. Like sometimes, you do see it and you’re like, “Oh!” Because it’s funny now because I’m getting older, and middle school, the psyche of the middle school human being hasn’t changed much since I was in six, seventh, or eighth grade. There may be different bells and whistles, and toys, and phones, and that’s a whole another can of worms. But I tell you, it’s interesting. It’s a great age to work with because they’re old enough to start making some of their own decisions. But even as cool as they want to act like they are, they still want the adults’ approval. They still want to hear from you. It’s a great age to work with.
[00:42:50] JR: I love it. Anthony, I want to commend you and everybody listening for the important redemptive work you’re doing every day. Thank you for just allowing the gospel to transform everything in your life including your decisions about work. Thank you for leading your school well and serving students and parents through the ministry of excellence. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for joining me today, Anthony.
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[00:43:13] JR: Hey, if you’re doing work out in the community, again, you haven’t written a book right? You’re not famous. You’re just doing the work of the church day in and day out but, yeah, you think you’re world-class at it or you know somebody else who meets that criteria, somebody who’s got the 10,000+ hours of purposeful practice of their craft. They’re great at what they do, and they love Jesus, send them our way. Seriously, we would love to hear your guest recommendations. You can email us at hello@jordanraynor.com. We would love to hear those suggestions.
Hey, if you’re enjoying the podcast, you know I’m going to ask you do. Take 10 seconds and go rate the podcast on Apple Podcast. Five stars, four stars, whatever you think is fair, so long as it’s not one star. But seriously, those ratings help us immensely get this message, get this podcast episodes in the ears of more listeners. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening to this week. I’ll see you next time.
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