How obedience in the “little things” is non-verbal evangelism to the lost
How to ensure you aren’t stealing from your employer when you work from home, how Shannon’s repentance led to spiritual conversations at work, and why you should consider “following your pain” rather than your passions as you make career decisions.
Links Mentioned:
[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey friend, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as surgeons, personal trainers, and judges? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to Shannon Doss. She’s a social worker and licensed mental health therapist at California Online Public Schools.
But today, she’s just speaking for herself personally and her views are of course in no way reflective of her employer. Shannon and I recently sat down for terrific conversation about how to ensure that you are not stealing from your employer and discrediting your witness when you’re working from home. We talked about how Shannon’s repentance about gossip at work, led to some pretty remarkable changes in a workplace culture.
And we talked about why you should consider following your pain, rather than your passions, as you make career decisions. I loved this conversation, I’m confident you will too. Please enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Shannon Doss.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:26.3] JR: Hey Shannon Doss, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:28.4] SD: Thanks for having me.
[0:01:30.1] JR: I’m excited you’re here. Hey, I love asking long-time listeners, first-time callers this question, any favorite episodes of the podcast that you think our listeners need to go back and find?
[0:01:39.4] SD: I feel like I’m a little biased but I would have to say, Candice Levert’s podcast because she’s the one who introduced me to the podcast. She is an IT operations manager and she was talking a lot about how she brings the gospel even past the lunchtime conversation into just making organization, sometimes out of chaos, and fun fact, before I didn’t – I had no idea who your podcast was or anything like that before that episode. So, I would definitely say that would be my favorite because it brought me into the fold.
[0:02:08.0] JR: I love it.
[0:02:08.7] SD: Of Mere Christians.
[0:02:09.8] JR: I love it. Candice is great, she’s been a member of our Mere Christians Community for years and that’s a terrific episode to go listen to. All right, so Shannon, in the introduction, I introduced you as a social worker but let’s be honest, right? Social workers do a lot of different social work, right? That could mean a bunch of different things. So, what do you spend your time doing Monday through Friday? Take our listeners inside your world.
[0:02:34.2] SD: So, every day is an adventure. So, they never looked the same. Being that, I am a school social worker, it’s a lot different than maybe a typical county social worker that most people think of, and then on top of that, add layers of complexity because I go – I work at an online school. So, even more so, different than your typical. So, my Monday through Fridays look, my main roles are mental health and crisis intervention for our students.
Mental health and crisis intervention, so a lot of our students that are struggling with maybe suicidal thoughts, usually the first point of contact to get them support. I also do counseling, so therapeutic interventions for some of our students, community resources, and advocacy for our homeless and foster families. I also am in program development, so I’m developing or helping to develop social, and emotional learning to support those proactive skills for our students.
I also supervise four social work interns to help me with the work because I’m the only social worker for our 7,500 kids. So, I get help from our interns, and then beyond that, just a lot of meetings. Lots of meetings.
[0:03:48.3] JR: Hold on a second, you’re the only full-time social worker, this is California Online Public Schools, correct? So, 7,500 kids, you’re the only social worker.
[0:03:57.6] SD: That, I am.
[0:03:58.8] JR: That’s wild.
[0:03:59.8] SD: Yes. So, it’s been a ride, it’s – I love it but I have to bring on some help because of that.
[0:04:05.9] JR: Yeah, no joke. That’s really intense. Hey, so you mentioned foster care, if I’m remembering this correctly from our pre-interview that we did back last year, you yourself spent time in the foster care system as a kid, is that right?
[0:04:17.9] SD: So, I was in foster care from the ages of, well, on my 16th birthday actually, that is when I had my first court date. So, 16th birthday until I was 18, and I went to college and kind of exited the system. So, yeah, but before that, I was with family from 14 to 16. So, kind of like kinship foster but not officially, until when I was 16, that’s when I entered the system.
[0:04:44.6] JR: Was that part of the motivation for doing the work you’re doing now?
[0:04:47.4] SD: Oh yes, of course. I definitely feel that kind of launched me into the helping profession that I’m in today.
[0:04:56.3] JR: Was there a moment where you’re like, “All right, I came from this painful situation and I know I want to go back and work in the system that I came from.” Was there a moment? Was it many moments over time? Talk about that.
[0:05:07.5] SD: Definitely many moments over a time. When we first entered – sorry, I say “we” because I have a twin sister. So, we did this together but when we first entered into foster care, at 16, we had a social worker, a county social worker, and she wasn’t a good social worker. Because we seemed pretty well-adjusted as teenagers, we didn’t get a lot of support. It was like, “Okay, cool, you’re great.”
And so, that kind of prompted me to say, “Okay, there’s a way to write that wrong,” type of thing but when we were in school or high school, we had very supportive adults at our school. So, we had a teacher who now, he became my God dad and he walked me down the aisle when I got married. We had a counselor that really supported us, and so I wanted to be in schools to be that for some students, and then not having a good social worker, I felt like, “Okay, I could do social work,” then when I found out I can do it in schools, I’m like, “Perfect, that is my career.”
[0:06:06.9] JR: I love it. I love it so much. It reminds me of Romans 8:28 through 29. God promises to work all things for the good of those who love him, very important, the last part of that, and it feels like that’s part of your story, right? You know, you look in that, okay, you come from this hard thing being in the foster care system but God is redeeming it to equip you with empathy for doing the work you’re doing today.
Do you see a correlation there? Do you believe that your work in social work today is part of the good that you can see that came from your time in the foster care system?
[0:06:39.3] SD: Yes. I sure hope so that I’m doing the good but yeah, for sure. I think, like you said, the word empathy, I think what I’ve been through has really given me the empathy and compassion for students. It was – it might surprise you but not all adults that work in schools have that, and so I bring, I think, a special level of compassion for some of our most vulnerable kids that they really needed.
And I think that helps – I forget what the research says but there’s research out there that says having supportive adults at school, it really does impact student academic achievement, and so I pray that I’m a part of that but based on what the Lord has done for me, for sure.
[0:07:20.5] JR: I was reading this story a couple of months ago, it’s a wild dramatic story about this woman who lived in the 1700s in Great Britain. Her name was Josephine Butler and when her daughter was six years old, Josephine was standing on the bottom floor of this – there had to be a two, three story place in Britain, and watched her six-year-old daughter fall from the Banister and die.
She couldn’t help her, watched her kid die right in front of her eyes. Obviously, enters into this time of deep and dark depression but the thing God used to bring her out of it was this question of, “Who is in more pain than I am, and how might I serve them through my work?” And so, she goes out and she works for the rights of the poor. She’s basically a political activist for the rights of the poor all throughout Great Britain.
And what I loved about the story is she allowed God to transform her pain into empathy, right? To transform her heartbreak into this heart that was radically transformed and prepared to serve others and I don't know, I think that’s what people like you are doing, right? It’s a really beautiful way I think to think about vocational discernment because so much of the conversation around calling tends to focus on following your passions. You followed your pain, right?
[0:08:45.2] SD: Yeah, that’s exactly it. Wow, I’ve never heard that story actually, so I’m going to have to look her up because that does sound a lot like – well, given the facts are not the same but the same in how the Lord works in her pain to definitely help her to help others.
[0:09:02.6] JR: Yeah, you got to read that story, it’s a great story, Josephine Butler. All right, so it’s clear to me how your faith is shaping what you're doing professionally. Let’s talk about how achieving how you do what you do professionally, and when I ask you that question a few months ago, I loved the story you shared. It was this really great case study about gossip at work, and this is something that I know a lot of our listeners can resonate with and have experienced at work.
Can you share the story with our listeners about the gossip you saw in that kind of virtual group chat?
[0:09:31.3] SD: Yes. So, just a little back story, we – because we’re online, so we try to form community and in ways that maybe a little not conventional because we can’t go to the break room. So, we do have different chats, where coworkers kind of form group chats based on like affinity groups or something, and so there was an affinity group that I’m still a part of for our African-American staff at our school.
It’s optional, so you don’t have to join if you don’t want to. So, a few of us have joined and I want to say last year, being a part of that group, it became a space to vent, and oftentimes, sometimes unproductive and –
[0:10:08.4] JR: There’s a fine line between gossip and venting.
[0:10:11.0] SD: Yes, for sure, and it crossed that line a lot of times, and there were times, completely honest, that I was a part of that. Like, I was frustrated too. So, I’m like, “Yeah.” And so, we’re all just kind of riling each other up and I got convicted, and I was like, “Shannon,” like, the Lord, I don't know what happened but I was convicted and I was like, “This is not honoring to God.”
And so, I actually went forth and told everyone in the group how I would need to take a step back from the group and I told them why. I said, I felt convicted, I was very honest about the Lord doing that convicting, and that I even, I think I might have quoted Ephesians 4:29, letting all our speech be fitting to the occasion and let it build up and how the speech was not building up, and so I took a step back and a few people actually messaged me after privately.
And we're very, I guess, surprised but also happy because they also felt the weight of the conversations did not – they weren’t necessarily Christians, so they wouldn’t say, “Honor God” but they felt like it was not just a good use of our time ethically for the company and so, we did actually reform the group chat. We changed the name of it and everything, and now, it’s where we share funny memes and just kind of lighthearted stuff, events that are going on in our lives in different ways to build each other up, actually.
[0:11:36.2] JR: Man, I love this so much. We talk so much on this podcast about using work to, you know, renew entire industries or entire workplace cultures, like, but this is such a beautiful micro example of that of allowing the Holy Spirit to convict and transform one small corner of one workplace in such a beautiful way but it sounds like, your simple act of obedience and repenting of that seen publically has fairly significantly changed the workplace culture at least with regards to this one instance of gossip, right?
[0:12:13.5] SD: Yeah. I would say so. I would say that at least I don’t hear it anymore now, there might be another chat that I’m not a part of –
[0:12:20.4] JR: Sure, sure-sure.
[0:12:21.5] SD: But I do think that at least, this space, it has become more positive and honestly, this school year has felt more light, and I felt more refreshed and I feel like others have probably felt the same because we’re not engaging in workplace gossip.
[0:12:35.7] JR: What do you think were the prerequisites for hearing that conviction from the Holy Spirit about that sin? Because all of us are sinning every day at work. Not everybody is cognizant of that sin, here’s the conviction of that sin, much less, has the courage to obey scripture’s command to repent of it. So, what do you think were the preconditions that made space for you to hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit with regards to the situation?
[0:13:08.4] SD: I would definitely say what I think David Mathis refers to as habits of grace. So, being really intentional about my time in the word, and I wasn’t like studying gossip or anything but just my heart is primed towards conviction because I’m allowing. I’m not quenching the Holy Spirit, I’m allowing him to work because I’m reading and my church is a great place to go and get fed and praying and fellowshipping with other believers.
And so, I think really engaging the things that make my heart just open to conviction and to the grace of the Lord, I think really kind of primed me to be convicted because I would prefer to you know, be able to just go through life and feel good but –
[0:13:52.1] JR: Wouldn’t we all?
[0:13:54.2] SD: The Lord is like, “No, we got some work to do to be more like Christ.” So, yeah.
[0:13:58.0] JR: Oh man, so – it’s so good, and I love how simple that answer is but I do think that’s the answer. It’s just time in the work, time in Christian community, time, I would argue, time sitting under teaching of the word that’s not meant to make you feel better about yourself but meant to convict you. Like, a couple of years ago, I had a friend of mine visit our local church, and afterwards, I asked him like, what he thought. He’s like, “Man, I don’t like the way I feel leaving here.” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s the point,” right? Like, that should be the point.
[0:14:34.4] SD: You cannot leave the same.
[0:14:35.4] JR: I’m so sick and tired of preachers who treat Sunday morning as a pep rally to make us feel good like we are supposed to feel convicted and broken so that we can better appreciate the mercy and grace we’ve been shown by God through Jesus Christ, amen?
[0:14:50.8] SD: For sure. We don’t need another motivational speech, we get enough of that in the world.
[0:14:55.8] JR: That’s exactly right, that’s exactly right. So, I love the simplicity of that answer. I’m curious, after you came forth, repented of this to your coworkers, did it open up any spiritual conversations with believers or nonbelievers on your team? Did anybody ask like, “Hey, tell me more about this? Like, why did you do this, you could have just, you know, gone with the flow?” Like, talk about that a little bit.
[0:15:17.7] SD: I would say, they probably weren’t – at least, the ones that I talk to afterwards because there were a few individuals that messaged me. I don't know their spiritual condition as far as whether they’re saved or not but it did open the door for those conversations where I could be more personal about why I was publicly repenting because one young lady did message me and was kind of like, “Well, you didn’t have to do that.”
Like, “Why did you go for it in front of everybody?” It’s very public. I think there’s like 30 of us in the chat, and I’m like, “Because I sinned in front of everybody, so I need to come forth and repent in front of everybody.” She didn’t understand but she respected it. She was like, “That’s, you know, that’s real,” she used the word tough, “That’s real tough,” and I’m like, “Yeah.”
[0:16:04.9] JR: It is real tough. It’s so rare. Like, how many times do we see leaders in organizations repenting in a public form like that?
[0:16:13.6] SD: Not much, and the other thing, when you said leaders, it did remind me that like, I have such a set apart role that although I’m not in a leadership position, I am sort of leading the way. We don’t have other mental health professionals, and so to a lot of my coworkers –
[0:16:29.6] JR: You’re the de facto leader of the mental health department.
[0:16:32.1] SD: Yes, and the one that’s just me, and so to many of my coworkers, I am a leader in a sense because they even said that, and I’m like, “Oh.” Because they mentioned, like what you said, not a lot of leaders apologize for things, and I’m like, “I don’t even see myself as a leader.” But yeah. So, for sure, it’s not common in the workplace.
[0:16:50.5] JR: Yeah. It’s good, it’s really good. When you look back, how long have you been at the California Online Public Schools?
[0:16:57.6] SD: Almost three years.
[0:16:58.5] JR: Almost three years.
[0:16:58.9] SD: So, not too long.
[0:17:01.4] JR: Would you point to this as the most glaring example of how you’ve worked distinctly because of your apprenticeship to Jesus Christ?
[0:17:11.3] SD: Yes, for sure. This probably was the most – because it wasn’t the most recent but definitely the most blatant, like, “Okay God, this is for you.” Because sometimes, I just come in and do my work but this, I think, really solidify like, you are here as the light for Christ, not – and to do your work but do that in a way that glorifies Him.
[0:17:31.6] JR: That’s exactly right, that’s exactly right. What else can you point to over your three years there that you go, “Man, that decision, that situation, the way I handled that could really only be fully explained because of my faith in Christ?”
[0:17:45.7] SD: I would say more simply, some of the day-to-day stuff, such as just coming in because working online, you can take advantage of the time.
[0:17:55.0] JR: Yeah.
[0:17:55.3] SD: Very much so.
[0:17:56.1] JR: Yes, talk about this, come on.
[0:17:58.2] SD: So, you could definitely go get your nails done, there’s times, I heard of people doing it, and so I use my time to do the work that I was hired to do. Now, I take breaks, I get up, because sitting all day is very hard. So, I’ll get up, I have a sit-to-stand desk, I get on my treadmill and I’m doing notes while I’m on the treadmill but I’m intentional about making sure that I make the most of my time.
Now, when there’s downtime and the boss is like, “Yeah,” you know, they’re encouraging me to go, you know, go for a walk or something, I’ll do that but for the most part, I try to do what I was hired to do because that is what the Lord calls me to do, and it’s not easy because I’m very much tempted to go binge-watch that TV show and do all the things that, you know, the laundry that’s sitting over there in the corner.
But I do think that the Lord calls me to a higher standard when it comes to the way in which I do my work.
[0:18:59.0] JR: It’s really good. It reminds me of Titus 2:9-10, Paul is talking to slaves and masters and you know, any time we come across that language in the scripture, I hesitate to share but in scripture, right? And I think we can think about this as a rhetorical amplifier, as Tim Keller has shared in some commentaries. We’re talking, you know, in our modern context as put it as employee-employer for the sake of oversimplifying things for time.
He says, “Hey, slaves, do not steal from your masters to show them that they can be fully trusted so that in every way, they will make the teaching about God, our Savior, attractive,” right? Like, when we steal from our employers, and I would argue this is very common today with people who are working remotely and stealing time, we are doing it to the detriment of the gospel.
And those chances that we do have, those rare chances that we do have to explicitly proclaim the gospel to our coworkers, that’s going to fall on deaf ears if our employers have any reason to suspect that we are stealing from them as we are working from home, amen?
[0:20:08.0] SD: Amen, and I must say that this has not – although I’ve been saved for many years and I’ve only been here three, that wasn’t always the mentality. I had to grow into that and –
[0:20:18.7] JR: You’re sanctifying, yeah.
[0:20:19.8] SD: Yes, as there were times where I would take advantage of the time and so I don’t want the listeners to think, “Oh, she’s just so great.” It’s the Lord and that He’s working, so yes.
[0:20:29.9] JR: Where is the line though? So, talk really practically to our listeners who are in your situation. They’re working from home, and when you’re working from home, you do have more flexibility than you do when you go in an office. So, what’s the line between flexibility and stealing? Like, how do you discern, you know, how long to take a lunch break, when to do your workouts, like how? Have you thought about this a lot, Shannon?
[0:20:53.2] SD: Yeah, I try to – well, I will say to everyone, much prayer because every situation can look different but for one, I definitely am very open with my supervisor, and so that helps because then there is no conviction about like, “Oh, am I, am I not?” like I’m not sure because I do have two little ones that I have to pick up from school and take to school and usually those are doing work hours.
And so, they’re like, “Oh, no, go for it, just put it on your calendar, and then there are times where I’ve asked like, “Hey, I need to take a few hours to do an errand,” and they’re like, “Just flex your time.” So, they’re okay with it as long as I do and fill in the time somewhere else. So, I would say and this might be scary to a lot of people but if you feel like you cannot be open with your supervisor and ask, then it’s probably not something you should be doing on the work time.
And then, I would also say you kind of know your schedule and so in the morning, there’s typically everyone’s checking their emails, that’s pretty much the work culture, and so in the mornings, I check in my emails. If there’s not a lot going on, then I might do my little workout but I keep my computer nearby because that’s priority, and so there are times where I might do other things but my supervisor is usually aware of it and I keep work right there just in case.
But I think it teethers into that line of taking advantage or stealing time when we’re maybe a day where like the whole day we’re just not doing any work when you’re not productive at work at all when you are – I would say the Holy Spirit is pretty clear. If you feel that little, “Uh, maybe not,” it’s probably the Holy Spirit telling you that’s not what you need to be doing.
[0:22:39.5] JR: That’s right. Yeah, I think a good rule of thumb is like, listen, imagine your boss is there physically with you, would you be comfortable doing what you’re doing, right?
[0:22:49.9] SD: Right.
[0:22:50.5] JR: Like, that’s how we should be treating this and again, for the sake of the gospel, right? Paul makes this super, super clear in Titus and other passages. Hey, Shannon, that’s super practical, super helpful. I want to touch on something else you mentioned in our pre-interview way back last year, you mentioned that there were some changes going on in your organization at the time.
I don’t know if this is still true but it was six months ago, they were opening up some career advancement opportunities but you mentioned that you were going after those opportunities in a very different way, by God’s grace, than some of your non-Christian coworkers. I’m curious what you’ve learned about what it looks like to pursue career advancement in a distinctly Christ-like way.
[0:23:34.8] SD: Yeah. So, in all cool transparency, I don’t remember what I said so I’m just going to – in that pre-interview but I think I do know that there has been a lot of shifts and set time in our organization. I know one of the things that I – there wasn’t necessarily a position for me open because there’s just one of me but there – any time there’s like a huge shift in organizations, there is sometimes room for new change.
We were opening up a lot of other different roles and so I was like, “Okay, this might be…” I do have a passion to move up and advance and that took a lot to even say publically because I felt like that’s not the Christian thing. Like, you just should be satisfied but I do believe that the Lord is honored when we want to advance for good purpose. I would love to do program development and really support our students on a larger scale.
And so, that’s a passion but with that, I felt like there were a lot of coworkers that I talk to that maybe we’re grabbing opportunities in ways that were maybe unethical or just kind of stepping over each other to get there and I think that was an approach that I’m just used to in just work culture but I’m like, “That’s not the way to do this.” And so, I got to know a lot of people. I sat down with a lot of people, well, virtually anyway, and just listen to others.
And so, I think I took the time to collaborate, which is not always the way that most people do it in the workplace is always one man out for themselves. I got to know people and I let them get to know me, some of the passions that I have, and I think also just using my gifts and talents in a way that honors the Lord, and so really, I would say that I haven’t advanced anywhere but I do feel like I’m getting to know folks and I have more of an ear maybe with leadership now because I’m –
The way I approached it I think is very humble. I don’t know everything, I’m trying to learn more but I am also trying to help my – I think my motives were pretty pure and I pray for that every day because it’s easy to get caught up in wanting to be the best. I try to really make sure my motives are pure and I think it shows.
[0:26:02.3] JR: That’s really good. So, go back to those conversation, you said as opportunities are opening up, you’re meeting with people, and you’re listening. You’re trying to understand what they want, I don’t want to put words in your mouth but it sounds to me, I want to clarify, that you’re trying to understand the career ambitions are of your team, right? You are trying to understand what they want and where they want to go so that you could support them however you possibly can. Is that what those meetings look like?
[0:26:30.6] SD: Some of them, yes. So, there are times because there are a few spaces there I am – it’s weird. Like I said, I am not in official leadership capacity but there are spaces where I’m leading teams towards common goals and so in some of those spaces, I am, “What do you think the team should do?” I try to develop I guess it’s called a shared vision. So, it’s not just Shannon’s vision, “What do I see, what do I want, what direction should we go?”
But, “What does everyone see as best for our students and best for the staff that we’re supporting?” And a lot of times, sometimes it’s not what I would have thought and what the direction I would have gone but I submit to the fact that the group consensus is different than mine and most of the time, it’s actually better than what I could have thought, and so yeah, for sure that’s definitely part of it.
[0:27:20.2] JR: Yeah, and all of this you’re reminding me of one of my favorite passages in the scripture in Philippians two, where Paul says, “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. In humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.” I just think it’s really interesting that you went there when talking about career advancement.
Like, you’re talking about listening rather than talking and posturing and positioning. I think that’s a really beautiful way to think about career advancement. I do want to circle back to something you said that I think a lot of our listeners will resonate with. You talked about this guilt that you felt about wanting career advancement, wanting higher levels of responsibilities. What convinced you that the Lord is, as you said and I agree, honored in some of our desires for promotions and career advancement?
[0:28:13.7] SD: I would say I think of stories like just in the Bible, I think of how the Lord advanced those to do His work. I think of Joseph, who started from very, very humble means. I would even say below humble, it was just terrible what was happening to him, and the Lord elevated him, and there’s – it’s all throughout the Bible that those who humble themselves, the Lard exalts and not in a way that will keep us puffed up.
But in a way that exalts Him, and so I do think that that kind of changed my perspective in just reading about how the Lord does put people in position so that they can impact change for His kingdom to make the world today just a little bit better than it was yesterday, and so I do think that that’s kind of impacted it. I will say sometimes I still struggle, like, “Oh gosh,” but I think that’s me, the Lord trying to keep me humble.
Like, “Hey, this is not about you,” and when you do start feeling like it’s about you, the Lord kind of brings me down and it’s about me and not in a way that’s harmful but in a way that’s just eye-opening.
[0:29:18.3] JR: It’s good. Yeah, I think a lot of those stories especially in the Old Testament, Joseph, Daniel, where you see rapid career assent. There is other-worldly humility exhibited in that person and when they have a chance to boast in themselves, they’re boasting the Lord. Like when Joseph is trying to get out of prison and you know Pharoah asked, “Hey, can you interpret my dream?”
Joseph says, “No, but God can, and I am his willing servant,” right? Like that’s true humility shining through and I think, oftentimes, not always, but I think, oftentimes, that’s who God uses and wants to put in places of power for His glory and the good of others, amen?
[0:30:00.2] SD: And there’s – it might feel different for believers when they’re in a none – where they’re in a secular work environment for sure but I definitely try to do that as well. There’s times where they’ll like, our staff will do a staff spotlight or something like that and it goes out to everyone, and I share my faith in every single time they do that. So, they might stop asking me, I don't know but it’s – I’m going to do what Joseph did, not me but the Lord, for sure.
[0:30:26.0] JR: Amen. “Yet, not I but through Christ in me.” Hey, Shannon, four questions we wrap up every episode of this podcast with. Number one, looking ahead to the new earth, Isiah 65 promises, we will all long enjoy the work of our hands. What work would you love to enjoy to God’s greater glory, free from the curse of sin on the new earth?
[0:30:44.7] SD: Yes, so, I have two because I’ve definitely thought about this.
[0:30:47.3] JR: I love it. I’ve got like, 10. So, two sounds great, yeah.
[0:30:50.1] SD: I’m like, “Okay Lord, I don’t know if there will be food” but –
[0:30:55.8] JR: The scripture promises there will be.
[0:30:57.9] SD: Oh, so amen. I would love to be a taste tester for whatever the Lord’s about to serve everybody.
[0:31:03.1] JR: That’s –
[0:31:03.7] SD: I am a foodie.
[0:31:04.5] JR: A dope answer. That’s so good, I love that.
[0:31:06.5] SD: Yes, I’m such a foodie. So, if I could just taste test before you send it out, I know it’s going to be perfect anyway but you know, I would just like to be the first to taste it, that will be amazing. My second is I would love to be a greeter. So, you know, when people are – I just imagine on their way, like going through the gates, I’m just standing there like, “Welcome, you know, this is the best place on, you know, ever, and so welcome, glad you’re here.” I love people, so I just like to be social. So, I would love to do that for the rest of eternity.
[0:31:36.5] JR: That’s so good. I literally was just talking to somebody. Peter Greer, who I think his episode is actually dropping the week after yours, who had the same exact answer. He wanted to be a greeter, that’s so funny.
[0:31:46.7] SD: Look at that.
[0:31:47.8] JR: I like that answer, I really like taste tester though, that’s really good.
[0:31:50.8] SD: Yes.
[0:31:51.5] JR: That’s really good. All right, Shannon, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying more than once to give away to friends?
[0:31:59.1] SD: So, I like, or love Brant Hansen’s books. There is two that I really would say, one is, Unoffendable and one is The Truth About Us. I think that’s what it’s called, and both of them are just pretty much like, putting us in our place in a very humble and funny way. He has a great sense of humor in those books but it is all about, like, the Lord’s glory in what we do and trying to make sure that we understand that so that we can be unoffendable, and so that we can just live life with peace. Like, why am I walking around offended all the time?
[0:32:32.9] JR: It’s really good. I am – this is going to be offensive, I have not read Unoffendable, which is insane because this book has been just absolutely mammoth, and has been selling like crazy for about two years now.
[0:32:46.2] SD: Yes.
[0:32:48.2] JR: I got to add it to my list.
[0:32:48.7] SD: It’s a great book.
[0:32:50.7] JR: All right, Shannon, your friend, Candice Levert, recommended that we have you on the podcast. Who do you recommend that we have on this podcast to talk about how their faith is shaping the work they do in the world?
[0:33:00.5] SD: So, I believe, and this might be a little biased but my husband, Lawrence Doss. He is a referee.
[0:33:08.9] JR: Oh, come on.
[0:33:10.8] SD: Yes, that’s his part-time but he does referees for college football and he’s always very much – we’re talking, spiritually converse – spiritual conversations about how he wants to honor the Lord in the work that he does. He’s also advancing, and he wants to honor the Lord in his advancement. He’s very much intentional that the Lord shines through his actions, and he’s not like, out there preaching the gospel to all his referee buddies. The way in which he does his work, it really inspires me to even do the work that I do.
[0:33:42.1] JR: Oh my gosh, I love this answer.
[0:33:44.4] SD: When he listens – yes
[0:33:45.3] JR: Will you please connect me with your husband?
[0:33:48.2] SD: I will, I’m going to tell him. I told him this morning, I said, “You know, I’m going to mention you, right?” He’s like, “No.” Because that was my –
[0:33:53.6] JR: I’m looking him up right now, this is legit. He’s refereeing some big games here, D1 College Football.
[0:33:58.4] SD: Yup, D1 Football.
[0:33:59.0] JR: Okay, all right, send me, connect me to Lawrence, I love that. We’ve never had a referee on the show. I love when we find obscure, I don't know if we could call referee obscure, but just vocations that we’ve never had in the show before. I love it. I’m all about it.
[0:34:11.7] SD: Yes.
[0:34:12.4] JR: All right, Shannon. We’ve talked about a lot of different things on the podcast today, what’s one thing you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?
[0:34:21.4] SD: I think I will want to say to listeners to really get that the way we do our work daily should mirror what God expects or it should glorify God daily. So, not just in the big moments but in the way in which we take pins from the breakroom like we shouldn’t do that, that’s stealing. The way in which we use our time, the way in which we talk to others. I think all things can point to the glory of God even if we’re not explicitly sharing the gospel.
And so, I would encourage everyone to do their work in a way that glorifies the Lord and that is – I forget the scripture but I think Paul says that we want to be acting in a manner that’s worthy of the calling that we’ve received, and so I would say that will be that. I would encourage all our listeners to do that.
[0:35:16.8] JR: That’s right, and I’m also thinking of Paul’s words in I Corinthians 10:31. Whether you eat or drink.
[0:35:22.8] SD: Yes.
[0:35:23.8] JR: Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. The way you work from home, do it for the glory of God. The way that you engage in the chatroom or Slack channel, do it all for the glory of God. The way that you don’t take pens, as seemingly insignificant as that is from the break room, do it all for the glory of God, and all of these is evangelism. All of this, this is what we miss, all of this is evangelism.
All of it is testifying to the type of God that we say we believe in, that we say that we serve, and Shannon, you are a terrific example. I know an imperfect one but a terrific example of what it looks like to declare the glories of God with excellence in how you work. So, I just want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for allowing the Lord to transform your heartbreak, as I said before, into a heart that serves others through the ministry of excellence.
And just for giving us really good, seemingly small, but I would argue, big in the grand scheme of eternity, just beautiful case studies of what it looks like to work with obedience. Hey, Shannon, if people want to connect with you, where’s the best place for them to do that, is it LinkedIn?
[0:36:40.6] SD: Yes. I am no longer on social media. So, I had some struggles and I needed to get off but yes, I’m still on LinkedIn. So, they can find me there and some of the professional things that I’ve done, it’s all on my LinkedIn.
[0:36:54.3] JR: Shannon, thanks for spending time with us today.
[0:36:55.9] SD: Thank you so much for having me.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:36:59.3] JR: I love that episode so much. I hope her husband is able to come on the podcast. By the way, we need more guests from the world of sports. So, if you know somebody who is deeply integrating their faith into their work in the arena of sports beyond, you know, the typical point your finger in the air and give God credit for a touchdown, I want to hear about them. Let me know about them at JordanRaynor.com/contact. Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week, I’ll see you next time.
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