The “Design Jackie Robinson” on work as prayer
How Wilson came to be the shoe industry’s first Black shoe designer, how work can be a form of prayer, and why he chose Philippians 2 to be printed in his Nike shoes.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals but who work as podcasters, pilots, and chemists? That's the question we explore every week.
Today, I'm posing it to Wilson Smith. He just retired as a Senior Design Director at Nike who led the designs for the Air Jordan brand, no big deal, and brought shoes to market for the likes of Serena Williams, Andre Agassi, and Roger Federer, named by Black Enterprise magazine as one of the top African-American designers in the United States and has been hailed as the Design Jackie Robinson for the role that he has played as the industry's first black sneaker designer.
Wilson and I sat down to talk about how he came to be the first black shoe designer, how work in general and design work specifically can be a form of prayer. And we also talked about why Wilson chose Philippians 2:3 to be printed in one of the Nike shoes that he's responsible for designing. You guys are not going to want to miss this episode with my new friend, Wilson Smith.
[EPISODE]
[0:01:25] JR: Wilson Smith, a legend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:28] WS: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm honored. I love what you're doing.
[0:01:33] JR: Thanks, man. Hey, what shoe are you wearing today? I got to ask. You’re shoe dog. Come on.
[0:01:36] WS: Brother, I am a shoe dog, but I'm a shoe dog in my home and I'm wearing my slippers. What a sad reality, but I did wear early today. What did I wear? I tend to wear simple slip-ons when I'm not in an important meeting.
[0:01:51] JR: So, I'm at home, in my home studio, I am shoeless, but I did bring, I did bring my newest pair of custom Nikes. So, I'm the cheapest person in the world, but every time I release a new book, I like to design a pair of custom Nikes based on the colors of the book cover.
[0:02:09] WS: That is so cool.
[0:02:10] JR: So, this book behind me, Five Mere Christians, this is my version in shoe form and on the back.
[0:02:16] WS: That is so outstanding.
[0:02:18] JR: Isn't that great?
[0:02:18] WS: I hope that you wear it to like your openings and you kind of let people inside on your sense of style.
[0:02:24] JR: Well, I don't have much of a sense of style, but when I speak, I show up in a black t-shirt, jeans, dark jeans, and my custom Nikes. I love it. So, you were at Nike for 41 years.
[0:02:38] WS: Forty-one years. Yes.
[0:02:40] JR: It’s crazy.
[0:02:40] WS: I had no idea when I started out. Honestly, I even felt at the time I was praying about the journey and I felt like the Lord was almost going to say I was just going to be there for a limited point in time. But so, it kind of helped me through the whole 41 years to think, well, I may be leaving any minute, and it kind of never happened. But it's relatively limited to eternity. So, I guess it's limited.
[0:03:04] JR: I like that. You started there in the early eighties, in corporate interior design, design shoe rooms, stores, offices, et cetera. How did you eventually come to design shoes? What's the story there?
[0:03:13] WS: Well, you're right. If you might see the movie Air, I just reference it because it because it's been recent and it's –
[0:03:20] JR: It's a great movie.
[0:03:21] WS: It's a very good movie. A lot of great truths in it. But anyway, the movie Air was about the era that I joined the company. It's kind of, it's depicting that kind of beginning with Michael Jordan. So, I came in at the end of ‘83. So, that would have been right before it. The vibe of the movie is so on point, especially being a corporate interior designer. When I looked – I was looking of the peripheral of the video, of the movie, and I thought, “Man, that looks just like what we were doing.” So, it captured it well.
I was honored because I studied architecture, and I came out of school at University of Oregon, and I felt – and I worked for a while, but I was going to be – my goal was to be the next amazing
architect, like, sometimes I say Frank Lloyd Black. That was my goal. That was my goal. But I worked for a while for a major architecture firm in Portland and then there was recession and I get, I would get laid off and rehired, laid off. So, then my new roommate said, “Hey, Nike was hiring someone to do like stores and layouts of offices.” And I thought, “Oh, great. If I go to work for the client, maybe I don't get laid off as much as the firm.”
The great thing was I went to Nike. Well, I was, here's the blessed providence of the Lord. I first met him, worked for Nike as a guy named Tinker Hatfield, who ultimately ends up being the “shoe guru” of the industry, but he's the corporate architect at the time. So, he hired me to do – to assist him in architecture. Eventually I got a job there, after about 15 months of bugging him, but it was great. But then the interesting thing was all of a sudden, we went through what they called the sneaker wars, which I doubt if many people you may remember, you're probably just a kid when that was happening.
[0:05:10] JR: I was a kid, but I've actually read up on this because I'm fascinated by the corporate history of Nike and Shoe Dog and all this stuff. So, I've read about the sneaker wars.
[0:05:19] WS: So, the sneaker wars was really kind of centered around, say Reebok and Nike. Reebok had kind of made this amazing, cute woman’s aerobic shoe. And I'm not going to go too deep into all of that. But regardless, the way the shoes express themselves became more paramount. You have like the Jordan’s, which were more about the athlete and other expressions. So, we went through a time of recession where we're laying off some of our company, we're kind of shrinking the company. And they called me to the back room and I thought, “This is it. I was walking the plank because my coworker had just lost her job.” And they said to me, “How would you like to design shoes?” And I said, “I always wanted to do that.” I had never even really thought of it, but it was one of those kind of, it was because shoes weren't really designed at the time. So, anyway, so I was like, “Okay, great. Yes, shoe design.”
Honestly, I'd gone home that night going, “Lord, what has happened to my career?” I mean, because I'm thinking now I'm designing shoes. I mean, I was going to be an architect and I think now I'm doing shoes, I didn't know. You see, in today's vernacular, whatever, shoes is a cool thing. But at that time, that was not it.
[0:06:28] JR: It sounded crazy.
[0:06:29] WS: Yes. It's amazing how things – yes, right. But that's how things evolve. I mean, it's a difference. So now, I'm like going, “Wow.” The Lord was the one who chose to – He promotes one thing and like puts down another, and He's the one who shines the light on the industry. So now, we watch movies about Michael Jordan being signed. And then I'm just saying that was not the deal back then.
One of the fun – it'll be real quick in these stories. One of the things for me, the day that Michael first came to the headquarters. I remember a memo kind of went out. I was just there probably six months in maybe. I’m working downstairs, and a memo came out and it said, that Michael Jordan was going to be coming upstairs. So, we invited all the company to come out and kind of welcome him when he comes for the visit. I remember I looked at them, I was kind of like, “Michael Jordan.” I thought, “Oh, he was that guy in the Olympics.” There was what my mind goes. When it was like one o'clock in the afternoon and everybody kind of got up to go upstairs and like, I've got so much work to do. I stayed downstairs and worked. I did not even go up.
[0:07:39] JR: That’s hilarious.
[0:07:39] WS: So, I missed the moment.
[0:07:42] JR: You missed the moment.
[0:07:43] WS: I missed the moment. So, sometimes you got to trust, but honestly at that time I did not feel – now I had the joy of down the road working with Mr. Jordan and other things. But that was the first moment.
[0:07:55] JR: Yes. You eventually became senior designer of the Jordan brand, and I think I read about this in this article hailing you as quote, “The Design Jackie Robinson,” given that you were the industry's first black sneaker designer, did you know that?
[0:08:11] WS: Right.
[0:08:11] JR: When Nike said, “Hey, Wilson, come design some shoes.” Did you find that later on? What's the story there?
[0:08:17] WS: Well, okay, so I saw that article in footwear news or whatever said that. And I was like, quite honored. I mean, imagine if you're like reading, “Wow.” That's quite the comment because I think of myself, I think of Jackie Robinson and all the racial hurdles that he handled and all of what, his racial slurs, death threats, denied basic services that he would travel around, especially in the South. So, all that Jackie Robinson went through, I'm thinking, I'm the first. I'm the Jackie Robinson of the shoe designers. I mean –
[0:08:51] JR: That's not your story. Is that what you're saying?
[0:08:54] WS: Well, what I'm saying is that phrase, even though it's true, even though I was the first black designer, and all of us a lot of times can recognize that we're maybe the first, maybe even the first Christian in a context. But we can recognize that we're a first something, and so it's an opportunity to understand the notion of first. Yes, I am the first black designer in the footwear industry, and I'm honored by that. I'm honored that that actually means something because once again, the Lord has shined a light on that industry to make that matter and has given me a platform now that I have an opportunity to share my testimony or even to talk to you. I mean, so that's honor.
So, what am I saying? It is the truth, but I’m only saying is that people weren't throwing Twinkies at me while I was –
[0:09:40] JR: Correct. It was just like, “Hey, we need someone to design great shoes and you’re a great designer. Go design shoes.”
[0:09:47] WS: The fun thing is, my boss is a guy Tinker Hatfield, a lot of the audience may know Tinker, being a great architect or a very great architect. And then my background in architecture, I remember my buddy, my pastor friend down in Eugene, when he had heard, “Oh wow, Tinker and Wilson are starting to design shoes.” He says, “I think sneakers are going to start getting complicated.”
[0:10:12] JR: And sure enough.
[0:10:13] WS: Sure enough. These architects get a hold of it, it’s like, “Oh man, this shoe needs to speak to this and speak to that and it needs to really respond to all these different movements.” Next thing you know, you got a sneaker for this or that or the other. She's got a little complicated.
[0:10:30] JR: That's good. Hey, I'm curious, Wilson, what do you now know experientially about your Heavenly Father that you don't think you would know had it not been for Him calling you to be a pioneer in your field?
[0:10:45] WS: Oh, wow. What an awesome question. Faithfulness is maybe the number one thing that I think I know that I've been able to grow into over years of all sorts of levels of engagement. So, faithfulness definitely speaks to me. It's like the visions that say my mom or my dad had, my mom or whatever about, “Hey, you're special and you're going to be,” and she wanted me to be an architect because architects make lots the money. That was kind of her call on my life when she saw me as a five-year-old kid who couldn't stop drawing and being this, and she saw me the trajectory to being a starving artist. She's like, “Hey, you should become an architect. Blah, blah, blah.”
[0:11:29] JR: The one artist that makes money, yes.
[0:11:31] WS: Yes, right. The one artist that makes money. Exactly. So, that was Mom's vision. “Hey, the Lord is faithful.” I was like, “Okay, I'll be an architect.” Honestly, when I was told to design shoes, that's the failure I felt first was, “Oh, no, I'm not that architect that mom wanted me to be.” Totally fulfilled what I think her essence of what she was feeling called to steer her son. So, God's faithfulness and that kind of stuff and His faithfulness to really lead us. It's like, I think, do I always feel a voice or hear a voice in the moves of life? Not necessarily, but I do get kind of an unction when it matters. It's almost like a rudder on a ship or something. It's like, you know.
So, I get these kinds of directional rudders that I think will happen on occasion. There are times all throughout my career that I felt the Lord's unction. Even when I recently offloaded from full-time Nike focus, which was at the end of January, just a couple of months ago, that wasn't necessarily a big do it, just do it. That wasn't a big do it for me. But I did feel, I had done some counseling with a good friend who was kind of a little bit of a life coach, and I felt that I wanted to control my narrative a bit. I wanted to make sure that I'm going the right way. I felt the Lord spoke through all of that. So, when I ultimately made that decision, which wasn't a clear voice per se, but it definitely I believe was from the Lord because I've had nothing but fabulous doors open that I would never have been opened if I was still working there three months later.
[0:13:23] JR: Go back to sneakers themselves. I'm curious if you think that God delighted in watching you design sneakers throughout your career. Spoiler alert, I think he did, but why? Like if you agree, how would you put into your own words why do you think God delights in watching his children make sneakers?
[0:13:42] WS: That's awesome. So, in my guts, I grew up in what? Nineties, so I hear that Chariots of Fire. He made me fast. I mean, what can I say?
[0:14:00] JR: “And when I run, I feel his pleasure.” I love it.
[0:14:01] WS: Yes, when I run, I feel his pleasure. Thank you. That was the quote. So, that's what I feel like in all of the creative endeavors that I've been able to do, I feel the Lord has made me creative, and that's part of what I get to do. I mean, maybe to give a shout out, one of my favorite inspirational creatives might be Bono or somebody, just in terms of what God uniquely created him to do and to be. What an interesting role I think that he and his music has played over the years to a lot of people and kind of almost welcoming in so much. Let me give a little shout out to Bono while I'm on it. One time I remember I got a DVD of his, a long time ago from a concert. The background of the start of the streets have, where the streets have no name. At the start of the song, Edge is doing his really great guitar piece. Bono, softly, lowly. And you can't even hear it hardly, but he says, “All that really matters is that the people praise your name. All that really matters is the people praise your name.” He says that over and over, while people are screaming, and it's just doing is an incredible guitar.
I just thought that but I heard it and I played it for friends going, “Isn't this – you can hear it.” But all I'm just saying is, maybe that's what I would say about designing sneakers, all that really matters are the people phrase your name.
[0:15:30] JR: It's so good.
[0:15:30] WS: In some ways, that's the same vibe. So, that's the creative thing.
[0:15:35] JR: That's so, so good. Bono is near the top of our list of people would love to have on this show. I think he's deeply thought about how his faith is influencing his work. Yes, I think about you, man, Wilson. I'm trying to imagine you 40 years at Nike. I think God delights in watching you design these shoes because you're a child, first and foremost. Right? Secondly, because he's the creator God who called us to create in his image for the very beginning of the story.
[0:16:00] WS: In the beginning, God created, it’s like if you want to put together one of those sentences, noun, verb, I mean, in the beginning, God created, I mean, that's – and then he made us in his image and I really think the creative piece is huge. I felt his pleasure in designing, and I feel that design is a form of prayer. I mean, it's –
[0:16:23] JR: Tell me more about that. Yes, come on.
[0:16:25] WS: It's an interesting, as you design, you're almost, and this is all creatives, because you can listen to them. Michael Jackson talked about it and a lot of people talk about, “Hey, the creator is working through me at 2am, and I need to be working on this riff, right now.” So, you feel his pleasure, you sense his direction. So many times for me, honestly, on some of my best designs, I have been lost in worship, sketching for that initial thing. Because you kind of get this initial thing, that initial spark of a drawing that all of a sudden people go, all of a sudden you go, that's it.
[0:17:09] JR: That's it.
[0:17:08] WS: The amazing thing about it is, is I'll do a page of Sparks. I'll do a page of Sparks, and I'll show it to the marketing lead and developer or whatever afterwards, but I know the one that is the one that I believe is it, and everybody goes to that one. Because everybody gets it, so it speaks, but it's – and I know that many times, many times I've been lost in worship when I've been designing. All of a sudden, the next thing I look at, there it is. I mean, I could show you pictures of shoes. I've got some of those sketches still around that were the revelation of the spirit when it came to design, when it came to design.
[0:17:46] JR: I love this. And there's nothing better than that's it moment. I felt that in writing lines in books, coming up with frameworks, writing my kids' books, I get that. What makes that moment worship? Because Christian and non-Christian have that that's it moment, that eureka moment. What turns that into worship? Is it simply the acknowledgement of God as the source of that creative spark? Talk more about this.
[0:18:13] WS: Yes, that's interesting. I would say that, like I say, it's a good design as a form of prayer. I've heard another expression, although this is a different expression, but good architecture is like frozen music. Okay. Well, that's one thing. No, I won't go there, but good design being a form of prayer is you're drawing, you're kind of creating, and all of a sudden you just kind of, “Okay, I'll follow that. I'll follow that.” You're literally following the hand of the spirit on a page when you're working on it. You're literally getting clarity and you're getting clarifications and insights. That is very much a prayer.
So, I think that God is involved in our creative endeavors. I think he gave edge to the groove on where –I mean, I just think, I think that we're following create move. Because the Lord, I think the Lord made us curious. He made us lovers of the new and the exciting and maybe that you take us to a different place. I think that, oftentimes design takes what has been done and says, “What about this?” It takes you a little bit different place and jazz, jazz has been or hip-hop even have been wonderful examples of taking – jazz takes big band and twist it or hip-hop remixes it.
So, you're basically – so music is a great example of this. I think great design kind of builds on where we're at as humans to keep us curious and excited and engaged and it's creative and God is creative. So, it all builds on itself. I say the Lord is involved in all of that.
[0:20:02] JR: It's good. Speaking of good design, I read in this interview you did, you said, “Good design performs for people.” I love the way you said that. “Good design solves problems. It's not just beautiful, it solves problems.” I love that emphasis on both beauty and function, because I think all throughout Scripture, we see God creating with both beauty and function, right? Like culture tends to celebrate that functional part, utility and what is the purpose of this thing is what does it do? But what does it mean to you that God also cares about beauty, that beauty in and of itself has value?
[0:20:36] WS: You know what, Jordan, I love that. I love that question. I would say it's interesting to me. I think some people play around the beauty side or some people lay on the performance side. They're almost left and right, but I won't go –
[0:20:51] JR: Yes, there's two ditches, right? They are like two extremes, yes.
[0:20:54] WS: Two extremes, but then if you – and what I've heard, for example, people even say your brain is left and right. People say that the right brain is the creative and the left brain is the more the functional or whatever. The right brain people, the more creative people who think of structure and can see the creative structure or the more people who are driven by function that can then engage it in a beautiful way or whatever.
It's the mixture, it's the blending of the two that are the most successful businessman, the most successful people on the planet. There's intention behind all of the masterworks of Beethoven or MJ or whoever. There's intention in all of this stuff. And it could be either MJ. I'm not going to – I don't have to specify which MJ I'm talking about there, but there's intention, there's intention in all of their functional beauty. Yes, I think that now architecture said form follows function. I mean, that was the first, one of the great, what would you call it? Mies van der Rohe. I'm not sure. Just the whole thinking of the Bauhaus was formed a function in architecture.
But in the same way, I would say that that design thinking is all about that kind of thinking. In some ways, at Nike, we would kind of the form would take on – the form would kind of elaborate on the function. It would kind of express the function or it kind of takes it to the – it really adds beauty and levity and life and Nike Air. Because the notion. Air, for example, Bill Bowerman, the Nike founder along with Phil Knight, who's a legendary track coach at University of Oregon, he was trying to help his runners function and perform better around the track.
So, he would be working on the rubber compounds and tracks because track surfaces were changing and he's working all this stuff, but he also was trying to make the shoe as light as possible. If the shoe could cross the finish line and fall apart after it crossed, fine. That was kind of his perception of what he needed for performance. Well, in the same way, that's where air became a thing at Nike. Because if you could bring air into some parts of the heaviest parts of the shoe, which is generally under the foot where you're trying to, where you're basically trying to kind of have the body come in contact with the earth and you need the most structure in the most form. So, if you can add air to that midsole or whatever, that's light and that's lighter and people think, “Hey, they intuitively get it.” So, Nike Air became a thing.
That was part of my joy, one of probably my most argument, most famous shoe would have been the More Uptempo. The More Air Uptempo, which writes the word air as big as I can on the side of the shoe. But part of that was blowing up that whole notion of people, air and what that means.
[0:24:04] JR: I love that insight. I don't think I've ever thought about that way. But yes, the most successful people, the most successful brands, the most successful products, don't fall into either beauty or function, they combine them. I think the air is a beautiful example of that, right? And it makes sense if we are made in the image of a God who creates with beauty and function, that the most successful products, the most neighbor loving products would follow that same formula, right?
[0:24:28] WS: Exactly, I mean, you look at every tree and not only are the leaves and the structure incredible, there's no two of them that are alike on the whole planet. It's unbelievable, the creative, and it's awesome that we could see this, but who knows, there could be multiple amazing things going on throughout the universe that none of us have ever seen –
[0:24:49] JR: That's right.
[0:24:48] WS: – totally just did it.
[0:24:52] JR: If you thought about God's creative character throughout the years, I'm curious if it's led you to fight harder for originality. Knowing that the source of every original idea, every creative, truly creative idea, is at work within you, has that made you, I guess, have a greater sense of faith and belief that you can come up with more original ideas because that Holy Spirit is working through you. Does that make sense?
[0:25:19] WS: Right. It does make sense. Okay, what I would say to that, and the scripture that kind of comes to mind is when Apostle Paul says in Acts, I think it's Paul, who says in Acts, he says, “I've become all things to all men in the hope that I might save some.” I think that he's saying that.
[0:25:35] JR: Paul said that. I'm not sure if it was in Acts, but yes, he said that.
[0:25:37] WS: Oh, yes. Okay, it may not have been in Acts, not sure. I think – but anyway, what I like about that scripture is a lot of times it's not so much that you create the most amazing work of art that is so phenomenal that maybe no one can relate to it, but you have a target in a sense. You have a person you're talking to and you need to hit it in that zone. You need to go, you need to go somewhere in that zone.
For example, I mentioned, the Air More Uptemp. I would almost get up and go across the room and get the shoe.
[0:26:08] JR: Grab it. Grab it. Yes. Come on. Oh, my gosh. I wish you guys could see this, Wilson is running across the room. I hope we don't cut this. He's going into his dope shoe case.
[0:26:22] WS: You're so hilarious.
[0:26:25] JR: This is amazing.
[0:26:27] WS: Okay. So, this shoe, the Air More Uptempo. So, anyway, when I worked on this, the marketing director said to me, he said, “Hey, write the word air as big as you can on the side of a shoe.” I was like, “Oh, really? Okay.” So, at the time I realized we couldn't do a full-length airbag like the vapor max or whatever. Back then we could just do a heel airbag, a forefoot airbag with two windows, and a midfoot bag. It's like I knew we could do that. I was just kind of sketching a little bit and then I realized that that you the shoe, if you could write the letters Y in two directions and the A and the R are kind of the same letter. They lined up with the airbags. I thought, well, that's got to be as big. It's got forefoot, midfoot, heel support. That's got to be about as big as you could write it on the side of a shoe. Honestly, that was probably 30 minutes of sketching.
Anyways, I thought, well, gee, I thought, the next day, I got to show this to Tinker Hatfield, the great savant guru of the industry, who is my boss, a design genius. So, I take it in, I show it to Tinker, I say, “So, what do you think?” And Tinker goes, he goes, “Well, number one, it's a bad design.” And he says, number two, “You'll sell millions.” But I love that take because to me, it's not so much –I think it shows how good he is at getting something. No, it isn't the most profound. It's not Michelangelo, it's not even Picasso. It is what it is, but it will relate to the person out there who gets aired.
The funny thing was, I remember down the road even the salesforce, there's one guy from the salesforce, they wrote back a whole bunch of comments about this shoe, real positive comments, and one guy wrote, “Man, I think that was the best, most profound design that I've ever seen.” I might go, “Oh, okay, maybe for you.” But the reality is, profanity and art is in the eye of the beholder.
[0:28:37] JR: I love it. I love it.
[0:28:40] WS: So, that for me is, yes, I endorse great work, but I endorse connecting to target. I endorse becoming all things on men. I endorse connecting to your end user.
[0:28:51] JR: It's good. Hey, speaking of Paul, you had this TEDx talk about 10 years ago that's terrific. You probably don't remember anything you said in it, but I'm going to remind you something.
[0:29:00] WS: I remember I was quite tired before, because I left the whole night before trying to memorize it.
[0:29:06] JR: That's funny. That's funny. Well, you ended it with Paul's words to Timothy in 1st Timothy 4:12, where he's telling Timothy, “Do not let anyone despise your youth.” Do you remember why you chose that verse? What does that passage meant to you in your career, Wilson?
[0:29:21] WS: Oh man, that's cool. Gosh, thanks for paying attention to my world and my journey. When I did that, honestly, a part of it was that I was speaking, it was a TEDxUOregon. So, I was speaking down at U of O and I was talking to a crowd that were students and students and key professors and so I wanted to kind of encourage them as well. I wanted them to realize, hey, great ideas come out of this place, including the company that I worked for.
So, the notion of not despising your youth, I mean, I felt I was journeying through that literally doing a TED Talk because I was like, I'm trying to be as profound as all this stuff that I've seen online. But I also wanted to bring scripture into them because I don't often hear too many scriptures in TED Talks, to be honest. And so, that was part of the take. And I do think that when it comes to almost anything, if I'm the first black designer, if I'm the youngest designer, if I'm a female, or whatever is kind of the lesser perceived, do not despise the origins of God's call on your life. Step out into the thing that God has called you to do, no matter what.
So, that's what I think I identify with, and I was trying to relate maybe to the people in the room. But the second thing I would say was, I actually later got to do another, whatever, another TEDx. It was not what they call a TEDx salon, which I thought was better. I should actually send you that.
[0:31:02] JR: Send me that. I’d love to watch it.
[0:31:04] WS: Because that was not online, but a TEDx salon there, I referenced, this was in 2018, I think I referenced the scripture Philippians 2:3, which is consider others more significant than yourselves.
[0:31:17] JR: It's one of the passages I've talked about the most on this podcast. Yes.
[0:31:20] WS: Oh, awesome. Really, man. Well, that is the scripture that I was referencing. And actually, this was a version of the More Uptempo. They did that told my story, and it actually, I don't know if this is the – yes, you maybe can't see it, but on the inside that scripture is written on the shoe. So, it's pretty fun. I was honored because they asked me in the process of making the shoe design. They said, “Well, give us a quote that we can put in the shoe.” I thought, a quote. Right then and I thought, “Well, I remember I did that Ted quote,” and I flashed it. I said, “What about this quote?” And they said, “Okay.” So, they put that in the shoe and the cool thing was afterward, when the shoe was first coming out people were like, “Oh, what's this Nike shoe with scriptures in it?” Because it didn't say Philippians 2:3, but people said –
[0:32:08] JR: Yes, sure.
[0:32:10] WS: And the fun thing to me is, hey, I'm having people stand on the word.
[0:32:15] JR: Come on, that's so good.
[0:32:16] WS: So, anyway, yes, and I think it was, and now that's become another, for me, honestly, Jordan, I think that's almost become a stronger life verse in terms of wanting to encourage people to not be about themselves or just flaunting themselves as we all kind of do on social media, media and everywhere, kind of like being the coolest. But really about considering others more significant than yourselves and really the notion of empathy and the opportunity of empathy of really thinking about others and thinking and projecting into that and then allowing that to be what you're about, and in humility. I think, sadly, our culture does not promote right now, so there's an opportunity in that in all of us.
[0:33:07] JR: Amen. And Christ is the example, which is exactly what Paul's talking about in Philippians 2. We say we want to image Christ at work. Go memorize Philippians 2.
[0:33:19] WS: No doubt, man. Who in the form of God did not see it as something to be –
[0:33:27] JR: Let's preach the word. Let's do it.
[0:33:29] WS: Yes, you go for it.
[0:33:31] JR: Starting verse three, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others in your relationships with one another have the same mindset as Christ Jesus who being in the very nature God did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage, rather he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant. Amen.
[0:33:57] WS: Brother, what I love is even when I chose that particular scripture, I didn't think of it in the context that you just brought forth. I didn't continue it. You're right, it continues just like Psalms 22 continues from what Jesus accomplished on the cross when he said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” I mean, you really have to consider the whole chapter. You don't just stop at that first verse. In the same way, I appreciate what you just said because there is more to that and it's expressed through Christ. That's awesome.
[0:34:32] JR: Yes, but man, can I encourage you, that verse was printed in all these Nike shoes. Yes?
[0:34:37] WS: Yes, it was.
[0:34:37] JR: Even without Philippians 2:3 being explicitly referenced. Here's the deal, though, people heard the word. They heard the word. They heard the word.
[0:34:48] WS: Not to interrupt, but when the shoe first started getting talked about, they would create this blog or whatever. I mean, when it started to talk being talked about, they'd say, “I want to learn more about the shoe that the Nike's putting out.” The title said, and why does it include a scripture verse? I mean, it's like people knew it was a scripture –
[0:35:08] JR: Oh, yes, people knew.
[0:35:09] WS: – before they knew it was about me. I mean, people knew this shoe and it led with the word. Even though they didn't write Philippians, people knew. So, it shows that God just shows up. You don't need –
[0:35:23] JR: I love it man. I love it man. I love it so much. All right, Wilson, four questions we wrap up every episode with real quick. Number one, look ahead to the New Earth. Scripture is very clear that we will spend eternity on the New Earth with Christ where we will have work to do free from the curse of sin. What job would you love for God to give you to do? Do you want to keep designing shoes?
[0:35:47] WS: Oh, well, I actually, I tend to go for more for my inspirations around architecture. So, I would almost rather go and design, help him with his mansion designs.
[0:35:57] JR: Oh, man. That sounds amazing.
[0:35:58] WS: Or maybe have mansion remodels, not that you would ever need to remodel. I'm sure that his mansions need no help, but I would probably be excited about some of the creative thing. I've also often – this is so bad. I've also often wondered, “Hey Lord, can I give you some help with the marriage supper of the lamb menu and let me pull out my favorite bag of potato chips?” I mean, I would like the job of picking out some of these foods that made me fat that have maybe not been so greater on earth, but could maybe in eternity.
[0:36:32] JR: In resurrected bodies, our glorified bodies. Yes, eat all the potato chips. I love it man. Wilson, if we open up your Amazon order history. Which books do we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends? It could be business books, Christian Libby books, whatever.
[0:36:48] WS: Okay. That’s a really cool question. So, a lot of my Amazon, I'm a very much an audio book guy. I've really, since I could do audiobooks, I'm like, “Yay!” So, I'm like, every time I go for a walk, every time I do anything, I'm listening to my audiobooks. And honestly, this may sound really lame, but lately, I have been recommending a couple great books, not to make a U2 theme, but the Bono book, Surrender is phenomenal.
[0:37:18] JR: Okay, so I haven't read it yet. It's been on my list for a while. Sell me on this book, because I'm not a huge U2 fan, right? So, I'm not super interested in U2, but I love the biographies and memoirs of world-class A+ creators. Is that what this is?
[0:37:35] WS: Brother, you've nailed it, Jordan. I mean, as much as you lean in that direction, I think you would love this because he speaks from a God-centered creative force that's powerful. And honestly, I'd recommend my little audio recommendation because Bono himself reads it. I think, the artistry, especially from a musician, I'd say Bono's book, Questlove did a book, that was amazing. Once again, they're both musical artists, so they understand the studio and they understand possibilities and what you can do in new and nuance of voice. So, those books are amazing. So, I recommend those. There was a recent book I listened to, another music book written on The Wonder of Stevie, which is really fun about Stevie Wonder, and it's called The Wonder of Stevie. It actually covers a series of five or so podcasts that were around kind of his zenith of albums that were five or so, five to seven albums that were kind of at the zenith of his career. So, I highly recommend. Those are just, I don't want to be so narrow.
[0:38:41] JR: Yes, that's good. No, that's good, man. Did you read 12 Notes by Quincy Jones?
[0:38:47] WS: I have not, but that sounds fantastic.
[0:38:52] JR: It's great. It's Quincy, these 12 Notes: On Life and Creativity. I'm going to send you an audiobook.
[0:38:56] WS: Please, oh, thank you. Thank you, and I'll probably listen to it.
[0:39:00] JR: It's really, really great. And then Shoe Dog is my answer to that question. I've given Shoe Dog away to so many people.
[0:39:05] WS: Oh, man, that is so cool.
[0:39:06] JR: I love the story.
[0:39:08] WS: I think it's great, and I think Mr. Knight really told the story well and it take – I mean, I've been trying to write a book and my thinking evolves so much that I keep rewriting it.
[0:39:20] JR: It's tough. It's a tough thing. It's a tough thing.
[0:39:23] WS: But you've done it.
[0:39:24] JR: I've done it. I've done it. If this fool can do it, Wilson, you can do it, my friend. Hey, Wilson, who would you want to hear in this podcast most talking about how their faith has shaped the work that they do in the world? Maybe somebody else at Nike, maybe somebody else in the industry, maybe a musician or architect?
[0:39:39] WS: Brother, I'll give you a shout out of an awesome guy, a friend of mine, a guy named Tobie Hatfield. Tobie Hatfield is actually – I don't know if you know him, but Tobie Hatfield –
[0:39:48] JR: I do know him.
[0:39:49] WS: You know Tobie?
[0:39:50] JR: So, okay, I can't believe we're like just realizing this live. Tobie has been a fan of mine for a long time. You'll love the story.
[0:39:58] WS: Wow.
[0:39:58] JR: I didn't know this. I signed a book deal with Tobie’s son, Kyle, who's at Harvest House, and Kyle's hanging out with his dad. He said, “Oh, I'm really excited about this author I just signed. He writes about blah, blah, blah.” And Tobie’s like, “Are you talking about Jordan Raynor? Did you just sign Jordan Raynor?” He was so excited. “So, Tobie and I are now connected.”
[0:40:20] WS: That is so good. I mean, brother, this is a full circle beyond circle. Because I’ve never even thought, and as you said it, I just thought, Tobie. Tobie’s so on point. They brought Tobie over to Hillsong in Australia to inspire the worship. I mean, inspire the worship team. He is a great, God-fearing, humble. I mean, talk about Philippians 2, that's Tobie Hatfield.
[0:40:47] JR: And he's got a big job at Nike. What's his job at Nike?
[0:40:51] WS: Tobie is a lead innovator and he's a lead innovator and I'll just call that, I don't know what his actual title is. I know that he is basically behind Nike Free, which is almost a spiritual thought, because Nike Free, to me, where Nike Free is fascinating was that kind of came at the beginning, around 2004, was when Free Willy really came out, 2004 Olympic. I think, yes, around 2004. But part of what was great about Free was it's the whole idea of as opposed to maybe shoes becoming more and more and more stacked with more and more stuff, Free was about simplify it, slice up the bottom, and allow the foot to be the foot. Kind of getting at God's already created. He's already done all you need. You almost need to protect the foot from the surfaces that we've created more than the runners are running barefoot.
So, you almost need to protect the foot with stuff. Free is a way of just barely protecting the foot, but allowing the foot to work in the environment. Tobie invented Free. I mean, Tobie is the energy behind Free. Tobie has Bowerman thinking. He gets it. Tobie loves Jesus beyond anything, and now I I'm like going – and Tobie is Tinker's younger brother. The main thing, Tinker –
[0:42:12] JR: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
[0:42:16] WS: Tinker Hatfield is this, the savant.
[0:42:18] JR: I've heard of Tinker.
[0:42:19] WS: Yes, well Tinker is the one that everybody, they celebrated his birthday recently because it was Tinker after his birthday and he was blowing up in social media, just because of all the amazing shoes he's done. He did so many Air Jordans and everything else. He's brilliant. But Tobie is the unsung, brilliant, deeper, I mean, deep thinking brother in Christ. I mean –
[0:42:43] JR: Oh, dude. All right, I got to talk to Tobie. We've exchanged some emails. We got to have him on the show. That's great.
[0:42:49] WS: Yes, Tobie would be awesome.
[0:42:50] JR: Wilson, you get the last word here. You're talking to this global audience of believers. You're doing a bunch of different things vocationally. I know we got some listeners at Nike. We got listeners at Amazon. We've got baristas and entrepreneurs. What's one final thing you'd want to leave with those believers?
[0:43:11] WS: “To all the believers, be still and know that I am God.” I think that's the most one of my richest scriptures in life. Sure, I would love to even articulate my prayers, but before I do too much of that, I need to still and know. It's like, I need to just be quiet and pray about it. I may even get a revelation from the Holy Spirit. And then my next question is, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do with that? Now, be still and know. I just say, design wherever you're at, whatever you're doing, that is the best thing we can do often.
One of my favorite stories I heard, and I'm not sure how true this is because I heard this, but I love the way it speaks. So, we can take it, we can maybe confirm it online. I heard the story that Mother Teresa, they asked her once, Mother Teresa, because she prays extensively, they asked her, you've been known to pray up to four hours a day. I mean, what are you praying about? What are you praying about? And she says, “Well, I mostly just listen.” That's what she said. And then they said, “Wow, wow.” And they're like, “Well, then what do you hear?” And she says, “Oh, he mostly just listens too.” I like that thought because it's like, I think a lot of times there's so much answers can come from just being still and trusting and then allowing the Lord to move through you or waiting until he does or whatever.
But regardless, I think, “be still and know that I am God” is what I would say to everybody, to everything. Because boy, I tell you, I was around a friend the other day who was trying, he's just, he's trying to transition from being a great football superstar to playing, extending his college career and going and going and going. Now, he's really got a transition into a career. All his life has been about football. He approached me, he was like, he was going on and on and on and on and on about all this stuff that he wanted to do. I was like, “Brother, I was like,
you just need to be still. Just be still and let the speak into this and let the Lord kind of tell you, tell us what it to do.” Just at least give him time, because part of it is our own faith in our stuff, as opposed to faith in God.
[0:45:40] JR: That's good, man. That's a great word to end on for this audience of ambitious Christian professionals. Hey, Wilson, I want to commend you, man, for the exceptional work you've done throughout your career for the glory of God and the good of others. And thank you for reminding us today that, man, that design specifically and work in general can be a form of prayer, to be a form of communing and working with the Creator God. Hey, where's the best place for people to keep up with your work if they want to do that, Wilson?
[0:46:08] WS: Oh man, what a great – well, I've got an IG and my IG, @shoeitecture. S-H-O-E-I-T-E-C-T-U-R-E.
[0:46:20] JR: Man, that tracks. That's the perfect IG handle for Wilson Smith. Wilson, man, thanks for hanging out with us today.
[0:46:27] WS: Thank you so much, Jordan. Okay, brother, bless you.
[OUTRO]
[0:46:30] JR: Hey, quick shout out to a former guest here on the Mere Christians podcast, Bobo Beck, for recommending Wilson Smith to us as a guest. If you've got somebody that you would love to hear on this show, even somebody you don't know, let us know right now at jordanraynor.com/contact. Guys, thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next week.
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