Less Bible study, more Bible doing
Why some Christians need less Bible study and more Bible doing, how to translate Jesus in today’s post-Christian culture, and how to avoid making co-workers feel like “salvation projects.”
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[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey everybody, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as legal clerks, agricultural workers, and travel agents? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to Shauna Pilgreen. She’s a church planter in San Francisco who has got a lot of experience translating Jesus into post-Christian context. Shauna and I recently sat down to talk about why some Christians need less bible study and more bible doing. We talked about how to translate Jesus in the workplace and how to avoid making our coworkers feel like salvation project. I think you’re going to love this conversation with my new friend, Shauna Pilgreen.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:00.8] JR: Shauna, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:03.1] SP: Jordan, thanks for having me. I am excited about our conversation today.
[0:01:07.5] JR: Yeah, me too, especially since you’re calling in from one of my favorite cities, San Francisco, right?
[0:01:11.8] SP: Yes, I love that you love this place.
[0:01:14.3] JR: I love this place. So, all right, can we have a little fun here? Can we do like best of San Francisco Shauna and Jordan’s version?
[0:01:20.5] SP: Oh, let’s do it.
[0:01:21.1] JR: All right. Favorite place to eat in the city, anywhere in the city.
[0:01:25.0] SP: Oh, if I’m going for a quick bite, I want Pica Pica, in the Mission, it’s an Arepa place. If I’m going to sit down and fancy, Ben and I are definitely going to – if he’s winning, it’s Epic Steakhouse right on the water. Probably mutually, we would probably choose Kokkari, which is a Mediterranean place in the financial district.
[0:01:46.7] JR: This is what I love about San Francisco. I’ve been to San Francisco, I don't know, a dozen times, I’ve never eaten at any of those three places. So, I got a bonus. My go-to place, I think it’s at Columbus. Do you know Mario’s Bohemian Cigar Shop? Do you know this little place?
[0:02:01.6] SP: No, but anything and that neck of the woods is going to be little.
[0:02:05.7] JR: That’s where it is. It’s sitting right next to – I think it’s Washington Square Park that overlooks that beautiful church and it’s not a cigar shop, contrary to what the name suggests. It’s just this great sandwich and coffee joint and it’s like next level. I go there every single time I’m in town. All right, favorite place to drink in the city, coffee, cocktail, whatever, what’s your go-to spot?
[0:02:28.3] SP: Okay, I’m probably going to say Blue Bottle Coffee.
[0:02:31.4] JR: Okay, you got to, you’re in San Francisco.
[0:02:33.8] SP: Oh, drinks, we like to go to a little place called The District and we love sharing flights of wine there. It’s in so my neighborhood.
[0:02:42.2] JR: Okay, I love it. Have you been to The Interval at Long Now? Oh man, this is the spot. This is the spot. So, there’s this little coffee shop/bar called, The Interval at Long Now that sits right on the San Francisco Bay and it might be my favorite place on earth. It’s incredible, there’s this little backroom with these incredible leather chairs that you can sit at and look at the Golden Gate Bridge while drinking a great cup of coffee or great cocktail.
Check out the interval at Long Now. That’s the spot and I got to check out your place. All right, favorite place to walk in San Francisco?
[0:03:15.9] SP: That’s a tough one. I live super close to the Glen Park Canyon, which you just get lost in the woods there. Love walking through the presidio. I love surprising walks where you just – you know you’re going uphill, so you’re working those muscles but you just get to the top and you just get breathtaking views of the city.
[0:03:34.5] JR: The presidio is a great answer, the presidio is incredible. I had the privilege of going to a conference at the Presidio years ago. I’m like, this is the place to host a conference. Go out and walk around, see the bridge, I love it. All right, hey, so you’re not from San Francisco.
[0:03:47.8] SP: Oh no.
[0:03:48.6] JR: And at a time in which I don't know, at least, most Christians I know are desperate to get out of California. I love that you and your husband were eager to move into California. I’d love for you to talk a little bit about why.
[0:04:00.3] SP: Yes, and I know I’m not from here but 13 years, I definitely feel like a local and this is my home and I love defending our beautiful city but I grew up in Georgia, then grew up in Louisiana, we’ve done church ministry. Up until 13 years ago, we’ve done church ministry in the south, so that’s where we were raised, that’s where we did our lives but we moved here to start a church from scratch downtown in the heart of San Francisco in Market Street and just – it’s won our hearts.
But it’s a thing where, like, we got in it, even if it doesn’t make sense to anyone else, it makes sense to us and it’s been a beautiful life of learning to love a people and a place very different than how we were raised and they’re our people. They are our people.
[0:04:50.0] JR: Yeah. I got a kick out of something you wrote in your book Translating Jesus to that end. You said, “Imagine a world where we lived in our cultural bubble, where we’re only with Christians and did life only with Christians and listened only to Christian music and ate only at Christian restaurants.” Basically, in a way, you’re describing the South. At least, at one point in time.
But what’s funny is, I was reading, I was like, “Man, Shauna, I don’t have to imagine that because sadly, I know a lot of believers who fit that bill.” Who are spending most of their time in Christian subcultural enclaves but you say in the book, and I love this, “The high call of Christ is to live a Godly life among people who have yet to follow Jesus.” Make that case for us here.
[0:05:33.8] SP: Oh my goodness, Jordan, it’s so refreshing, I think it just comes out natural to a Christian, who lives in that Christian world that this is the best place to do life. It’s just in this Christian world but I’ve tasted and seen Jesus outside of the Christian bubble and He is beautiful and radiant and bright and it worked and He is – He changes just how we see the world He created and humans that He created.
And it’s so refreshing to rub shoulders and be with people who think differently, who act differently, who vote differently, who raise their kids differently. Like, all of these things are different but it’s so refreshing to be in a setting and be in conversations where they too are created in the image of God, even though they don’t know it yet.
[0:06:30.5] JR: Yeah, and I think it’s a wonderful encouragement for the mere Christians listening who are doing exactly that, working out in the world in Silicon Valley, in New York, in big marketing firms, and Tuscaloosa, I don't know where, right? But places that are hostile to Jesus so that they can shine the light of Christ in those places.
Speaking of, you pointed out something that, man, I have studied this passage a lot, I don’t know I’ve ever really noticed this. In Luke 2:20, tells us that after they met Jesus, the shepherds of nativity vain, the shepherds “Returned” to the work because it’s always been mere Christians and not religious professionals who have the most opportunity to rub shoulders with those who have yet to hear the good news, right?
[0:07:16.3] SP: Yeah. Well, I mean, we’re going here already Jordan, but why in the world are we as Christians so attracted to the lifestyle of the Pharisees and the Sagisis? When Jesus spent so much time saying, “No.” Like he spent more time rebuking them and like sitting down at tables with people like shepherds and tax collectors, surgeons, and doctors than He did with the religious leaders. Like, that’s who He went to spend his time with and who He was calling like, “Come and follow me.”
Like, go right back into the work, stay in the work that I’ve put you on earth to do. I love that he spoke to the shepherds and then the shepherds went right back to where they were called.
[0:07:59.1] JR: You just asked a really big question though. Why are we so attracted to the lifestyle of the Pharisees and the Sagisis?
[0:08:05.6] SP: Let’s talk about that. I’m intrigued, I’m intrigued but again, I’m doing life right now with a friend who is, she’s in the marketing field and she’s doing really well there. She’s new to faith and so she’s so hungry to know the things of scripture and of Christ and the church but one thing I keep telling her is like, “Whatever you do, as much as you’re learning the things of Christ, like don’t lose sight of the place that God has placed you in. Don’t lose sight of that.”
But I think for us, it’s so tempting to get lost in bible studies and small groups and being at church all the time. If you were to look at our calendars, it’s not working out the way I think God has called us to live. The whole great commission like, “Wait a second, why are we in the church, far more than we are in the world?”
I think that’s where God would say to us, even right now, like, “Wait a second, I love that you love my people who get me but I need you to love the people who don’t get me yet.” I love what you do, Jordan. Your work, it’s like, it’s a calling back to – we’ve got to esteem and value more the work that people are doing today all over the world. Like, you are where His people are and that is a high honor to be serving cups of coffee and tending to people’s bedside and we’ve got to elevate that.
[0:09:35.2] JR: Yeah, and oh, by the way, we’re releasing this, I don't know, a few weeks before Christmas, the vocation that God esteemed when He in His sovereignty chose to place Jesus in the home of somebody who would teach Him a trade. It was not the trade of a pharisee, it was not the trade of a priest. God chose Jesus to grow up in the home of a small business owner, right?
It’s been 80% of his adult life by most estimates just swinging a hammer, right? That work is deeply sacred, deeply meaningful to God but to your point in this book, Translating Jesus, especially right now, given our post-Christian context, as we engage in that work, man, we got to translate Jesus into the language that our coworkers can understand, right? So, how do we go about doing that, Shauna? What’s the framework for translating Jesus in the workplace?
[0:10:29.8] SP: Yeah, and I think another thing that I really push on with this concept is – and again, my audience in this as partly people who are so entrenched in the church that I’m calling you outside the walls, and one way I call you outside the walls is to listen and that is a thing that I think as we’re in the church and we love leading and all of these spaces, leading small groups, leading discipleship groups, we do a lot of talking in the church
And I think the call outside the walls of the church and the call and to do life with other people is this idea of listening and I think with listening, it’s – as we’re in conversations, you know, around the board meeting, the business meetings, it really is finding out a truly, not just saying, “Hey, how are you” But like, “Hey, how are you?” And listening to their response and the beautiful thing about Translating Jesus is that he’s translatable to everyone.
The good news is for everyone. So, in every conversation we’re in, in every relationship we’re in, the idea is to listen for those movements where we can introduce Jesus, we can bring Him into that conversation. I was talking to a girl yesterday, we were in a Zoom call. She lives in Lebanon and just – I was asking her like, “Hey, how are you able to bring the love of Jesus with all that’s going on around you?”
And she said, “Hey, Shauna, the stakes are high and the gospel in this moment just feels right in front of your face.” And so, she was in the pub the other day and a lady just made a comment. She goes, “What’s going to happen to our land?” And my friend, she just said, “Well, you know what? This actually isn’t the land we live on, we got a better land for us.” And so just even in that little quick conversation, she brought it to this eternal view and I think that’s it.
We listen for those moments to bring Jesus into those conversations and the beautiful thing is whatever line of work you’re in, you know the language of your work, and you know the language of Jesus, and so as opposed to bringing the language of work into Jesus, it’s bringing Jesus into the language of your work.
[0:12:35.1] JR: What does that look like practically?
[0:12:36.6] SP: Oh, I mean, I think even just the example of my friend in Lebanon. I talk about this in the book, it’s like we got boundaries that work, we’ve got a work language. It’s how we talk, you know, again, whether we’re serving a cup of coffee or we’re coding, we have a language at work, and so again, it’s just looking for those opportunities, one, to bring it into that work language but I think it’s also, even just looking for those pain points, looking for those conversations where someone is having a hard time at home or at work.
The way I use it a lot, and what I do is to say, “Hey, I’m a person of faith or I’m a person who prays, can I pray with you about that?” I was sitting on the plane the other day and I was asking a lady if she was coming to San Francisco for work or for pleasure and she said her daughter was having a procedure and I just said, “Hey, I’m a person who prays, can I pray for you?” She was like, “I would love that.” And so, that’s when I take another chance like, “Would you like for me to pray with you out loud or in my heart?”
And she just said, “It would be great if you just pray in your heart,” But even when we got off the plane, she was so grateful that I prayed for her. She even said she even felt a peace on the flight. So, I think even just little moments like that and I think it softens the edge for people, and I think it just opens them up to an opportunity for a future conversation that God, you know, might give us the grace to have again.
[0:13:53.5] JR: Yeah, that’s good. I got a book dropping in January called, The Sacredness of Secular Work, where I talk about this, looking for opportunities to steer conversations with those we work or from the surface to the serious to the spiritual, right? Not every conversation is going to do that though, right?
Like, how do you know if, Shauna, if this is the right conversation, to move from the surface level to something more serious to something more spiritual? Like, how do you know, how do you discern when that moment is?
[0:14:25.0] SP: Well, I think just on the surface, and in the every day, which this is who I’m talking to, your listeners, right here, just on the daily you don’t know that but on the daily, it’s like, “I’m going to join the Holy Spirit and what He’s doing today, and if it leads to salvation if it leads to spiritual conversation, awesome” and it leads to – I go to the end of the day and I’m like, “Yeah, I’m not quite sure exactly what will happen today but I’m just trusting God with it.” The pressure’s off of us.
I think the pressure is on us for any of us who feel convicted of like, “I’m not engaging with the gospel in my daily life.” So, there’s a conviction there. I say, lean into that but if you’re leaning into faith conversations and following wherever the Holy Spirit is leading today, well done, keep that up, the pressure’s not on us. So, I love – just think of what Paul says to all of us about just, watering the seed, planting the seed, the harvesting the seed, we’re all in this together, whether you’re in Florida, like you are, you’re in San Francisco where I am.
People are traveling the world. More people are on planes these days than ever before. So, we’re constantly passing each other in these conversations that we’re having and I would just say, it’s just that I did like leaning into where the Holy Spirit is at work and joining Him in that and there’s a freedom. I think that’s probably right now, Jordan, where I just feel like life is so good because I’m figuring out how to lean into these conversations with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis.
And you know, even yesterday, just out, walking the dog, I work from home and – which I’m sure there’s a lot of people – that’s their story today and I walked beside my neighbor and as I see him in front of me, I said, “Okay, God, my path is supposed to cross with him right now” And we talked Warriors basketball and we talked about Halloween and we talked about just all the things that are happening in our neighborhood. But it’s just looking for those moments and just trusting God.
“God, you love him more than I love him. Use my words to be an encouragement to him. Lead this conversation to where You want it to go.” Yeah, just believing that the Holy Spirit is far more better at this than I am.
[0:16:27.8] JR: Yes. We need to be intentional about our conversation with the lost but at the same time, we also need to recognize that we cannot produce spiritual fruit, right? You mentioned Paul in I Corinthians three. He said, “I planted the seed and Paul’s watered it but God made it grow” and I just think, you know, I talk a little bit about this in my new book. Like, we want to microwave people into believing Jesus Christ, right?
We want to be able to plant the seed and have it be fully baked in 90 seconds. Like, this is not how this works, right? And I think there’s a risk in our intentionality as coming across to our coworkers. I don't know, I think we can send a message that they are a salvation project to us, rather than a human being that we want genuine relationship with. You know what I mean? Like, and you talk a little bit about this in translating Jesus.
You said, “Let’s not listen to convert but listen unconditionally, expecting not to say a thing. The genuine love of Jesus is best visible in us, His followers when we listen to people’s stories.” Encourage listeners to that end for a moment, Shauna, especially those who have grown up in church cultures that are so obsessed with this idea of microwaving people to believe in Jesus Christ.
[0:17:46.8] SP: Yeah, Jordan. The way I wrote the book down, it’s the gate, the cross, and the table, three places that Jesus spent time and so your whole point of like, we’re not microwaving it, it doesn’t have to happen today but I think if you – and again, this in no way is treating people like projects. It’s just this idea that God made us all, we are all creations of His, we’re doing life together. We’ve been reading your children’s book. I got teenagers but we’re reading your children’s book.
[0:18:13.4] JR: I wrote it as much for them as I did kids so I love that.
[0:18:15.2] SP: Oh my goodness, it’s so good, it’s so good but as we’ve even just been reading that around the table, it’s just this recognition that we all need each other. Like, God has put us all on this earth together, those who believe in Him right now and those who have yet to believe with Him.
So, I love just this picture of we’re all moving about this earth and some of us recognize that and some of us don’t but in this idea that the gate, the cross, and the table. Again, when you’re out at the gate, you’re in the marketplace, the cross is this idea of like being in Christian community, and this idea of the table is where we can – doing it together. Like, you know, I just even think about projects that were even a part of here in our city as we’re even moving into a new church space.
But we’re doing life with inspectors and architects and just people who we get to bring light of Jesus into even though they don’t recognize it yet but just this idea of where cocreating together. So, as I break down the gate, the cross, and the table, it’s – there are moments where I’m in the marketplace and I am doing life with people and I am – maybe it’s just simply for the values we have in our home or there’s a parenting moment that we discuss, or we’re talking about life here in the city.
But it’s these conversations at the gate that who knows how God’s going to use those. I love, Jordan, that as I look at those three different places is that I can have a friend that I’m doing life within the marketplace, in the corporate world, in our city but doing life in such a way of Jesus that there would be an opportunity that they would want to step into my church community, my faith community, and partake in what it would look like to do life in that space and I love.
I’ve got people that are coming to my mind that’s even I work out with at the gym that over time, she has now stepped into our church community and stepping into our church community, she sees more of a glimpse of Jesus, more of a glimpse of this kingdom of God and I think that’s just a beautiful journey that we get to be on with people. It’s taking years for her to step into that space. It started at the gate, it stated at the marketplace, and just over time, conversations and friendship has formed. She’s been able to meet other people in my faith community that she feels so comfortable in that church space and I love seeing her now.
She is now stepping into some small group opportunities and stuff but it’s not like that’s the end. That’s not the end, the end is just for her to know the love of Jesus is for her and whether that she experiences that in the marketplace, the cross, or the table is again, and it’s what you said, it’s just journeying with people. It’s doing life with them because Jesus loves me so much and he loves them so much and that’s what I want us to experience together.
[0:21:14.3] JR: Yeah, that’s really good. I’m going to say something that we might have to edit out later, I think there’s a risk our church cultures today is spending so much time on Bible study, on discipleship that on a vertical relationship with God, which is all-important, right? That we neglect the horizontal that Jesus called us to, to get out into the world to scatter into share out of an overflow of the love that we have experienced with the Father.
And our vertical relationship to allow it to spill over into the horizontal and going out in the world to seek and say the loss and simply to join Christ in the renewal of all things. Am I making any sense to you, Shauna?
[0:21:59.1] SP: Please don’t edit this out. Please don’t edit this out. No, I love this because – and it’s different for all of us. Like I mentioned my friend earlier like she’s at that place where she needs more just foundation of scripture in her life, like she needs that but I think every one of us needs to have a check in our spirit of if you were to look at your calendar this week, where are you spending your time?
And we all know, like and we have even talked about this at church on Sunday, we all know that we are at work and we were at school and we were in the marketplace far more, most of us would say, than we are at church but we need to recognize that. We need to celebrate that. There is a conversation that came out of Oxford recently and the person was writing like so many of us have gotten so down deep with the found that we’ve almost forgotten what it’s like to be lost.
We’ve forgotten what it’s like to be standing at that gate welcoming people in and I do, I admire the people who are down deep with the found, where discipleship is being formed in people but again, I just think if we look at the scriptures and you look at how Jesus spent time, He spent so much of His time with the lost and at the gate bringing people in that I almost think to your point, we’ve almost put so much of emphasis on discipleship that we’ve forgotten all about evangelism.
And I think those two work so hand in hand with each other that I’m actually being discipled as I’m learning to figure out how to share my faith, how to translate Jesus with people who don’t know Him yet and have never heard of Him. That’s still a huge part of discipleship so much, I would even say, Jordan, and you might push back a little bit on this but growing up in the Deep South, I don’t know if I had the tools and the encouragement within the church to go and live for Jesus outside of the church, I don’t know if that was celebrated enough.
[0:23:57.7] JR: Oh, I wouldn’t push back on that. I would shout a hard amen to that. I think that’s a hundred percent right.
[0:24:01.9] SP: Okay. Okay, so in the book, I even break it down at the gate the cross and the table of listen to stories at the gate, step into stories at the cross, and swap stories at the table. We need to be telling each other stories of where you saw God at work this week. We’re not hearing enough of that and so I even – recently I was speaking to a crowd of pastors and I just, “Make sure your message comes with a story that people were more drawn to the stories we tell than the weekly messages we preach.”
And I think just highlighting those stories that we’re engaged with during the week would really challenge people’s faith and I think it just keeps everything fresh.
[0:24:43.5] JR: Yeah. Hey, I want to dig deeper into something else from your book that I just really, really appreciated. You spent a lot of time talking about the need for Christians to engage with secular culture and I want to read a long quote from you, so I apologize. I hate it when people quote me to me but I’m going to do it to you because our listeners –
[0:25:03.9] SP: I need you to quote me and me because I’ve forgotten what I had said.
[0:25:06.0] JR: Oh, trust me I know. I know that feeling. This is so good, listen to this listeners, she says, “Unless we listen attentively to the voices of secular society, struggle to understand them, and feel with people in their frustration, anger, bewilderment, and despair, weeping with those who weep, we will lack authenticity as the disciples of Jesus instead, we run the risk of answering questions that no one is asking, scratching where nobody is itching, supplying good for which there is no demand.”
And freaking mic drop Shauna, I love that so much. All right, so how do we do this well? What does it look like practically for the mere Christians listening to become culturally literate as a means of being more relevant and understanding the deep spiritual needs of those that we work with?
[0:25:57.5] SP: Yeah. Well, Jordan, I’m just going to put a little plug here for a split second and I work for Alpha and Alpha is a series of questions used in churches and third spaces and prisons and youth spaces, where you invite the curious and the skeptics and the doubters. We’re all asking these questions, what’s the purpose of life and who is Jesus and how do I resist evil and why should I pray and what’s the point of the Bible?
So we’re already asking these questions but it brings you into spaces where you get to ask those questions with other people and as believers, we get to sit in those spaces with people who question and doubt and we get to practice listening and so I do believe listening is a lost art especially among the church because we feel like we’ve got to know all the answers when yet – and that is true, we do need to know what we believe and why we believe it.
But I think so often, we take that into a conversation and we don’t care to listen to what they believe and why they believe what they believe and so often it’s in the listening that we began to understand. We become empathetic and merciful to their story and to their childhood and to their past and to their pain points that generally listening to someone really opens up a door and not just opens up a door like, “Okay, now is the moment we get to share our faith.”
But it opens up a door to the idea that they essentially are looking for Jesus. He is the answer that they’re looking for and we have that answer and we get to present it in such a way that is truly compassionate and is truly caring and it just gives them an opportunity to be open to what that would look like for their lives and so really truly it is practicing listening and I think listening and I also think eye contact and that’s something else I talk about in the book.
But those are lost practices even in the secular world, though I feel like I’m coming at people of faith, which is what we share as well but I do believe it’s even in the corporate world, the secular world where for someone to look you in the eye and for someone to really lean into what you have to say is just a breath of fresh air and I think now is the time for the people of God wherever God has placed us with our work to catch people off guard with those two very things.
[0:28:24.5] JR: That’s good. By the way, Alpha is my absolute favorite tool for translating Jesus in the language that today’s nonbeliever can understand. We actually just had Nicky Gumbel, Alpha’s leader on the podcast. Why did you join the team? Because this is recent for you.
[0:28:39.1] SP: It is recent for me. I mean, of just even probably in the past five or six years we have been doing in our church but I remember sitting in Royal Albert Hall and we were in London for the leadership conference that Nicky and Peppa put on with Global Alpha and it was sitting in there and I just looked at Ben, my husband, and I was like, “Okay, I just need your blessing to come back and run this at our church.”
Because Jordan, as you know with my first book, Love Where You Live, it’s this whole idea of like that’s how I’ve been living in San Francisco, this mission of lifestyle, this neighboring, everyone is important to Jesus, how do I introduce Him to other people? To me, it was this bridge between so many of my neighbors and my non-Christian friends, and the people that I rub shoulders with in my city to a place I love and I cherish so much, which is the church of Jesus Christ, and so Alpha is that.
It is that evangelism tool for me but it is much more than just an evangelism tool. It’s, “Hey, I can create a space in my home.” I can create a space in a coffee shop, we can create a space at a brewery, we can create a space at a high school, and we can not necessarily bring people to church but we can bring people to that third space where they’re comfortable being.
[0:29:51.5] JR: Yeah, we can bring the church to them and this is why I’m so passionate about Alpha and the work that mere Christians are doing in the world. You know, as North America increasingly post-Christian, my hypothesis is that churches will preach more to the saints and less seeker-friendly sermons because cultural Christians just aren’t going to be coming to church on Sunday morning.
There is going to be less and less culture of Christians and so I think it’s going to be harder and harder to bring a lost person to church before they’ve given their life to Christ, which is why we have to bring the church to them. We have to go out into the marketplace, into a bar with an Alpha course, whatever it is, and meet people where they’re at. Would you agree with that Shauna?
[0:30:33.1] SP: A hundred percent and I think for listeners, I think it could come in one of two ways, I think it’s that, “Hey, you’ve got friends who are deconstructing faith, who are turned off by one church or another, they still love what Jesus offers. They still love this idea of believing in something bigger than themselves and I think Alpha allows you to create that space where it builds that foundation of faith.
And I also think it’s that thing that you can be doing, I’ve got a friend that’s running this up in Sacramento, where she’s got so many non-Christian friends who are not quite ready or intimidated to step into and she goes to a very large church. They’re intimidated to step into that. So, she simply just doing dinner parties at her house using Alpha and being able to share her story but we’re seeing this.
I mean, this is happening at Parliament, it’s happening in Google, it’s happening at Facebook, it’s happening in corporate settings all over the world and I just love that there is a tool that is non-threatening that’s very winsome that anybody can run.
[0:31:33.1] JR: So, my book that drops in January is all about hard work matters for eternity, and 80% of the book is focused on how our work matters beyond the great commission but man, the other 20% is, “Yeah, listen, our work does matter because it is the primary means by which we will carry out the great commission in this post-Christian context.” And so we ought to get really, really good at this.
And I’ve just never seen a better tool than Alpha to help to that end. I promise I’m not being paid by any affiliate fees for this. Like this is just one Alpha super fan trying to give you guys great tools to translate Jesus to those that you work with. I mean, I don’t know of a better tool. Do you, Shauna, than Alpha for this?
[0:32:13.8] SP: You know, I’ll even quote Nicky and Pippa say this often, they are the pioneers of Alpha and they say, “Hey if another tool comes along, we’ll drop Alpha and pick that one up.”
[0:32:21.6] JR: There you go, I love that so much.
[0:32:23.3] SP: I love that humility, we see at work, we’re seeing – I mean, we’re baptizing people at church. It’s reproducing leaders. It’s giving people who maybe thought they had a faith or not quite sure about their faith. They now feel confident in their faith and then it also – it’s just a fresh way of equipping people who want to be able to share their faith where they work. I really do think it grows people’s confidence in what they believe and why they believe it.
[0:32:52.1] JR: That’s exactly right, I love it. Shauna, three questions we wrap up every episode with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? And it can be on any topic, it could be a San Francisco City Guide, it could be a work of theology, whatever but if we opened up your Amazon order history, what do we see you ordering over and over and over again in terms of books?
[0:33:14.7] SP: Oh my goodness, well, I’m curious, I almost flipped the question on you here Jordan, because so much of it is like I love to go to great books and look at the back and see who are they learning from because that’s often who they quote. So if you were to go to the back of translating Jesus, you would find that I love John Scott, Basic Christianity. I love Alister McGrath’s, Mere Discipleship, which she is actually on a lot of the Alpha film series.
I love Madeleine L'Engle but not so much a wrinkle in time, she’s done a lot of writing on writing but I love her work. One book that I probably have recommended the most in my life is a book called, He Restores My Soul, by Jennifer Kennedy Dean. She helped me create that sacred space in the morning of, “Hey, I’m going to meet with my Creator, and then I’m going to go out into this world.”
And so she helps me establish that in the morning that really helped me be free just to live my day with obedience and freedom and finding where God’s at work and joining Him in it. So, that’s a book I’ll probably recommend a lot. I am a big fan of the liturgical, so I love reading things leading up to Advent, Lent. I am right now kind of geeking out on old books, I love George McDonald’s works and so –
[0:34:32.3] JR: Oh man, you are British at heart, come on.
[0:34:34.7] SP: I really am, I really am.
[0:34:37.3] JR: George McDonald, I love this.
[0:34:38.9] SP: I am. Yeah, I feel like I’m going back to my roots. When we travel, I love to and a friend gave me this idea, I love to download Audible books for places I am going to visit. So we’ve got upcoming trips to Spain and to Iceland, so love getting books on the places I’m going to visit. Do you tend to do that with your writings, with your biographies or bibliographies?
[0:35:02.0] JR: Oh, for sure. If you want to know who’s influencing me, just look at the end notes. Yeah, you’ll spot it pretty quickly, that’s a really good tip. Hey, Shauna, who would you most like to hear on the show talking about how the Gospel influences the work that mere Christians do in the world? And maybe it’s somebody you know in your local body who is working at a big tech company, right? Is there anyone who comes to mind?
[0:35:24.8] SP: Well, you’ve already had Nicky Gumbel, so he would be the top of my list. This is more of like a group of people, I would love to hear like some Gen Z social influencers of those that are really figuring out like, “Hey, I’m not sure what I am doing with my life but I love this space and I feel like I’m good at this and I’m using it.” The young adults that would say, “But I see Jesus in all of this. I see that He’s put this gift in me.”
I don’t know, I would love to hear that and then Jordan, I mean, our city is full of people in that faith and workspace that oh my goodness, I probably could do a lot of name-dropping right now with or without their permission but there are just people who are you know, the top five, the big five tech companies out here, I’m thinking of people new to their faith that I mentioned earlier employed by Apple.
I’m thinking of those that are building things with the Department of Defense that they are going to help in future things in our world. So I’d love to shoot you some names maybe off camera.
[0:36:30.2] JR: Please do, I love that.
[0:36:31.9] SP: But no, it’s really neat to see and Jordan, I know you’re probably in these conversations a lot where you’re with people who they have just an incredible deep faith in God. It’s not always something that’s vocalized or has a platform for in their workplace but if you get them one-on-one in conversations, you’re just amazed at what they’re building and how they’re shaping the world that we live in all in the name of Jesus Christ. So, we get to rub shoulders a lot with people here in the Bay Area.
[0:37:00.9] JR: Those are some of my favorite people. We’ve had a lot of great Silicon Valley talent on the show. I’m thinking of Deb Liu, the CEO of Ancestry.com, who is phenomenal. We’ve had some people at Meta and Apple but always welcoming those friends because I think man, it is such an interesting time to be working in those companies not just for the sake of evangelism but for also embracing the first commission, just to make this world more useful for other human beings to benefit the enjoyments so doing this earth for God’s glory and the good of others.
Hey Shauna, before we sign off, you’re talking to this global audience of mere Christians, very diverse vocationally, what’s one thing you want to leave them with as an encouragement before we hang up?
[0:37:39.2] SP: I think encouragement, Jordan, and to all the listeners is you know, even just in this moment, I’m just taking a step back and I’m thinking how many people are on planet earth today that love Jesus, and want to make Him known and to think that we are a part, this heavenly kingdom that is here on earth today and we get to do this together where there are so many of us that are engaged with the gifts that God has given us and we get to do it in the name of Jesus.
And I think with that 30,000-foot view, just to think of how many people today like where they to know the hope that we have in Jesus it would change their life and I think when you just – when those two worlds collide that’s where I just feel like sparks fly and it’s just a beautiful day. Today is a beautiful day to do kingdom work wherever we call home and I love that we’re all in this together.
[0:38:38.5] JR: Shauna, I want to commend you for the terrific work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for living out Jesus, called to be light in the world and for giving us just practical ways that we could translate Jesus to our non-Christian coworkers and encouraging the mere Christians listening to lean into their work to that, and friends if you want to go deeper into this topic, check out Shauna’s great book, Translating Jesus. Shauna, thanks for hanging out with us today.
[0:39:04.6] SP: So fun.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:39:06.0] JR: Hey, I want to know who you want to hear on the Mere Christians Podcast. Contact us at jordanraynor.com with your recommendations even if it’s yourself. We’d love giving those pitches genuinely. Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning in to the Mere Christians Podcast this week, I’ll see you next time.
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