3 ways to “scratch-off” the Kingdom of God
Jordan Raynor sits down with Shaun Castillo, President of Preferred Technologies, to talk about how to spot the deeply personal needs of those you work with, the injustice blue-collar workers experience and how to help fix it, and 3 ways to “scratch-off” the Kingdom of God.
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[00:00:04] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of Mere Christians, those of us who aren't pastors, but who work as jewelers, cable installers and pharmacists. That's the question we explore every week.
Today, I'm posing it to my good friend Shaun Castillo. He's one of my favorite people on Earth. He's a crazy talented leader, played division one college football at the United States Military Academy at West Point. Served as an officer in the United States Army, including a state of combat in Iraq, but for the last 13 years, Shaun has served as the president of preferred Technologies, a large security installer based in Houston, Texas.
Shaun and I finally got a chance to record one of our many conversations publicly. We talked about how we can spot the deeply personal needs of the people that we work with. We talked about the injustice that blue collar workers experience in our culture today and what you and I could do about it. We also shared these three ways that you and I can “scratch off” the Kingdom. I'm not talking about gambling scratch offs. Please don't send me your angry emails. But how can we, through our work, reveal what's on the other side of the thin veil that separates earth and heaven? I promise you guys are going to love this episode with my friend Shaun Castillo.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:45] JR: Shaun Castillo, welcome to the podcast, brother.
[00:01:48] SC: Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
[00:01:49] JR: Longtime listener, first time caller. I was thinking before we got on, I think the first time we ever talked live, we've been friends for a couple years was my favorite Zoom meeting of all time with you and your son, Kyle. How old was he? This is a couple of years ago.
[00:02:07] SC: He would have been eight at the time.
[00:02:09] JR: Kyle wants to be a writer. I don't know if he still wants to be a writer, but he did when he was eight. So we get hop on zoom, you, me, and Kyle. Kyle asks like the most thoughtful questions, clearly coached by his father, about the craft of writing. It was awesome. How's Kyle doing these days? Is he writing anything? He's got to get to it.
[00:02:30] SC: He writes here and there. He's a pretty creative kid. He is enjoying being the center of joy in his classroom at school right now. He's channeling that well. He loves to create. He's always drawing something, writing something. I think what's beautiful about Kyle's heart is it's always for another. It's always to lift up another. He certainly gets that from his mom more than I, but he's a joy to be around and a joy to father. That's for sure.
[00:03:00] JR: I love it. Well, I can't wait to read his first graphic novel. Hey, Shaun, let's give some context to our listeners.
[00:03:06] SC: Sure.
[00:03:07] JR: What is Preferred Technologies? What do you guys do?
[00:03:10] SC: What we do physically is, we design, build, and service security systems, not cybersecurity systems, but physical security systems. If you go into a bank, or a classroom, or an airport, and you see the cameras hanging on the wall, you see the card readers to enter a door. That's what we do. We design, build, and install those systems.
[00:03:31] JR: Got it. Give us an idea of the scale of the business. How many people are on the team? Where are you guys based, all that good stuff?
[00:03:37] SC: Sure. We have 119 employees today. Our main office that we started in 2005 is in Houston, Texas. We opened in Austin office in 2016. That is like the rest of the Austin market thriving right now.
[00:03:53] JR: Yeah. Yeah. You guys can hire fast enough.
[00:03:55] SC: Cannot.
[00:03:56] JR: All right, so your dad founded this business?
[00:03:59] SC: Actually –
[00:04:00] JR: No? Is that not true?
[00:04:01] SC: It was actually a family founding.
[00:04:04] JR: Oh, interesting.
[00:04:05] SC: My mother, father, and myself. I left the army called home to tell my parents I was going to school and they said, “Well, why don't you table that for a little while and come join us and we're going to start a security business.”
[00:04:18] JR: I thought, I knew you so well. Not so much. You were in the army for how long?
[00:04:23] SC: Five and a half years after my time at the military academy.
[00:04:27] JR: Okay. You spent a year in combat in Iraq. What led you to make the leap from the military to business?
[00:04:33] SC: The call with my father, and actually it was a really good mentor. Always have good mentors around you. That's for sure. I was in the army, decided to get out of the army. My wife and I were ready to start a family. I knew if I stayed in the army, I was going to stay in operations and I would be gone every other year and the examples around me not fared well in their family situations. I didn't want to fall into that. So, decided to get out, I called my parents and told them I was going to go back to school. My dream has always been to manage ranches in South Texas. So, I was going to Texas in Kingsville to have a great fellowship in wildlife management.
[00:05:13] JR: Yeah. You would have been a great rancher. Man.
[00:05:16] SC: My commander at the time said, “Shaun, you’ve been in the army for 23 years. My preference is you stay in the army, but I will tell you of all my friends that spent their careers in the army, and have gotten out recently, majority of them went to Fortune 500 companies, they hated it. Here, you have an opportunity to take a business over to work with your family, and then take the business over in the future, and not many people get that opportunity.”
[00:05:40] JR: Yeah.
[00:05:41] SC: He said, “I recommend you go and try that out. If it doesn't work, the schools, they'll be there.” Luckily, I heeded his advice. I'm here today, because of it.
[00:05:49] JR: It's a really good question to ask when discerning vocational paths like, what's the worst case scenario in both directions? Usually, when you play that out, it becomes pretty clear. I talked about this in Master of One, there are very few irreversible decisions, right?
[00:06:05] SC: Right.
[00:06:05] JR: God can use even the pain of the worst circumstances for good. I was telling somebody the other day, Shaun, a mutual friend of ours, you’re one of the godliest in spirit filled people I know.
[00:06:18] SC: Wow.
[00:06:18] JR: I know that always hasn't been the case for you. I know your faith got serious later in life.
[00:06:24] SC: Sure.
[00:06:24] JR: I think there's a lot of people listening who probably have a similar story. So, I’m just curious like what encouragement you would have for those listening, who may not be particularly proud of their past and question whether or not God can really use them in the future? Can you talk to that person for a minute?
[00:06:43] SC: Oh, for sure. If you're out there, and you're listening, let my life be an example. I was not a Christ follower for my first 38 years. I would have told you if you asked me if I believed in God, I would have said yes, just because it was the right thing to do. It was the good American, all American type kid. I would have told you that I do believe in God, but certainly didn't have a relationship, certainly didn't know the Bible, certainly didn't know the gospel in my heart.
I radically met Jesus in 2016, again, radically changed my life, changed everything about my life. What's been really interesting, and to me shows the sovereignty of God, shows how much He loves me, is that those first 38 years, He was working diligently, though I rebelled against Him at times, though I couldn't see Him at all.
He worked through all of that, to give me experience, to give me insights, to give me knowledge that I would argue enhances my ability to see Him now and to appreciate Him now. So, whatever God has done with you, good or bad, like you said, even the pain that, one day, you will be able to look back and see how He was using that for good, for good in your heart, and for the good of those around you.
[00:08:07] JR: Yeah. So frequently in Scripture, it is those people with really rough pasts that God uses the most. He uses the murderer named Moses, right? Prostitute named Rahab. He used, I mean, Peter was a traitor, right? When He does use these people, I think the whole point is He gets such greater glory. He's the hero of that story.
[00:08:33] SC: Just beautiful. One that comes to mind as we speak is John 8:1-11. With the woman caught in adultery and just the heart of Jesus, the accusers place her right in the middle, right in the middle. Jesus does this weird thing where He kneels down and draws in the sand and you look at His heart for her, He took the attention off of her. He took the attention off of her plight, addressed obviously, the accusers they left one-by-one, because they condemned themselves by Jesus's words. When they were gone and she's left right there in the middle at, I would probably bet, the low point of her life.
He gently asked, “Where they are now? Where are your accusers now? Has anyone condemned you?” He says, “Nor do I.” Just how God will meet you in that deep, dark place when you're at your worst. That's where He met me, when I was at my worst. He will remove the condemnation that this world wants to put on us, is just such a beautiful story. I would say to those listening, if you feel condemnation, there is a beautiful place where Jesus will meet you, and He will deal with that condemnation in a beautiful way.
[00:09:53] JR: “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” Paul says in Romans 8:1. Yeah. I love the story of the woman and John 8, because Jesus did speak truth to her, right? He didn't gloss over the sin, but first, his initial impulse, Dane Ortlund talks about this beautifully in his book, Gentle and Lowly, was to show compassion, was to bear her shame, take her shame upon himself, step in the middle of that situation, and then deal gently and lovingly with others.
I don't think we've ever talked about this, but you came to faith in Christ in 2016, you had already been working in the business for, if my math is right, seven years. How did your salvation change your relationship to the work of building this business?
[00:10:48] SC: Well, I all, but destroyed the business, because I was rooted in self. He showed me what the true nature of myself and showed me a different way. So, in 2016, I started walking the path of redemption with Christ. He has redeemed everything to include the business. We look much – though we still install cameras. We still install card readers. Serve as our customers physically the same way. The nature of our business is fundamentally different. I tell people, we're a relationship business that happens to install cameras and card readers, and we really focus on developing relationship. I think so much of that has been lost.
My ideal picture of relationship is Genesis 2:25. God has created man and woman and they stand before each other naked and feel no shame. How far are we from that in our society today, where we can just be who God created us to be and not feel the condemnation, not feel the shame? We have so many posers, trying to be what we think this world needs to be. We try to get as close to that ideal relationship as we can with one another in the company, with our employees, with our vendors, and with our customers. Our belief is that, if our customers can see that heart for them, see that love for them, that the business will succeed.
[00:12:16] JR: What does that look like? Maybe talk through an example of an instance where it would have been very easy for an employee or a customer or a vendor to experience shame, but because of the way you guys have built the culture of this business, they did not feel that shame in that condemnation. Does that make sense? Is there an example that comes to mind there, Shaun?
[00:12:39] SC: Yeah. We concentrate, and we really focus on doing large complex projects. We like the enterprise commercial space of business. With anything complex, there going to be issues, especially new construction, or we're trying to design and build a building from our heads into this this creation.
[00:13:00] JR: Yeah.
[00:13:01] SC: People are going to make mistakes, and traditionally in the construction industry, very legalistic, very contractually focused. We signed up for this, to these specifications. You're now asking for this. We're not doing it.
[00:13:16] JR: It's a no grace. Yeah.
[00:13:17] SC: Order, for example. I think in those times, especially when a customer makes mistakes, or makes a mistake. How do we deal with that? Do we push back and charge the heck out of them and increase our profit margin? Or do we work with them? Do we find efficiencies in the project where we can cover that mistake at no cost to the customer? Things like that. I think that's a way we can model that love for one another, rather than attacking the customer, and trying to gain an advantage for ourselves. It's like, “Hey, we're all in it for the same goal. We want to build a beautiful building that's secure and safe. We made a mistake. Let's work through it. Let's make something great despite.”
[00:14:00] JR: Yeah. But it's not like, “Oh, the customer’s made a mistake. It's a now we can exploit that weakness.”
[00:14:07] SC: Exactly. Traditionally, I mean, that's why contractors have a bad name, right? Because most exploit that.
[00:14:13] JR: Right.
[00:14:14] SC: Anybody who has done a house remodel knows what I'm talking about.
[00:14:17] JR: Yeah, for sure. Thinking of a couple of those conversations. Your LinkedIn headline really gets at the heart of what you're talking about. It says, “As the President of Preferred Technologies, I work to advance human flourishing,” right? Shame is a piece of that, removing that shame, but it's all about contributing to human flourishing. Is that what you believe God wants our focus to be in our work, cultivating the flourishing of other image bearers?
[00:14:47] SC: I think first He wants a relationship, even in our vocation.
[00:14:50] JR: Yeah. Amen.
[00:14:52] SC: Yeah. Talk about, there’s a great book by Skye Jethani, where he talks about being With, and being the correct posture of God. I think that's first and foremost, but in that witness, if you will, as we're with God, He will show us how to make the Kingdom visible. The way I like to think of it is God created a very ordered world and asked us to join Him and stewarding it with the introduction of sin. We now have disorder. If we in our vocation can, in a little way, work with God to restore some of that order, then we make the Kingdom visible. That Kingdom that is near that we can't see if we help through our vocation and reordering that, then we make it visible to those around us.
[00:15:36] JR: Yeah. Security systems do this, right?
[00:15:39] SC: They can. All right, so I get up every day. This may sound a little weird to some, but I think God has called me to be a castle builder to build castles. So I get up every day knowing what I'm going to do and I build castles. When you think of a castle, a Kingdom Castle, if you will, I'm going to steal from you a little bit, through some of your teachings. You talk to us about what the consummated Kingdom of God looks like. Some of those points or you know, perfect relationship with God, justice, beauty, order, cultural excellence, physical health, joy, peace, safety, abundance, and shelter. Those type of things. That's one thing we can instill.
We live in a world ruled by sin. The devil is president. We've got a world that's fighting against us, our own flesh is fighting against us. So if we, through the work we do, can create some safety, some security in the places we get to work, so that people can perform better work. Then, I think we've brought the Kingdom near. We’ve brought the Kingdom to light.
[00:16:41] JR: Yeah. I think that's exactly right. There's so many platitudes, so much terminology around the Kingdom. You hear people saying Christians are called to grow the Kingdom or advance the Kingdom, or the analogy – I've shared this with you before.
The analogy that's really sticky in my mind these days, is that of a “scratch off,” not a gambling scratch off, I don't want to get your angry emails, right? But you know what I'm talking about, right? The scratch off that kids have. They're totally black on the front. You scratch them off with a little stylus or a quarter and on the backside of it, there's something beautiful. I think that's a pretty good picture of this world. The Kingdom of God is what's beautiful on the other side of this sin-ladened world. We, through our vocations, have the opportunity to scratch off the Kingdom, if you will, and give people glimpses of the marks of that consummated Kingdom, which, as you mentioned, right, order, beauty, justice, cultural excellence, joy, etc. etc. etc.
I think, there's a few postures we could take to that. I think we can weed out what doesn't belong in the Kingdom of God through our work. I think that is one way that we scratch off the Kingdom. I think we can plant things that do belong in the Kingdom of God. I think the third is a posture that I know you really resonate with. We've talked about this before. I think we can reveal the Kingdom simply when we serve as faithful representatives. Faithful ambassadors of our King, right? Shaun what does that look like for you? As you think about being an ambassador of the King, what does that look day-to-day as you lead this business?
[00:18:29] SC: To me, it's really being present with Him. I love Brother Lawrence's old book, The Practice of the Presence of God, just really being in tune with God in the day-to-day and being so in tune that the little decisions, the little acts that I'm working with God in those moments, and making choices.
I love how, in the Bible, we in our western world, I think we shy away from all dimensions of obedience in the Bible. Independent Americans, we don't like to be obedient to anyone. I've learned to see that as a beautiful form of love. Like God says, “This is the way that made things. I didn't make them in this other way. I'm asking you to obey. I'm asking you to choose my way.” I just love that. I see that as, again a great act of love. If I'm in tune with God, if I'm listening to Him and He reveals to me something that he would like me to do, and I obey that, I think that's where I'm being most faithful to God. I think that's where I commune with Him. That's what it looks like to me to be a great ambassador.
[00:19:45] JR: Yeah. I love that you brought up Genesis 2, a couple of minutes ago, because when I think about Pref-Tech, Preferred Technologies, I think one of the ways that you guys cultivate human flourishing is treating the work of your blue collar workers with great dignity, right? I think this ultimately stems in an understanding of Genesis two, right? That God worked with his hands to sculpt human beings and plant gardens. Jesus worked as a carpenter, right? Have you have you dwelled on this? Does that reality that we worship of God who works with his words, and his hands shaped the culture that you built at Pref-Tech in elevating blue collar work to almost an art form?
[00:20:29] SC: Undoubtedly. Wow. The folks first were filled with the Holy Spirit in the Bible were the craftsmen. I think a great injustice of our time in America has been the degradation of the tradesmen. Our young kids, we want them to aspire to be financiers and lawyers and doctors. I think we've looked at the tradesmen incorrectly. I mean, the tradesmen, little life of service, whether I'm putting electricity in a building or assembling an electric vehicle, whatever I'm doing as a tradesman, I'm contributing to the greater good. There's such honor and beauty in that. It is filled with craftsmanship. We're talking about doing home renovations, but if you look at a home renovation. If you look at someone doing drywall work, there is an art to that.
[00:21:24] JR: Yes.
[00:21:25] SC: When you watch someone who makes it, I've done a lot of it myself. It's not pretty, and it takes a lot and I get frustrated. Then I go see someone who does that for a living work. Again, it's an art form. It's beautiful. The way they can just make it look easy. Just again, I think it's an injustice, the view we've given to our tradesmen and we make it a point to highlight that. We make it a point to show the beauty and the craftsmanship. Craftsmanship is part of our purpose they've been at the company. Really I've tried in the last couple years after reading, Good Work by Dave Hataj.
[00:22:02] JR: I love Dave, so much.
[00:22:03] SC: Exactly. I mean, just to really, let's transform the view of the tradesman. Let's get back to the beauty that lies in there. The service that lies in the trades. Let's create systems in our society that promote the trades, that elevate the trades, and that we give to our society, people, craftsmen, that can be the foundation of who we are as Americans.
[00:22:29] JR: This is a big idea. I want to go deeper on this. You and I share a love of our mutual friend Dave Hataj. By the way, if you haven't listened to Dave Hataj episode of The Mere Christians podcast, go way back in the archives and find it. It's so, so good.
You mentioned the word injustice twice. That's a strong word. I think it's right. This is a form of injustice that we have instilled this culture of viewing the trades as the second class work, right? You're right. We're pushing our kids with this. I'm curious you talked about how you're trying to change this within the four walls of Preferred Technologies. What does that look like? How practically are you guys trying to help your team see their manual labor as art and craftsmanship?
[00:23:19] SC: Well, first and foremost, we recognize it, talk about it. Again, it's in our purpose statement. We talk about our purpose statement too often. We iterate, reiterate, we use it as our decision platform. If you come to a decision and it supports our purpose statement, you'll never be wrong. First and foremost, we talk about it. We train it. We teach it. We call it out. Then we really want to build programs that reteach our folks the beauty of it. I think a big barrier to mastering a trade or mastering a skill is that it takes work, years of work, years of hard work, years of failure and restarts.
In our society today we celebrate the 27-year-old NFL head coach. Now that's what gets the media not the guy who's toiled for 20 years to perfect this craft. We try to slow down our team. It's hard these days, especially the young, eager, ambitious folks, but let's slow down. Let's invest in becoming masters in our craft and it's going to take time. No, you're not going to be CEO of the company in two years, but there is great appreciation for what you can contribute throughout the journey. Here's the role you play. Here's the value. Here's the beauty in it. Here's some partners to go along with you, your mentors, your fellow mentees and let's all go towards this end of beautiful craftsmanship together.
[00:24:55] JR: Yeah. I love that you guys articulate it on the website as the highest level of craftsmanship and service, right? You're talking about a commitment to excellence. Talk for a minute about why this is so important to you as a Christ follower? Why do you think Christians should have the highest standards of excellence in their work?
[00:25:15] JR: I love the word winsome.
[00:25:17] SC: Let's bring winsome back. This is such a great word.
[00:25:20] SC: I hope that my faith is evident. I hope that people see the excellence. I don't always achieve it obviously, but that we work towards. Yes, that excellence is our standard. I hope someone marries can easily marry the two that maybe Shaun's desire for excellence is rooted in his faith. I hope that's winsome, I hope that excellence that with which we work, the excellent products we produce, solutions we produce, the excellent way we treat our customers. I hope is winsome, and it draws people in and they want to know the foundation of it. Then we can happily discuss our Jesus.
[00:26:02] JR: Yeah. I think, because listen, non-Christians have high standards of excellence, too. I think the shade of nuance that is really important to color in here is like, how we pursue excellence works. So yes, it's a commitment to excellence, but we're not going to shame you if you don't attain excellence in everything. We're also going to go on this path to excellence in a different way, right? How do you think you guys do this differently, because there's a Christ follower in the President's chair of this business? How does the path to mastery this path to excellence look different than it might in another company, Shaun?
[00:26:42] SC: I think it's the heart of it. Just like Jesus talks about seeing the heart, much more than the external actions. I think the external actions play a part. I hope that in our pursuit of excellence, in our desire for excellence, hopefully in the excellent products that we provide our customers that they not only see the excellent product, but the heart behind it. Again, I think it's in the struggles that they see that.
[00:27:10] JR: Yes.
[00:27:11] SC: In those challenges in projects. The challenges with employees at times. The failures we have. I think that exposes our character, right? Adversity reveals character. So I hope that in the adversity that happens with every project, happens with every service goal and that adversity, we're able to produce excellence that customers can see the heart of that excellence is not our own profitable game. Again, it's for their benefit and for the coming greater good.
[00:27:43] JR: Yeah. Based on your growth rate, I have no doubt that customers would describe your products and services as excellent, maybe even exceptional. I got to say, I've gotten to know you pretty well, over the last couple of years. What I've had insight to is the excellent way you treat your people. In the past year alone, you've asked me to pray for one of your employees who lost his home in a tornado, another employee who was served divorce papers, another employee who is dying of cancer and the list goes on and on.
You're the president of the company. It’s not a small company. You got a 120 people. It’s very easy for you to just not know of these needs, not see these needs, but you do. That's really interesting to me. I'm curious what you do to make sure that you personally are seeing the needs in the life of your team members.
[00:28:40] SC: One, I surround myself with folks who do it better, way better than I do. We have just an amazing group of people at this company who truly care about others. We call ourselves a family. We are a family. We care about the family. So I would attribute most of that to them, bringing issues to my attention, knowing that I'm going to pray for somebody that fast. Then coming to me, “Hey, this person doesn't want anybody to know, but I know you're a prayer warrior. I know you'll pray for this person. That's all we can give them at the moment. So please just go pray.” I will not hesitate to ask folks like you and folks in my community to join me, but it's just listening. At the end of the day, how I treat people is much more important than the bottom line that I'm able to display to a bank or somebody analyzing our company.
At the end of the day, when I'm on my deathbed, those are the some of the things that are going to warm my heart, to know that I've contributed to allowing people to flourish. I think prayer is a big part of flourishing, because we can't flourish without our God and interceding on other's behalf is important. I walking throughout the day communing with God again practicing the presence part of that is not walking by an image bearer and passing them by, but asking God to show me what that person needs to hear or see and then being obedient, if I hear something.
[00:30:11] JR: Yeah. Like a real practical level, though, that requires the discipline of eliminating hurry, to quote Willard, from your calendar, right? Because if you're constantly rushing from one meeting to the next, you don't have the time to look those other image bearers in the eye and ask how things are going, and really like measure their response and whether or not you need to go deeper, right?
[00:30:35] SC: Right. Well, we celebrate hurriedness, we celebrate the grind, we celebrate busyness in our society and measure people by it quite often, especially in business. The lady that's at the office 24/7 being productive is the one who usually gets elevated. I think it comes at great cost and great expense, and that great cost and that great expense being missing the heart of people.
[00:31:02] JR: Yeah.
[00:31:03] SC: Missing that person that needs a quick conversation. Missing that person who needs prayer, as you mentioned, so I sincerely appreciate the work you've done with time and publishing the book, Redeeming Your Time. I've implemented that that's given me back a lot of margin in my day. It's allowed me to focus and be productive on business things when I need to be productive on business things, but create space within my day to be purposeful and be present with those who need me to be.
[00:31:36] JR: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the word margin, right? Because I think that is the key here. If we want to see the needs of the people we work with, I just think it's impossible to do unless there's plenty of margin on our calendars, would you agree?
[00:31:50] SC: Absolutely, agree. Absolutely, I agree. I love the concept of the shallows and serendipity. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the book, Redeeming Your Time. I know mentally in my mind, at the end of my day, I have space.
[00:32:05] JR: Yes.
[00:32:06] SC: For the shallow work, the credit card expense report, for example that I have. I have space, but I know I have that space in the back of my mind. So, if I'm focused on something in my morning and someone comes into my office, and as a need, I know that I have margin at the end of my day to fill the gap. I can be present with that person. I don't have to turn them away, and stay focused, because I'm so hurried and I can't get everything done. I wholeheartedly believe that having that margin in your day is imperative to being present for those around you.
[00:32:45] JR: Yeah. Hey, I got to ask you this. I promise it's not, because I'm trying to sell my own book, but to give our listeners a tool to serve as a bridge to sharing the gospel with their co-workers, because you surprised me. You shot me an email a few months back. You're like, “Hey, I want to teach Redeeming Your Time to a group of non-Christians.” You did it. What was that experience like? Were they receptive to these time management principles from the life of Christ?
[00:33:14] SC: Well, everybody has issues with time in today's professional environment, and I spoke is actually twice, I taught it a couple security industry conventions. It's been so powerful to my life that I just had this, I wouldn't even call it a need. It was this call to share it, and help others hopefully redeem some of the time and focus themselves on what matters. Obviously, they were not Christian events. I had to shape it.
[00:33:46] JR: Yeah, of course.
[00:33:47] SC: But it was beautiful. I love your response, because I asked you. I said, “Hey, I'm going to present this to more than likely to some non-believers, and what would you say to them about your book?” I loved your response. You said, “Well, I think anyone can look at Jesus and say, hey, this guy worked for three years and it's changed the world for the next 2,000 and beyond into eternity, if you believe in him.” He probably knows a thing or two about productivity and time management, so let's listen to him.” I think that was the hook to the corral that I needed.
[00:34:16] JR: You know what’s funny? That line’s not in the book, but I – because listened, I wrote Redeeming Your Time for the church, for Christians, right? I unapologetically The Gospel is on almost every page of that book, but I've been asked to talk about Redeeming Your Time in a lot of corporate environments. Like I was in, I was at a MassMutual event in the Carolinas a couple weeks ago. If statistics are right, maybe 10% of that audience were serious followers of Jesus. Yeah, when you get up into a room like that and you say, “Hey, pretty hard to dispute that Jesus of Nazareth was the most productive person who ever walked the earth.” You’re like, say it, and you're like, watch people like, yeah, that makes sense. Time Magazine has called him the person of the last two millennia, right? What can we learn?
Then you tell him, “Oh, hey, by the way. There are four biographies written shortly after Jesus's death and resurrection of how this guy managed a 24-hour day. You want to learn more?” Oh, they want to learn more. Oh, they want to learn more. So anyways, I bring it up, because you're such a good example of this. I'm so grateful that you did this, because I think this God is using this book in some unexpected ways to open up conversations with non-believers, because everybody wants to redeem more time. They're open to hearing solutions, wherever that solution might come from. If they actually read the book, they are going to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ preached explicitly, right? Good encouragement to you guys listening, follow Shaun.
[00:35:53] SC: Yeah. I laugh, because I know how much of a planner you are. I know that in Jordan's mind, you had the next 10 years of this book's life.
[00:36:05] JR: Of course. Yeah.
[00:36:06] SC: Planned out to the tee. I just love to hear and I giggle inside that Jordan has these plans. This is what's going to happen, but God has so much more for us. He's like, “Just sit down Jordan and let me show you the real show looks like.”
[00:36:21] JR: “Sit down. Shut your mouth. Let me show you.” I love it so much. Hey, I want to ask you about one more thing that I've been privy to in some private conversations with you. You and I have talked through a number of difficult conversations, really difficult conversations you've had to have with leaders on your team, right? Some Christians, some not, I think you've learned a lot about confrontation over the last couple of years. I'm curious for you to share a little bit about how God's word has influenced your approach to those difficult conversations.
[00:36:52] SC: Well, we talked when we first started about the first 38 years of my life, coming into play now. I went to West Point, I went to the military academy, not because I had this altruistic heart, and I was going to go serve my country and do my part for society, because that was my only chance to play division one football [inaudible 00:37:13]. I went there.
[00:37:15] JR: That’s pretty darn good reason.
[00:37:16] SC: I enjoyed my time there. I had the honor of going to fight in combat. God taught me what a warrior looks like in the physical, obviously, but he taught me warfare, the art of warfare, he taught me what soldiering was, obedience, discipline, those sorts of things. He's allowed me to see the spiritual battle we're in much more clearly. I'm very confident in venturing into the fray. Actually, look for that tension. I look, now I do. I look for the conflict. So much of our society runs from conflict. We want to go to that safe, secure place, where everything's easy, the utopia, if you will. I think God calls us to be warriors in the spiritual fight.
[00:38:03] JR: Amen.
[00:38:05] SC: I actually run into the tension. Am I still scared? Am I fearful? Do I lack confidence? Absolutely, but that’s just where God calls me. I've learned more about Him through His image bearers. I've learned more about Him and His image bearers in those difficult conversations than in a lot of places. If you do it right, it allows you to see yourself and what you bring to the table, and will allow you to expose some things that maybe need to be purified a little bit in your own heart. Man, there's just so much to be gained in those difficult conversation.
What's amazing to me is my bent is I always look to the worst, okay. We're going to have this difficult conversation, I'm going to lose this relationship, but then this is going to happen and that's going to happen. In every case, when I go in back to the Genesis 2:25 mentality. When I go in vulnerable, and authentic, and real, and have that difficult conversation, every single time, the relationship has been stronger on the backend. I have to convince myself, I don't know, it may take few more years, but I have to convince myself that to see the beauty that's going to come from that difficult conversation.
[00:39:23] JR: That's good. That's a good word. Have there been any passages of scripture or books specifically on that topic that have really influenced your approach to resolving conflict?
[00:39:33] SC: I can't bring any to mind.
[00:39:36] JR: Yeah. You should teach a masterclass on this, because I've seen this by the seeds. You're really good at it.
[00:39:41] SC: Something I think God's putting on my heart to take what I've learned through warfare and apply it to the spiritual fight and call. Men especially, have a heart for men, but called men into the spiritual battle.
[00:39:57] JR: I love that.
[00:39:58] SC: I don’t know. Maybe there's a book there. I don’t know. We’ll see.
[00:40:01] JR: Sounds like there's a book there. All right, Shaun. You know the drill. Three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?
[00:40:13] SC: I heard Os Guinness on your podcast. He really tailors the book to the receiver. I tend to do that, but I will not evade the question and I'll give you – on Friday, I gave away a book that, man, I treasure. It’s called, The Waiting Father: Sermons on the Parable of Jesus. It's by an old German theologian, Helmut Thielicke. I had met this book, I actually, a mentor of mine gave me this book, probably a month into meeting Jesus. Wow, I mean, it's called The Waiting Father. I saw through the parables of Jesus, how much God loves me. It just wrecked me. It helped me have this fire and this love for Christ that has never waned. So that's when I gave away, because it was so impactful to me. I gave it away to somebody.
Just this morning, I've been walking with a gentleman for a few months now who's battling some things and he happens to be a father. I sent him The Intentional Father: A Practical Guide to Raise Sons of Courage and Character by Jon Tyson and David Kinnaman. I love that book. It's a little challenging, convicting in some ways, but man, what an idea. I love that John and David gave that to the world. Then I'm a big Jefferson Bethke fan. I love his book, Take Back Your Family. Really is a father of three young men. Man, it just made me rethink what I'm doing. Actually, taking a piece of that, my middle son just turned 13. So he and I are going to start doing morning devotionals next week.
[00:41:52] JR: I love it.
[00:41:52] SC: Very practical.
[00:41:53] JR: I'll just cosign any endorsement of Jeff and Jon. Which Speaking of which, I just realized we've never had either of them on this podcast, which is insane. I got to invite these guys on. If these two, I would say those two and Josh Straub, who I love, those three guys. I really trust deeply on parenting. I think the Intentional Father is the best book I've ever read on parenting. It's really written for fathers of sons. My listeners you know I have three daughters, but I still found a lot of application. I just thought it was phenomenal. Shaun, who do you want to hear on this podcast?
[00:42:32] SC: I have a cousin that lives in Austin. His name's Cameron Corbin. He is a pastor at Whitestone Church there in Lakeway, which is on the west side of Austin, but it's not a full time job for him. He's also a businessman. So he co-labors in two locations. I think it gives him a unique perspective. He absolutely loves Jesus. I think he would be a blessing on this podcast. I think people need to hear him speak. I think he has God's given him something to say. I'd love to hear Cameron Corbin.
[00:43:05] JR: That's a good recommendation. All right, Shaun, you're talking to an audience of Mere Christians like yourself. They're not pastors. They're not religious professionals. They're CEOs and tradesmen, and stay at home parents and nurses. What's one thing from our conversation today you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?
[00:43:27] SC: I think that God is in the every day. God is in the mundane. He's in the high points, the peaks, and the valleys, just join Him. Commune with Him. Speak with Him, be with Him in everything you do. He'll start to transform your heart, transform the things around you into something that's absolutely beautiful and something that you treasure and look forward to doing every day.
[00:43:56] JR: Shaun, brother. I love you. I just want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every single day for the glory of God and the good of others, for serving your customers and your team members through the Ministry of excellence. Man, for reminding us today of the God given dignity of all work, blue collar, white collar, purple collar, whatever collar that contributes to human flourishing.
Guys, if you want to learn more about Shaun, and his remarkable business, you can do so at pref-tech.com. That's pref-tech.com. You guys are hiring like crazy, right, Shaun? There's probably some jobs up there.
[00:44:40] SC: Absolutely. If you want some good work and you want to work here, by all means apply. We will teach you the trade.
[00:44:45] JR: I love it. Shaun, thanks for joining us.
[00:44:47] SC: Thank you, Jordan.
[OUTRO]
[00:44:50] JR: Man, I love that episode so much. I hope you guys did, too. Hey, by the way, I pretty much never talked about this publicly, but the reason why Shaun and I know each other so well is he's a part of a small mastermind I lead for Christian entrepreneurs, who are deeply serious about Jesus and building great businesses. We almost never have availability in the group. There's no availability right now, but you never know. Somebody might leave for whatever reason. We cap it at 12 people. So currently, we're all set, but if you have any interest in participating in that group in the future, and hanging out with Shaun and other founders like him, shoot me an email at hello@jordanraynor.com. We'll put you on the waiting list for when a spot does open up.
Guys. Thank you so much for tuning in to The Mere Christians podcast this week. We love making the show for you guys. I hope you guys love listening to it. I'll see you next week.
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