"Growth and comfort cannot co-exist"
Jordan Raynor sits down with Zach Williams, Creator of The Untold, to talk about why growth and comfort cannot coexist, why Zach is grateful that the Lord has given him way more than he can handle, and how a little-known story from Chick-fil-A inspired me to be intentional about not growing my business.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work, not for themselves, not for their own fame and fortune, but for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who is pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, we talk about their daily habits, and most importantly, we talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences the work they in the world.
Today's guest is my friend, Zach Williams. He's the creator of The Untold, literally the only podcast I listen to on a regular basis. He's also the chairman of a company called Venveo, this digital agency that has about one client represented on every aisle of Lowe's and Home Depot. Zach and I recently sat down to talk about why growth and comfort cannot coexist. Why Zach is grateful that the Lord has given him way more than he can handle in his life. And we talked about this little-known story from Chick-fila-A that inspired me to be intentional about not growing my business. I think you guys are going to love this episode with my friend, Zach Williams.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:33] JR: Zach Williams, my friend, finally, we have you here on the podcast. Welcome.
[00:01:36] ZW: Thank you. Really excited to be here, Jordan. I'm a long time listener,
[00:01:40] JR: Long-time listener, first-time caller, the best guests ever. So really quick, you and I were just hanging out in person, in Tampa together. What do you think of Tampa? Because this is your first time in the city or one of your first times in the city, what do you think of my hometown?
[00:01:55] ZW: So I spent a bunch of time in Tampa probably five years ago.
[00:01:59] JR: That's right, because you had a client here.
[00:02:00] ZW: Yeah. I mean, it was a cool city. And then I came back and visited and saw you. It felt like a totally different town.
[00:02:09] JR: Yeah. If you haven’t been to Tampa in the last five years, you've never been to Tampa.
[00:02:13] ZW: Yeah, it was pretty cool. I'm not going to lie. I've walked away going like, “This is a place I could totally see myself.” Like very cool.
[00:02:21] JR: Yeah. We're very proud of our city, especially these last five years. Alright. So really excited to talk about The Untold, which, PS, is literally, to quote Chris Traeger, “Literally, the only podcast I listened to.” But first, I think we got to talk about Venveo, this company you founded, you're now chairman of. So, let's start with the basics real quick. What the heck is Venveo?
[00:02:45] ZW: Great question. So, in 2007, I founded a marketing agency, and called it Venveo which is basically, I get asked all the time, like, what does it mean? It's basically the root of two Latin words, that means media that moves. And so, we like to think that we create media and content and moves our clients in the direction we want to go. So, I founded this agency in ’07, and recently, I guess three months ago, stepped away from being CEO, to a founder and chairman position.
So, there's a lot of backstory, and all of that, but it basically, what we do is we're primarily actually focused on the building products and construction space. So, it's super niche, which I love, and I love the industry. But it's really focused on companies that sell in Lowe's and Home Depot, for example. My dad like, he actually works at Lowe's. And he's like, “What in the world do you do?” I’m like, “Dad, if you walk down an aisle at Lowe's or Home Depot, there's a good chance I have a client on every aisle.” And he goes, “Okay, well, what do you do for them?” And then the conversation breaks down. He actually called me recently, and he was like, “Hey, I saw you on the news today.” I was like, “No, you didn't.” He's like, “No, no, I did. I saw Venmo.” And I was like, “Dad”.
[00:04:06] JR: Dad, I wish I founded Venmo.
[00:04:08] ZW: Dad, if I founded Venmo, we'd be on an island somewhere.
[00:04:14] JR: Okay, so Venveo is not Venmo, but it's a legitimate business. How many team members you guys right now? 60-ish?
[00:04:21] ZW: Yeah, I think we're at 65, last time I heard. It's really wild, because I'm now in a position where I get like updates on like, new people after it happens. I have no idea we're even recruiting, which is really cool to be in, because for so long, I was involved in every single hire and a part of that. But we're right about 60 people. We're primarily remote. We've got an office in Blacksburg, Virginia, which is where we're headquartered, but we got people up in on the East Coast and West Coast. Even got some team members in Central America and even Europe. So, pretty dispersed but really have leaned into that since COVID and it's worked out really well for us.
[00:04:58] JR: So almost Venmo scale.
[00:04:59] ZW: Almost Venmo. We're almost there.
[00:05:01] JR: Within striking distance of Venmo scale. Alright, so a really successful business, but far from an overnight success. I don't know if you're ready to talk about this publicly, but you're working on a book. I had to read a first draft because when you're in Tampa, we were at dinner, and I demanded that you send me a first draft. So, you literally pulled out your laptop at dinner and sent me the first draft. But I'm really enjoying reading the draft of this book and your story and just you describing how brutal some of those early years were. Because I think a lot of people are like, “Ah, man, all these success stories. Tell me like the good stuff, like the hard stuff.” I mean, there were many months in which you're confident you were closing this business down, right?
[00:05:45] ZW: Yeah, I used to say, we were going out of business for five years.
[00:05:48] JR: I run a business that's going out of business,
[00:05:53] ZW: I run a business that's going out of business. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to me, because I get to meet other agency owners. I'm like, “Man, how did they achieve success so quickly?” Now, granted, I started the business, like right out of college. So, I'd worked for an agency or two, and learned business from these different agency owners, and a lot of them really brought me under their wing, which really helped me quite a bit. But I've struggled for longer than I've succeeded for in my career. And by struggled, like, that's a kind word. I've probably failed is probably a more correct interpretation.
So, we didn't really turn a profit, Jordan until, gosh, I don't know, eight years in, something like that. I got married, had kids during that time, trying to make payroll. I don't know if I told you this. I tried to, I think in 2015, I tried to declare for bankruptcy. Did I tell you this?
[00:06:48] JR: No.
[00:06:49] ZW: I tried to declare for bankruptcy because it was just so bad. I was like, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and then I found out that like, the kind of debt I was in, you can't really escape from all of it. So, I was like, “Shoot, I've got to lean even harder into this.” And that's where I hit my my crucible moment, my inflection point in my career. Thankfully, I mean, we can talk about this or not talk about it, but that was the moment where things really started to turn where I was at, like this ultimate low in 2015. And we leaned hard into our sales process, leaned hard into our niche, changed our service offering, all in a matter of like a few months, and haven’t looked back. So, we were, gosh, four people at that moment, five people.
[00:07:33] JR: Wow. That's crazy. I didn't realize it was that small of a team. You had these big challenges at work, you also have challenges at home in around this time, right? You had a daughter born with special needs, right?
[00:07:46] ZW: That's right. So right around this time, part of what, I don't want to say added insult to injury, which would add a lot of complexity to it was that the business was really struggling. Obviously, we were struggling to make payroll, and that's been my life for a while. And then my wife gave birth to our third child, Eliza, and she, I think was the first day, yeah, the first day in the hospital, she had to get rushed to the NICU at a different hospital. We started to uncover that she has some global developmental delays, both physically and neurologically and that was really difficult. Because my wife needed a ton of help, my daughter needed help. We didn't really – frankly, like, we didn't even understand what was really going on. We talked to neurosurgeons to get MRIs and like, all these different things. And swirling the background is like, “Oh, gosh, I got to make payroll.”
I remember there were times where we couldn't stay overnight with our daughter, because she was in the NICU. I'm trying to hustle and make phone calls, walking into the hospital, and my wife is giving me a look. If any entrepreneur has been there, they know exactly what I'm talking about. That was really, really difficult. So, we had all of these medical bills for her. The business was struggling and I was like, “Lord, have I like, totally missed you in this moment? What in the world am I even doing with my life?” It was a pretty emotional time period for me and I look back on it, I'm like, “Okay, Lord, you were definitely there in the moment.” But it was difficult, man. It was really, really difficult. But you learn more in those moments than you do in the successes.
[00:09:20] JR: What did you learn about God, and who you are as His child during that brutal period?
[00:09:27] ZW: It's funny you ask that question, like my wife asked me that recently too. She's like, “What did you learn from that moment, like from that season?” I had a difficult time putting my finger on it. But for me, I think that for the Lord, like, it's cheesy to say like he's there in it, but he really is there in it. He really is in the moment, like the day by day. I think for me personally, like we love to talk about perseverance, as Christians we love a sermon on perseverance. But walking through perseverance, like walking through that is a totally different ballgame.
I feel like I learned and was forced, really, if I'm honest with you to deal with a lot of issues with fear, issues with really going after the things that I actually needed to attack. Because if I look back on it, I think if I started a business today, it'd be so much more successful today from the get go than if I did it back then. Because, as people, we tend to avoid the things that make us feel uncomfortable, because it's painful. And there were parts of my business that I subconsciously avoided because it was painful. So, sales, for example. Now, I love sales. But in the moment, like, I would avoid that, which sounds ridiculous, because you got to make money. But there are parts of my business I avoided because it was painful and I was forced to reckon with those external things I need to deal with, like sales or operations or whatever it might be, as well as the internal struggles of like, “Okay, I've got some real issues with fear. I've got some real issues with the idea of failure, and how do I grapple with those things.”
So, looking back, I really feel like the Lord was super intentional with me, in that time period. It was not wasted time, it wasn't like I missed it. And I think we can oftentimes feel that we're walking through a season where things are so challenging, like, “Lord, I'm totally missing it, because I'm succeeding.” But to Him, we're right on track. I was right on track with where I needed to be. I was learning the things and cultivating healing in the areas of my life that I really needed to so that I could handle success. And that's hard to see in the moment. It's easy to see now. But it's hard to see in a moment, because you're just living day by day.
[00:11:49] JR: Oftentimes, I think the Lord uses failure. I know this has been true in my life to reveal idols, right? Frankly, just like tear him down in our hearts, so that we can “succeed”. I don't think God's interested necessarily in our success, but so that when we do, we can do it in a way that assigns glory to Him, and isn't a means of glorifying ourselves.
[00:12:16] ZW: Well, you're 100% correct. I think the other thing too, is the perspective, I think if I would have achieved success more quickly in my business than I did, I think I probably would have taken a lot more credit for it personally. Now, I’m like the Lord, it's 100% Him. I had to show up. You got to show up to get in the ring. But like, the way he orchestrated it was really –I mean, to me thinking about it, it's really beautiful, how he does stuff like that.
[00:12:47] JR: Would you say, because of that, you're thankful for the failure of the business early on?
[00:12:55] ZW: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, I think you have to. It gives you context. It totally gives you context. I can look back to those moments and go, really, two things. You know what it feels like to struggle, so you can empathize with people. But it also gives you context relationally with the Lord, and where you are and where he's brought you. That's like the eternal stuff. That's the eternal relationship component within that, I'll always have. Looking back through my journals, and just like pouring my heart out to him, I always say, like, that's the goal of heaven right there. Those are the moments where the rubber really meets the road, in your relationship, like do you really believe he says he's going to provide you, really believe he's going to do it? He says it, but do you really believe it?
[00:13:46] JR: Paul says in first Corinthians 9:13, he says that God, “Will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.” But a lot of Christians have twisted that verse to peddle this, just as unbiblical lie that God won't give you more than you can handle, right? And that is bogus by and even Paul says this explicitly. I think it's in Second Corinthians, where he says, “We were under great pressure far beyond our ability to endure.” That was you. You had circumstances that were far more than your ability to handle it. But because of that, you were forced to assign glory to God when you came out of it, right?
[00:14:35] ZW: A hundred percent. I mean, growth and comfort cannot coexist, and that's true in business and that's true in relationships. I have to. I have to give him glory, but I think to him, between him and me, I look at our personal relationship. Of course, I give him the glory but I also, I feel like like on a sports team, Jordan or like, let's say you've gone through something with somebody. That camaraderie you build with somebody that you've walked through, like your spouse, for example. Of course, I give Him glory. But it's like also like, when you look at him like a friend, we did that together. And that's hard to describe with words, but it just adds such a great, I guess, I say beauty, but it adds like a beautiful component to our relationship. I'm like, “Lord, we like we did that together. You really walked me through that together.” If you did it then, you can do it again. That's why I say it's so measurably invaluable.
[00:15:41] JR: We have redemptions far more beautiful when you've seen darkness. You're coming from darkness till light, right? Yes. Yours is interesting to me, man. You've had plenty of things to legitimately fear in your life, frankly, like way more than I've had to fear. And yet, you and I know each other pretty well. You're one of the most fearless people I know. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's rooted in these years of hardship and just being forced to rely on the Lord and see him prove faithful? What's the source of that fearlessness?
[00:16:19] ZW: Oh, gosh, my wife would say it’s obliviousness. I mean, I think it has to be. My personal take is, on like being an entrepreneur, for example, I'm sure a large part of your listeners are entrepreneurs in this business. I look at people who don't know the Lord and run a business, and I'm like, “You guys are crazy. You’re absolutely crazy.”
[00:16:40] JR: I’ve said this a hundred times. It’s insane.
[00:16:42] ZW: I really don't know how you do it. For me, I don't know if I'm necessarily very brave, Jordan. I’m not saying this. this doesn't come across conceited. I'm not necessarily very brave. I try to get like really close to the Lord, and I try to really hear what He's saying. I feel confident in His ability to speak. I feel confident in His ability to lead, and if I feel like He's telling me, and I know, He's telling me to do something, I'm confident in that. I'm confident that even if I miss it, and I make a mistake, His ability to overcome that mistake, is much greater than my ability to make a mistake. Does that make sense?
[00:17:23] JR: Totally.
[00:17:23] ZW: So, my DNA, my makeup, yeah, absolutely. I like to take risks. I am not necessarily afraid of that. I find that as an adventure with the Lord. But I find that that tendency, if I'm not close to him, can turn very quickly into like the wrong motive and the wrong – frankly, instead of faith, it becomes fear for me. I make decisions out of fear.
[00:17:46] JR: I think, because I know this is like a core theme of this this book you're working on. I think you should borrow Taylor Swift's title, and just call this 'Fearless'. I think that's a necessary move. This is just an excuse for me to talk about Taylor.
[00:18:02] ZW: You think she'd write my preface?
[00:18:03] JR: Hey, I don't know. We can find out. If you tell an Untold story about her, which we'll talk about in just a minute. But listen, you just turned over the reins of this company that you ran for, I don't know, how long? 13 years or something?
[00:18:16] ZW: Yeah, 13, 14 years, somewhere there, yeah.
[00:18:18] JR: There had to be fear in that. Right? There's just some level that you never had anybody else run the business day to day. I've been in that position before of turning over the reins of CEO. What did you learn through that process? What were some spiritual lessons that you took away from that transition?
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[00:18:39] ZW: Well, I think if we start at why I made the transition, I think it's it's helpful in context. I made the transition, not because I was burnout of the business, or because I didn't like it anymore. You see a lot of people leave because of that reason. For me, I did it in large part because my makeup is very much like the zero to one, like Peter Thiel.
[00:19:02] JR: Yeah, me too.
[00:19:02] ZW: I like getting things off the ground. So, I started to see my tendencies as an entrepreneur were actually impacting the business and the further growth of it. And so, when I start to look at where does the business need to go, and am I the right leader? I started to do some self-evaluation and the Lord really pushed me into this and going no, like, “I'm not the best right leader for where the business is right now.” So, that's where I had to position it as I'm stewarding the ownership of this, and I feel a large responsibility to the people in the organization and my team. I felt like that's why the transition was needed. But to answer your question about was I afraid? I mean, I don't know man. I feel like I just really trust my executive team. And I trust my leadership team so much, that I'm like, you guys are going to do great. This doesn't mean it's going to be hard, but I'm also not like at arm's length with them. I see them, I meet with them on a regular basis. There are things that they do that I wouldn't do, and I have to be careful with that. Because I can't CEO, what was it, armchair, quarterback, whatever the – yeah, I can't do that.
I feel like there are times where I mean, when things are great, you're like, “Oh, I'm not afraid at all.” And like things are challenging, you’re like, “Did I make a mistake? Am I afraid of that?” I really trust my team a lot, Jordan. For me, it's kind of like your relationship with the Lord, and you build up such trust in those relationships, that it really helps in those situations where you've got to establish courage and really bring in faith. I think if that verse, “Love covers a multitude of sins.” I would also say that, like, love covers a multitude of fears. So, I have such trust and love for the individuals in my organization, and like I have seen them operate for so long, that I know that they're going to do very, very well.
[00:20:51] JR: I think there's an analogy here with the way you thought about your transition, and it's almost identical to how I thought about transitioning from CEO to Chairman of Threshold. The argument was, basically, “Hey, I'm a zero to one type entrepreneur. I like starting things, I like going from zero to one, I don't necessarily love going from one to 1.1 to 1.2 and marginal growth. I don't like managing that. So, I'm no longer the best person to occupy the CEO chair.” And it's really a decision that prioritizes the mission of the organization over you personally occupying anyone role, right? The mission takes precedence. And I think this is a beautiful analogy for the church. The mission of the church is advancing the kingdom of God, and we should all be looking at how God has uniquely wired us to say, “What role have I been called to fill in that mission?” Not trying to you know, you know, work ourselves into some other role that we want to have or that we think is more attractive, or that we think is that other people are telling us is most needed. Just be like, “Okay, how has God designed me? What small role can I play in advancing that bigger mission?” I don't know. Is that analogy lining up for you?
[00:22:18] ZW: In business, 100%. I talked about this a lot, if I'm really real, we get approached like a lot of companies get approached, to get acquired. I have zero appetite for that, because I feel like part of what I've been able to help create. And I'll give a lot of kudos to my wife, too, and my team, it's like an environment that is really conducive to helping people foster and grow their personal career as well as their lives individually, in a really safe environment. So that sounds really great to say out loud, but unless you live it, you live in that culture, it's very refreshing to people. For me, I feel like that's a part of my mission as an individual with the Lord is, I want to empower other people to grow themselves. That's part of why I was excited about this transition, is like I want to see the individuals in my team grow. I want to allow them to stretch their wings, and be uncomfortable without me being the CEO. That's a part of it. So absolutely, 100%.
[00:23:21] JR: Yeah. What do you think is different about the culture of Venveo because of your relationship with the Lord? I mean, I think you just hit on one of them, right? You’re thinking about, “How can I serve and develop these people and help them grow.” But what else do you think is distinct about the organization because of your faith?
[00:23:43] ZW: I'm going to struggle answering that because I only can look at things from the perspective of my relationship. So, it's hard for me to kind of detach that.
[00:23:52] JR: That actually is a good answer.
[00:23:53] ZW: I don't know. I'll say this. I can tell you what people say that's really unique. I had a person on our team, I don't interface with them a ton. But they sent me a note, the first couple months of them working here, maybe six months in, and they're like, “Hey, I want you to know that I've been looking for Venveo for years. My parents didn't think I was ever going to be able to find it.” And they're like, “I am so, so grateful for like what you've built.” That really touched me, I mean, that was obviously a very emotional moment for me. But I think it's the big thing for us is like we encourage risk a lot. We encourage it a lot and we encourage autonomy in that. To some people, like people don't want that. Some people are like, I don't want that. It very turns people off. But to a lot of people, it's very empowering.
Personally, I always view – and I feel like this could be a book on its own, but I've always viewed the health of an organization can be boiled down to: how free do people feel that they are to take risks in an organization? Because if you feel like you can take risk, that means you feel like your team trust you, it makes you know that they have your back, it helps you know that you've got a vision for where the organization needs to go. So, we always try to look at, well, why is that person not risking it? Or why is that person risking? And that helps us get a pretty good indicator of the health of an organization and how we're doing and coaching our team, as well as delivering the vision of the organization.
[00:25:23] JR: I want to come back to this idea of of risk in a second. But I just want to make an observation about something that you just said. This woman writing you this letter, saying, “I found in Venveo something I've been looking for, for a long time.” Man, it's so beautiful, because really what she's saying is like, I have found a home, like a professional home. I feel safe here. I mean, I don't know exactly what that person was looking for. But that's what we're all looking for. I feel safe. I feel loved. I feel cared for. And that is, “Kingdom work.” You're making another person feel loved, and appreciated, and accepted. It's beautiful. That's important stuff.
[00:26:10] ZW: I ask this, Jordan. Why do we – and this is, I mean, I don't think there's any one right answer this, but like, why do we follow the Lord? What is it about how the Lord treats us that makes us want to follow him?
[00:26:20] JR: It's unconditional love. Right? It's secure. It's only in the Lord that we find the verdict for our lives outside of the performance. I mean, that's the main reason why I'm following the Lord and apprenticing myself to him.
[00:26:36] ZW: I think, in business, when I tell people as I'm like, people will want to follow you, if they know that you care about them as much, if not more than they care about themselves. I feel like the Lord is like that, too. He’s really modeled that for us. I don't think leadership –leadership is hard, but simple. It's like, “Hey, you got to care about these people more, more than you care about yourself, and more than they may even care about themselves.” And that's easy to say, but at times hard to walk out. Because what that looks like sometimes, Jordan, I talked to our head of org development recently, is like, sometimes we give people too much. You could argue too much opportunity to risk, and then they mess up and we got to own it. But you can't have it both ways.
[00:27:26] JR: You're an exceptional leader. I think one thing, exceptional leaders do well, which you've already touched on is, yeah, they create a culture in which risk is encouraged. I think part of that requires the leaders themselves, owning up to failures, when there has been risk, right? You just got to be transparent about that. So, how have you guys done that at Venveo? You talked about failures publicly in an effort to incentivize and encourage more risk.
[00:28:02] ZW: It's a good question. I don't know. I was actually talking to Joey Gilkey, who you know, about this recently. He was sharing with me maybe some failures he'd walked through. And he told me, he was embarrassed about it or something. I was like, “Dude, the thing about failures is it really humanizes you as an individual.” People really respect that more, and they're willing to take risks, and also relate to you and open up to you, because you're not some far off distant person. And Jordan, this is one thing I love about you. You’re like, “Hey, this is really great. But also like, I totally messed this up.” That is what people need. They need to see where the people are messed up as well, because that's what creates trust. You doing really, really good job all the time, actually makes people afraid, because they're like, I'll never live up to that.
[00:28:55] JR: Yeah. Somebody told me early in my career, Jordan will be successful in whatever he does. I understand the sentiment. I appreciate the compliment. But I actually cringed a little bit, because to me, that meant like, Jordan doesn't take big enough swings, or Jordan is just not honest about his failures when he does risk and fail. I don't know. It was like weird that that stung me that way. But it did.
[00:29:21] ZW: I don't know. That's interesting. I mean, if I hear that like, “Oh, Jordan is going to be successful whatever he does.” Obviously, that person has confidence in you. That would make me cringe because I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, this person think I never fail because I fail all the time. I fail a ton.”
[00:29:41] JR: Exactly. It’s how I felt. So, you stepped aside as CEO of Venveo, and you've been spending a lot of time on this new project that I love called The Untold. What's The Untold, Zach?
[00:29:57] ZW: So, The Untold is a, really what it is, is a collection of stories that we've found in business. Let's say, figures, businesses, companies, whatever it might be that you're very familiar with. But we start to peel back the curtain and find, “Well, how did that person achieve success? Or what is the unknown are untold part of that story and what does that relate to? Or how does that relate to the individual?” So, it's very focused on business, very focused on entrepreneurship. But what we're trying to do is find the color and find the, as you will, untold stories, around these very widely known concepts. So, for example, Jordan, there's one we stole from you where you tell the story of Chick-fil-A.
[00:30:41] JR: Yes. Alright, can you tell us? Because I wrote about this in, I think it was Called to Create. But man, I haven't even read that story in like five years. Share that story with our listeners.
[00:30:52] ZW: Yeah. So, it's the I think the late to mid-90s in Atlanta, and the entire executive team of, or most of the executive team from Chick-fil-A is gathered into a boardroom and everybody is freaking out. Because their main competitor, who's now Boston Market, is just blowing up.
[00:31:16] JR: Which is so funny to talk about. When was the last time you went to a Boston Market?
[00:31:21] ZW: In the ‘90s, the mid ‘90s. They're blowing up and everyone's arguing about, “What are we going to do? What are we going to do? They're getting bigger than us. They're growing faster than us. They're eating our lunch, blah, blah, blah.” And everyone's arguing, and everyone's talking about how they need to grow more quickly. Then Truett Cathy, who's the founder of Chick-fil-A, famously starts banging his fist on the table. Everybody gets silent. He goes, and I don't want to butcher this quote, but he says, “If we get better, our customers' demands will get bigger. Basically, who cares about growth? Let's just make the best possible chicken fastfood chain out there, and then we'll get bigger.” And that's what they did.
Actually, I was just researching this this story yesterday, again, Jordan, and Chick-fil-A, there's two really interesting – actually, I'm going to pull this up, make sure I have this correct. Chick-fil-A is the fastest growing franchise out there, and also a store, an individual Chick-fil-A store makes more money than McDonald's, Starbucks and Subway combined.
[00:32:31] JR: That's bonkers. I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. Cite your sources, sir.
[00:32:36] ZW: I'm going to find it.
[00:32:38] JR: That’s crazy if that’s true. I mean, I know the stores print money. But man, that's unbelievable. Alright, so let me ask you a follow up question. Because, again, the whole point of The Untold is telling these untold stories so that people can take away these keys to mastering their craft, and specifically the art of business. And this one tells such a powerful lesson, right? Like better before bigger, better before bigger. But as a founder yourself, how have you done this practically? How do you ensure that you're getting better? Frankly, I think it has to be as you're getting bigger, right? Because businesses grow by nature. So, how do you manage that tension between better and bigger?
[00:33:18] ZW: Oh, man. I don't know. I don't think I have it figured out.
[00:33:24] JR: This is something I've like genuinely struggled with over the years.
[00:33:26] ZW: I think if you boil it down, if you take the Chick-fil-A example. If you're doing such a good job, more people are going to come to you, more people are going to talk about you, and your customers are going to ask for more. If you're having to fight for that a lot, and you're seeing churn, for example, in our industry, like agency industry. That's a really good indicator. So, I think boiling down that quality, what is the best leading indicator of quality in your organization, is how you do it.
So, for us, it'd be referrals and client renewals. If we have referrals, and we've climbed renewals, we know our quality is really good. People are seeking us out, like that to us tells us that our quality is where it needs to be and we can grow. Jordan, you can look at things like pipeline and things like that. But I think boiling it down to make it really simple as the best.
[00:34:17] JR: Yeah, but this is really good and really practical. It's getting really clear on what those metrics are, that are leading indicators of quality. So, yeah, for you guys, it's retention, it's referrals. For me as an author who primarily sells books through my email list, it's open rates, devotional. That's what I measure. Every week, week in week out. It's interesting for me, I really – it’s funny, maybe two years ago, a year and a half ago, something like that. I really felt convicted of this very topic 'better before bigger'. And so, my team and I, we went an entire quarter where we set zero goals related to growth, right? So, we grew, like the podcast audience grew, my email list grew or whatever. But we weren't intentional about it, it was all about getting better before we get bigger. It was measuring customer satisfaction and measuring open rates and measuring Amazon reviews and like whatever. That was a game changer for us. That's when things really started to take off at a greater degree.
[00:35:27] ZW: Talk about it more. So, you just focused solely on quality?
[00:35:35] JR: Yeah, so for me, it was open rates of my devotional emails, ratings of the YouVersion Bible app plans that I published during that three-month period. It was number of people showing up for some of our paid products, like the call that we have with our paid products, like the Redeeming Your Time coaching community, which were starting at the time. Yeah, it's like that type of stuff. It was engagement, it was quality stuff. But it was not growing the email list by 25%. Or get 10,000 new people listening to the podcast. There was nothing like that in the mix that my team was focused on for those three months.
[00:36:13] ZW: So, what did you walk away with? Was there any strategy or takeaway that you got from that?
[00:36:19] JR: I love that the interview has shifted.
[00:36:22] ZW: I know. That's what people want to know. Show us how this thing works, man.
[00:36:26] JR: Wait, so what was your question?
[00:36:29] ZW: If you had to look at that season, is there one thing you walked away with, and you said, “Hey, we do this every day now, because of that season.”
[00:36:35] JR: We got obsessive about open rates on emails. But the biggest takeaway was, there are seasons in a business, where focusing exclusively on quality and getting better, could be a really wise decision. Just because that laser focus and just being intentional and seeing something so radical, like saying, “We're going to be intense about not growing this quarter.” That's a radical thing to say in a business. But it elevates everybody's understanding of the importance of quality, and just getting better at the things that we already have. So, I don't know. I really liked it. We haven't done it since then, because honestly, that one quarters worth of work has had an impact for a really long time. But we'll probably do it again. If we ever see quality starting to slip again, really significantly. I'll make that call again, and get us all focused on quality for at least an entire quarter. Wait a second. I'm flipping the mic back to you. I'm not letting you do this.
[00:37:40] ZW: Sorry, I'm just such a fanboy.
[00:37:43] JR: I know. I know, and vice versa. So, give me one more story from The Untold that illustrates a key to mastering our vocations. What's another one of your favorite stories you've told?
[00:37:55] ZW: Oh, man, there's a bunch. Well, if we stay on the topic of culture, I'm telling you, I did one long-form, and most of our content is on YouTube. We've got short-form on like Instagram and things like that. And we’ve get a website that you can check it out called attheuntold.com. But I'm trying to lean more into long-form because I think you can dissect and really uncover stories better.
I did one on Zappos, which I know you're a big fan of, and Tony Hsieh, and how they built this crazy, cool culture. Where they basically try to – they give people the opportunity to quit and pay the money. But there's a lot behind, “Well, why did he try that? How did he come to the idea of like, building such an incredible culture for this like E-commerce company, before that was like really such a thing?” But for me, he saw – and the thing I took away from the story is, you’re here and you’re like, “Oh, well, Zappos pays its employees to quit.” That's the headline. Okay, that's really interesting. I want to learn more. But his backstory is he started and founded a company in the ‘90s, made like hundreds of millions of dollars, but hated his job. That's why he sold the company. It wasn't that he wanted to sell a bunch of money. He just hated the culture.
So, he took Zappos, and he wanted to build a culture, basically after his own image, where people love to work, they love what they do. What he saw was that people really enjoyed their job, the quality of output. So back to that quality component, increased exponentially. And so, for me, I always care a lot about like, “Hey, do people really enjoy their job? At the end of day, do they like their their coworkers?” Which, we measure that. And, “Do they enjoy what they do day to day?” Because if they do, then we know our clients are going to be happy. We know the quality of work is going to be really good. We know that other people are going to enjoy their job, and it's like the snowball effect. So, we don't necessarily pay people to quit but we do care quite a bit about making sure we've got the right people in the organization.
[00:39:49] JR: I love the Zappos story. Did you read Delivering Happiness?
[00:39:53] ZW: I haven't read it. It's on my list. I haven't read it. Everyone quotes that book.
[00:39:57] JR: It's kind of old. It's probably 12 years old now. But it's a classic for a reason. I don't know if I told you the story, but years ago, when I was running this business called Citizinvestor, me and my co-founder got to spend like an entire day with Tony and his team, Tony Hsieh and his team.
[00:40:14] ZW: What was that like?
[00:40:16] JR: In Tony's apartment, in Vegas. It was wild.
[00:40:20] ZW: That sounds surreal.
[00:40:21] JR: It was surreal. It’s incredible. I mean, he was only in there for like five minutes or whatever. But yeah, it was pretty amazing. But what was cool, we got to tour Zappos. They talked us through their like, culture book, whatever, because we were just really studying how great companies build great cultures. And man, they've figured it out for a type of business that’s really customer service focused, right? It doesn't translate perfectly to every type of business. But if you're super interested in company culture, that book is actually still a really good resource, Delivering Happiness.
Alright, speaking of books, good segue. Three questions I wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you tend to recommend or gift most frequently to others, Zach?
[00:41:06] ZW: So last year, the book I gave out the most to people was this wonderful book called Redeeming Your Time.
[00:41:12] JR: No, stop.
[00:41:14] ZW: I did. Actually, I promise you I did. It was the number one book I gave out. A second to that was The Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger.
[00:41:21] JR: So good.
[00:41:23] ZW: Oh my gosh, phenomenal. I'm reading this book. I mean, the book, it's a great story. Excellent story. But there's so many like little nuggets of business insight in there. The second half of the book is basically an education acquisition.
[00:41:38] JR: Yeah. Every chapter, how Disney acquired Marvel. How Disney acquired Lucasfilms. How Disney acquired all these other brands. It's amazing.
[00:41:49] ZW: Yes, I love that one. Also, I love Deep Work. Such a good one by Cal Newport. You always recommended that book to me before I've started reading it, and such a good book. I'd say those two or three are really good.
[00:42:03] JR: Those are good.
[00:42:04] ZW: Yeah, they're good.
[00:42:06] JR: In didn't I send you down the Disney book? Didn’t you read Disney War?
[00:42:12] ZW: Yeah, Disney War for those of you who aren't familiar with it, Disney War book written in the early 2000s.
[00:42:17] JR: Early 2000s, yeah.
[00:42:18] ZW: Basically, catalogs, not Iger, what's his name?
[00:42:20] JR: Michael Eisner.
[00:42:22] ZW: Michael Eisner. Thank you. His career, but it's like an encyclopedia. So, for perspective, if you look at Bob Iger’s book on Audible, it's like six or seven hours or something like that. Don't quote me on it. Disney War is, no joke, 25 hours.
[00:42:34] JR: It's crazy. But it is so well written. If you want a biography of the Walt Disney Corporation, from really in the heyday, like when Disney gotten massive. It's at 1984 to 2004, that's Eisenhower's tenure. Go read this book. It's so good. And then go read Bob Iger’s book, because Iger took over for Eisner. It's kind of the passing the baton of the books. It's really good.
Alright, Zach, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences their pursuit of great work?
[00:43:09] ZW: Great question. I want to give you a good answer. Can I give an extreme?
[00:43:16] JR: Yeah. We've gotten some some big ones.
[00:43:19] ZW: I mean, this is controversial. I'm always like, let me hear a controversial topic. But if you get somebody, let's say you get Bono, it'd be interesting. I'd like to hear Mel Gibson. Interestingly, I don't know if you knew this, but the most pirated film ever, is the Passion of the Christ.
[00:43:36] JR: Really?
[00:43:36] ZW: Yeah. I heard that from somebody. I'll find the source on it too. But interesting. I mean, those people I'd love to hear from like, their perspective on faith.
[00:43:44] JR: I like the Bono answer. I'm not sure we've gotten it before. I was just listening to Joshua Tree the other day. U2’s, I think, most famous album. One of the greatest albums of all time.
[00:43:59] ZW: Yeah, phenomenal.
[00:44:01] JR: Man, there's some deeply spiritual lyrics in this album. He is really wrestling with the gospel in the album, so that would be a ton of fun. Alright, last question. Pick one thing from our conversation today that you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off.
[00:44:21] ZW: I would say that, regardless of where you are in your journey with the Lord, I think he cares more about your dreams than you do. We tend to feel like we have to convince the Lord to give us our dreams and give us the things we want. But I think the reality is, he cares about them much more than we do, and when we have that perspective, we move more to partnership.
[00:44:45] JR: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?
[00:44:47] ZW: I don't want to make broad accusations, but I think Christians as a whole, we have like such an incredible resource, which is the Lord in our journey. His perspective, His power, His insight is immeasurable. You can’t even compare it to anything. But I think sometimes we feel we have like a lack mindset around like, “Oh, I got to convince the Lord to do these things for me, and I need him on board to make this thing happen.” I think for me, if I peel back my story, I've walked through that a lot, where I was like, “Lord, why aren't you helping me here?” Knowing that he does deeply care about what I'm walking through more than I do, will change the perspective of, well, if you're walking through something difficult, not only is he there with you in it, but his perspective is, there’s some piece of gold or some nugget that you're gleaning, and you're getting from this moment, that's going to help you when you achieve success, or you achieve that next thing, whatever it might be.
[00:45:47] JR: That’s good. Or failure, right? I guess the one thing we forget about in the church, success isn't promised us, Romans 8:28 does not mean that something better is around the corner. But what is in stores, Romans 8:29, our sanctification. God using all things for our good which is conformed to the image of His son.
Zach, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day serving your team, your customers, your family, through the ministry of excellence. And just thank you for the reminder of the call on each Christ-follower, to do the work well, but to do the work with God, in communion with Him, relying on Him so that we can have greater fearlessness in the world today.
Guys, if you want to learn more about Zach and his new project, The Untold, you can learn more at theuntold.com. Zach, thanks for being here.
[00:46:44] ZW: Awesome, Jordan. Thank you again for having on the show and thank you for doing the show. Thank you for all you do. It's awesome. Super helpful, beneficial to myself, and I'm sure to a ton of your listeners out there as well.
[00:46:55] JR: Thanks, brother.
[OUTRO]
[00:46:58] JR: I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Seriously, go check out The Untold on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, wherever. I love the content Zach's putting out. I like to say, five-star content, it is 10-star content. It’s so good.
Hey, if you're enjoying this show, The Call to Mastery, do me a huge favor. Go take 30 seconds and rate the podcast on a scale of one to five stars, whatever you think is fair, on Apple, on Spotify, wherever you rate your podcasts. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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