Kill your backup plans today
Jordan Raynor sits down with Sean Devereaux, Executive Producer, to talk about how the Oscar process works, how he’s seen working with joy as a means to win people to Christ, and why you need to kill your backup plan today.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who is pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work.
Today's episode is a fun one. Today, I've got my friend, Sean Devereaux. He's an executive producer and visual effects artist for major films like Transformers, No Big Deal, Patriot’s Day, American Underdog, I could go on and on and on. Sean and I talked about a lot of fun stuff about how the Wicked Witch of the West traumatized both of our childhoods. We talked about how the Oscar process works, and why you need to kill your backup plans for your work today. You're going to love this episode. Please enjoy it with Sean Devereaux.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:19] JR: Sean Devereaux, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:21] SD: Thank you for having me, Jordan, very glad to be here.
[00:01:24] JR: So I got to ask. We're recording this like, I don't know, a week or two after maybe the most infamous Oscar event of all time. You're a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Were you there? Were you in the room for the slap?
[00:01:41] SD: I'm glad to say I was not in the room. I'm glad I wasn't one of the people that stood up and gave him a standing ovation when the award has won, but with a crowd mentality, it was something that could have happened, especially on a night that's so crazy, and the cameras are everywhere. I'm really glad I'm not one of the people that says, “Yeah, I showed up at the end, too.”
[00:01:59] JR: What a wild night.
[00:02:01] SD: It’s the wildest ever. It's really such a sad thing that that happened, especially with movie theaters in particular. I really have a heart for them as a fan of cinema. It really doesn't impact my ability to do my work or affect my career, because there's all these streaming services now that I get to create work for. But as a fan of cinema, the Oscars are an unabashed advertisement for selling tickets to theaters. Even before COVID, of course, theaters were having a hard time keeping up with the video game competition and streaming, and then COVID hit and literally shut them down. For me, the Oscars is that kind of the biggest billboard in the world for go see a movie in the theater, and then everyone's talking about a slap rather than let's go see the best movies of the year back in theaters.
[00:02:45] JR: Yeah. I've always been fascinated by the process of the academy, and how this all works. What's the basics of this? You're in the inside, how does the process of voting for the Oscar winners work?
[00:02:58] SD: So it's obviously really fun. The academy is actually broken up into different branches. For example, there's a music branch, there's a sound branch, there's an acting branch, there's a visual effects branch, and the individual branches actually select the nominees. For example, I'm not in the acting branch, so I don't get to help pick who gets nominated. The acting branch, that the people specializing in that skill, or that craft, pick the best of the best of the year. And then once all the nominees are chosen, then as a group, we collectively, we get to vote on all categories.
The process takes a couple months, and it's well vetted. And we have access, of course, all the movies that come out over the course of the year, which is by far the greatest benefit as a movie fan. I try to watch as many as I can. And then, especially for the ones within my branch, which is visual effects. I try to definitely watch every one and really take into consideration every nominee and a lot of them now, that's one of my friends. So it's kind of hard to – you can't play favorites, because they're all my favorites now.
[00:03:57] JR: Yeah, exactly. Wait, so how does this work? Is there like an exclusive Academy app where you stream all this content?
[00:04:06] SD: Yes, there is. So they used to send us these wonderful 4k Blu-rays that we could grow home. And then you know, once in a while, they may slip out and let a friend borrow. Now, it's exclusively digital. So we have an app on our phones on our laptops, and of course, Apple TV and Roku, and things like that. So you can just watch it at the comfort of your home. Or we often get free tickets to theaters, of course, to go see it.
[00:04:26] JR: I'm not a big movie buff. I know, I shouldn't be admitting this to you.
[00:04:30] SD: No, you should be.
[00:04:31] JR: I'm huge into TV. I love television. But I did watch CODA before the Oscars, and I just loved the film. It's such a big heart. It wasn't dark. It was just a beautiful film, and I was really happy to see it win.
[00:04:48] SD: I was too. I voted for it. I loved the film. A lot of my friends made it. It was made back in my hometown in Boston or right outside of there in Gloucester. It was just so sweet and so poignant and grounded and truthful, and let us see into a world that I don't think many of us don't know what it's like to be the only hearing member of a deaf family. So seeing that point of view and just wonderful emotional scenes, but also funny. I mean, I thought the balance of both humor and drama and relationships is so wonderful, so wonderful.
[00:05:20] JR: Speaking of another best picture winner. There's this scene of Chariots of Fire that a lot of Christians are familiar with, where Eric Liddell is explaining to his sister why he wants to be a runner, and not a missionary. He says, “Because when I run, I feel God's pleasure.” I think a lot of people have experienced that, but have a really hard time defining that. But I actually think the best explanation of what it looks like to feel God's pleasure came from CODA. It’s the scene where – I can't remember the protagonist’s name, the girl.
[00:05:59] SD: Oh, my gosh. I’m on the spot now. What is it?
[00:06:00] JR: Okay. The main character is talking to her music teacher. And the music teacher says, “What do you feel when you sing?” And she can't articulate it with words, so she uses sign language to communicate.
[00:06:15] SD: Wasn't that beautiful?
[00:06:16] JR: Oh, my gosh, I was like, “That's feeling God's pleasure.” That's what it is. I just thought it was really great. You and I've connected before, but I've never asked you this. Did you want to work in movies from an early age? Was this always your dream?
[00:06:31] SD: I knew at the age of four that this is what I wanted to do the rest of my life.
[00:06:35] JR: Wait, what was the movie? Was it like ET? What got you into this?
[00:06:38] SD: The Wizard of Oz.
[00:06:39] JR: It's so good.
[00:06:41] SD: It wasn't because I was so moved by it, emotional, or excited when Dorothy got home. It's because of the Wicked Witch of the West scared me so severely, that I felt A, I'd never felt that emotion that strong in my life. And at that point, and to this day, I honestly don't think I felt that emotion as strong as the fear I felt watching the Wicked Witch of the West burst into flames and dissolve into the ground on a little 13-inch colored TV, by the way. That was not in theaters. But the emotion was so strong that my initial reaction was complete blood curdling fear. But then in hindsight, quickly after, it was tremendous curiosity and then wanting to do that to other people. Not necessarily the fear, but wanting to figure out a way to help people feel those kinds of strong emotions through this little flat screen in front of me.
[00:07:27] JR: So funny. My first memory of a film is also the Wizard of Oz. I remember the first dream I can remember is the Wicked Witch laughing. It's her face laughing at me. I remember I had the dream like multiple times. It's very disturbing that both of us had very disturbing experiences with the Wicked Witch.
[00:07:49] SD: Well, her performance was terrifying. I just watched the movie again two weeks ago, actually. I still get chills up my spine when I hear that “Dat, dat, dat.” It still gets me.
[00:08:01] JR: Yeah. How'd you get your first break in this industry?
[00:08:05] SD: So, I went to college, I went to Fitchburg State University, kind of a small school in Central Massachusetts, that was right down the street from my house. At this point, although I knew I wanted to make movies, I also knew I didn't know a single person who ever been to a movie set, let alone made a living there. I studied graphic design, because that's what I felt like I could get a job at and I had some raw talent there. So I thought you could do that and kind of talk myself out of it. And God had other plans because he got me through my graphic design program in just over a year, and then I was bored and had to do Gen Ed's. I’m like, “I don’t want to Gen Ed's all the time.” So I'll take one film class.
Of course, I took one film class, rolled one can of reversal eight-millimeter film stock, projected it and knew without question that is what God needs me to be doing, and I had to do it. So finished a film degree as well, and moved out to Los Angeles to do an unpaid internship at a company called Digital Domain, which had just won the Academy Award for Titanic. When I got there, they were already about three people at the time, and they were working seven days a week finishing a movie. Of course, my internship only required me to show up from like, say nine to six, yeah, Monday through Friday. But once I was like, I didn't want to go anywhere else. I was there. I was first one there in the morning, last one to leave there seven days a week. If they were there. I was there basically as my role. And I loved every minute of it.
Within two weeks, I was hired as a technical assistant and not because of any skills I had, but simply because on a Sunday afternoon, I was cleaning the kitchen, because the cleaning crew doesn't came in on weekends, but the whole crew was eating lunch there. So it was a mess. Without being asked, I cleaned the kitchen, a producer caught me and she asked me, “What are you doing when you're done with your internship?” And I said, “I don't know.” She said, “You're hired.”
[00:09:40] JR: That's amazing.
[00:09:40] SD: That's how I got my break by cleaning a kitchen. My mom was very surprised with that story because I never cleaned her kitchen without her asking. But for work, I did it.
[00:09:50] JR: I think people can apply the message here. But I want you to say explicitly, what's the lesson you took from that experience?
[00:09:57] SD: So I used to say it was because I had good work ethic. I was a hard worker, which my dad without questioning, my mom really beat that into me growing up, not literally. They just were both examples of extremely hard workers. So they set a standard of like you do your best. You work really hard until you're too tired and you fall asleep. I used to think it was a work ethic, that is why I just had to clean the kitchen, and I just didn’t cleaned the kitchen and cleared the wood. I was literally scrubbing underneath the sink, because the kitchen, the more I opened, the more I found how dirty this place was.
It wasn't because of my strong work ethic. Although that probably started the process. It was literally because I am blessed enough to know what I want to do for a living, and God has walked with me in that journey and I loved it. I've never loved being in a kitchen in my life. But I loved every minute of it there. Even though I was just cleaning a kitchen for people that were making a movie, I had as much joy doing that as any job I've ever done even to this day. It really isn't about working. It was about I was blessed with this passion, and this love for creating this thing that I just wanted to be around it. They gave him the opportunity to do that. So cleaning the kitchen was not a selfless act. It was a pretty darn selfish one. I just love being there, and I would do anything I could to stay there.
[00:10:58] JR: It's so good. You spent most of your career focused on this discipline of visual effects. Now you're spending more and more time it seems as an executive producer on films. I think that's a black box to a lot of people. I don't think a lot of people know what an executive producer does. I'm not even sure I understand fully what an EP does. What does an EP do on a film?
[00:11:23] SD: Well, I'm not even sure what it does. So we can explore this together. I mean, as you know –
[00:11:28] JR: Well, it’s different for every EP, right? Not all executive producers do the same thing, right?
[00:11:32] SD: Exactly. Even producers too. I'm really moving into producing, but it's kind of as you get started until you start having your own properties, and you’ll start maybe as an associate producer, or a co-producer, or an executive producer. So really, it's kind of steps towards producing. I have a documentary that I produced with Chris Pratt, that'll be coming out soon. That'll be my first official producing title. But really the range of producers, no matter what the title is, there's a lot of different ways to produce. What I am hoping to be and what I'm focusing on is what I kind of call the capital P producer, the creative producer, and that's the person that originated the project.
So as an example, say you read a newspaper article about someone's life, this is really interesting. You reach out to the reporter, you get the rights to the newspaper article, and then you go hire a screenwriter, and you get a script written and then you take that script, maybe to an actor, you get an actor to sign on, then you maybe get a director to sign on. And then you bring that package to a studio or a streaming service. And you say, “Let's go make this movie.” And they say, yes. At that point, you are the – if it goes great, it's your fault. If it goes bad, it's your fault, and you are in charge of the project and hiring all the crew, and even to some extent, the marketing, and it's kind of your baby.
[00:12:36] JR: Yeah. You're basically the founder of the project, right?
[00:12:40] SD: That is a way more eloquent way to say it, yes.
[00:12:44] JR: I don't know about that, more succinct maybe. But yeah, it's such an interesting world. And again, I think it's a black box for a lot of people. So thanks for shedding a little bit of light on it. Hey, we got connected a while ago, because you were a fan of my first book, Called to Create.
[00:13:00] SD: I was a fan of your email list that you created from, before even the book.
[00:13:04] JR: You know what's funny about this, I forgot this. I was just talking to somebody else the other day, who's also a producer, doing fairly big stuff in Hollywood. I could share his name after we get off air, who has been on my email list since like day one. I don't know what it was about all you Hollywood people hopping on to my devotionals early on. But cool, like, I'm all about it. Very cool.
[00:13:30] SD: You nailed the title, Called to Create. If we’re to create, especially in Hollywood, there isn't a huge representation of Christian artists in Hollywood.
[00:13:40] JR: So what was about the content, the book, like whatever, that really struck a chord with you? I'm not asking you to pat me on the back. I'm asking you encourage our listeners.
[00:13:50] SD: Yeah, I mean, it kind of goes back to the fact that I did know at that young age that God called me to this so clearly. But when you're called to something, this strongly, especially a competitive industry like this, workaholism is a big thing. Making content that potentially you're not proud of, or morally I wouldn't want to do, and having to fight these battles, in a way where the industry itself does not care about that at all. I needed some guidance to go, “Hey, is this workaholism or am I working with God or working for God? Am I working for myself? My own ego?”
There's a lot of questions. I mean, this job does require a lot of hours, it requires a lot of focus. Your brain never really gets to shut off. And especially as a young Christian at the time in Los Angeles, and as I was kind of navigating these things, I was thirsty for some guidance in this. And honestly, your emails, as soon as I found that, I signed up and read everyone religiously. Honestly, I bookmarked a lot and saved a lot. So I have like a whole folder of your past emails. Just because it was A, I think, honestly, we're like minded. Clearly, you’re called for what you're doing and it came through your emails and it was just like, we are similar. I basically built the community with you even though you didn't know who I was, which I appreciated.
[00:15:01] JR: We're like minded because of the Wicked Witch of the West. It it both this formative experience from both of us.
[00:15:09] SD: That’s right.
[00:15:10] JR: By the way, you love Called to Create. Wait for the children's book. Do you have kids?
[00:15:14] SD: Oh, yes, I do. I just saw Luke LeFevre posted on Instagram, and I am dying to get a copy.
[00:15:21] JR: It's basically Called to Create in 387 words. It's helping kids see, number one, God creates and works. But number two, he didn't finish creation on the sixth day. He passed the baton to us, and said, “Go fill the earth.” It's funny, I was reading the second to last page to my kids last night, it says, “Create new businesses, movies, medicine and hope. Make laws or computers or a new telescope.” But then it finishes off and says, “Because when you show the creator in you, you bring joy to the world and to your father, too.” As I read that line last night, knowing this was coming up today, I was like, “Oh, Sean Devereaux, is letting people see the creator in him. He's creating new movies and hope.” I love it. I am curious to like, what does it mean to you personally, that God opens his grand narrative by creating?
[00:16:15] SD: I'm going to think. That is such a wonderful question. Honestly, that's the realization I came to through the work I get to do. And honestly, by reading Called to Create every week, I was able to shed any guilt or shame I have from the amount of work and passion I put into this. Because it is a reflection of God. I mean, God can't do what he did and not do it with passion. You don't create this beautiful world that we get to wake up in every day, or in this beautiful human body he created for us too. It's so clear, he loves us and loves this world and gave it to us as a gift, and it almost feels like God is love, especially people that are more spiritual than religious. I feel like well, I think God is creation. He creates every single day. And then he created these species of humans that goes in and create – every single one of us creates, I don’t care if you’re an accountant, you're creating every day.
So there's just this communion I have with him in that sense, and I no longer feel shame or guilt that I like to work this hard, because I love what I get to do.
[00:17:12] JR: That's awesome. It's a heck of an answer. You've worked on some really mainstream films, right? Transformers, Patriots Day. I bet, Transformers. Do you have a great Transformers story?
[00:17:24] SD: I will say that all the stories about Michael Bay are true. But I like those kinds of personalities, if you're being a jerk, for lack of a better word that I can say on your podcast, because you're passionate about getting the best possible product out there. And he does do that, despite the rough around the edges approach. He does care most importantly about the audience experience and making the best film possible. Every single person I've worked with, even with their reputations that can lean more Michael Bay-ish. I've always had a great experience because we're all at the same goal of just making the best possible movie we can, and it's really hard to do, by the way.
[00:17:59] JR: You've worked on mainstream films, Transformers, Patriots Day, Fences with Denzel. Not on a lot of films in the “Christian film industry”. Is that intentional?
[00:18:12] SD: It's intentional, not in the sense that I'm trying to avoid it because obviously, I got to work with the Erwin brothers most recently on American Underdog, and with them on Unbreakable Boy with a director named John Gunn, who I am just a tremendous fan of. But early in my career was intentional. I did do some faith-based films kind of in the middle of my career. Honestly, it's hard to say stop being sounding like a jerk myself. Until I met the Erwin brothers, there wasn't other filmmakers I knew that made what I consider faith-based films, and put the movie in front of the message.
[00:18:43] JR: Oh, yeah, I think it'd be very kind. I can be more explicit and be a little more mean here. The Christian films suck.
[00:18:49] SD: Yes, thank you. That is what I'm saying. The thing about – oh, man, because I obviously I don't want people I work with now to think that. If I'm working with you now, I don't think you suck. I think you're awesome. Caveat that.
So for me, the thing about making a movie is A, every single movie that is made is a miracle. It is so hard to get a movie made, and it's hard to make the movie once it's being made, and it's hard to finish a movie. And for me, especially when I get to work on these mainstream films, these bigger films like Transformers, and I just finished a movie called Spirited with Ryan Reynolds, and Will Ferrell for Apple. And the music was written by Justin Paul and Benj Pasek, who are great showman guys. I'm working with the best in the world at what they do.
And any Hollywood movies that I go to in the world, and I've been all over the world doing this, I get to work with the best camera person in the world, the best lighter in the world, the best makeup person in the world. And when you're surrounded by Michael Jordans, it is exciting to get up in the morning, gives you a challenge to do your best every single day, and that is an addictive feeling. Once you've tasted that, for me, to work on a film that is being sold as a faith-based film, I can't take that leap. Because as soon as you put your message in front of the quality of the film, you automatically, by default, you're compromising your vision. When you do that, you are pandering to the audience. And in my opinion, and here's where I'll get in trouble, you are not bringing glory to the kingdom by not giving your level best.
[00:20:14] JR: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. It's this issue of – and by the way, I think this applies to people making films and people making widgets in a tech startup. Any time we prioritize preaching over excellence, we do a disservice to the message, we care about preaching. I was just talking to somebody the other day, who hired a bunch of people in his business from his church, and they were the worst employees in the company. What did that do to the message that those kids in this business were preaching? It lost all of its credibility. Paul called us to work alongside outsiders to win their respect. How do we win the respect of outsiders? By doing great work.
Now, at some point, we got to share the Gospel explicitly, but we got to do great work in order to win the respect, and have the opportunity share the Gospel, right?
[00:21:09] SD: Exactly. By the way, within the industry as well, I don't meet someone on set for the first time and say, “Hey, by the way, I'm a Christian. You want to talk about Jesus?” They get to know me over the course of a movie or a course of many movies. And when they find out, I'm a Christian, they're not surprised, and they want to talk and they want to have questions. I've had amazingly deep conversations with some of the biggest people in Hollywood, sitting on set, answering questions about the Lord, talking about my faith journey, talking about their faith journey, people that I won't name because it's up to them to come out in public to talk about their faith. But there are more Christians in Hollywood than anyone knows, and they’re there to make something great and to be a part of it is huge. Being able to do work at the level I attempt to do it at every day. When people do find out I'm a Christian, the conversation doors flood open.
[00:21:56] JR: You said something in passing there, that I think is really significant. When these people find out you're a Christian, they're often not surprised. I guess a huge compliment. Why do you think they're not surprised? What is it that like, “Oh, yeah, no, that makes sense, given X, Y, and Z.”
[00:22:11] SD: So this is, like I've said, a few times now and it's really hard to make a movie. But I have so much joy in my heart for what I get to do. The hardest day I've ever had on a movie set has still been one of the happiest days of my life. There's people that have been doing it for as long, if not longer than I have. On hard days, they let you feel that they're having a hard day. I've never done that, not because I'm faking it, by the way. I have so much joy that I can do is when there's a big problem to solve, and there's 500 people on set waiting for me to say something so they can go back to work. Man, their stress is so high. But the joy I get from being able to make something with these amazingly talented artists and we do it together, it's so collaborative.
I've never had a day on set that even the most difficult where I go home wishing I did something else, and that is God given without question. I think that is why – like my positivity, I am as happy on day one of a shoot as I am on 120 of the shoot and that is a very rare thing. Most people cannot maintain that level of energy. Honestly, I couldn't do anything else in my life. I couldn't do that.
[00:23:11] JR: Yeah, joy will preach. Especially in today's day and age, joy will preach. You want people to know you are a Jesus follower. At some point, you got to say it explicitly, but you can also say it with excellence and working with joy. Part of my problem, I've written a lot about this before, my audience is probably sick of me talking about it. But part of my problem with this space of “Christian films”, and I think this applies again, outside of the film industry, is just rooted in this belief that everything we do as Christians has to be justified by some evangelistic end. Right? When all throughout Scripture, we see God commending creative work in and of itself. I think this is what you were alluding to when you're talking about Genesis one, “God created for the pure joy of creating”, right?
[00:24:03] SD: Yes. Exactly.
[00:24:03] JR: Have you read Culture Making by Andy Crouch?
[00:24:05] SD: I have not, but I'm writing it down.
[00:24:07] JR: It's a great book. I was rereading a section of it the other day, he was commenting on the fact that Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 and 22 show that there is culture in the New Jerusalem. So when heaven comes to earth, there are cultural goods there, and he says this, I love this quote. He said, “Knowing that the New Jerusalem will be furnished with the best of every culture, frees us from having to give a religious or evangelistic explanation for everything we do. We are free to simply make the best we can of the world, in concert with our forebears and our neighbors.” I just love that. I think that was spot on. If God's going to redeem culture, as we see in Isaiah 60, we're free to just go out and try to make what Isaiah and John called the glory of the nations, just make the best movie you can make. Just make the best business you can make. If you earn a chance to share the gospel, praise the Lord, take it, run with it. Look for opportunities share the gospel. But we don't have to have that religious justification. We could just create for the pure joy of doing it.
[00:25:15] SD: I love that. Honestly, being in Hollywood, too. When Christians find out, I'm in Hollywood, I get a much more negative reaction than I do from people in Hollywood finding out I'm a Christian.
[00:25:24] JR: That's interesting. Why do you think that is?
[00:25:26] SD: I do think that modern Christians by a percentage bigger than I'd like it to be, we haven't learned the log in our eye when there's a splinter in someone else's, and there's a lot of judgment and not a lot of love. But especially when it comes to big things like Hollywood that you're not necessarily directly involved with or know directly people. It's an easy enemy to set up, and to blanket statement that anything Hollywood does is evil from the devil, and it becomes this kind of fun place to attack.
The most common question I get when a Christian finds out I work in Hollywood is, how are you able to rectify that with your faith?
[00:26:06] JR: How I could not? That’s my retort.
[00:26:10] SD: I’m going to use that, actually. That's what I'm going to say, from now on, because I usually am a little speechless, depending who the person is. And then realize I don't want to waste my breath answering the question, because I'll never satisfy it to their liking anyway.
[00:26:20] JR: I'm going to go down a rabbit trail, hopefully this will be helpful to our audience. I was giving this keynote at this event a couple weeks ago, about the need for us to re embrace the Called to Create, because I think it's going to be through films that this generation of Nuns is going to see God. Seekers aren't walking into a church anymore, to learn about God for the first time. So where are they going to have the seed of the Kingdom planted in their hearts? It's going to be through film, and art and culture and businesses and whatever. It was interesting, somebody asked me afterwards, it was a seemingly disconnected question. They said, “Why do you think so many young people are leaving the church?” I was like, “Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think we love to blame liberals, for kids leaving the church. I think we'd love blaming Hollywood. I think we'd love blaming culture. But I think we have to blame ourselves, because we have boiled down the gospel to the gospel is Jesus came to save me from my sins.
So once you get to the end of the aisle and give your life to Christ, we didn't give these kids anything to do, and the thing to do is to go create culture and go create disciples. We didn't give these kids a mission. So of course, they're walking away, because they're bored. So anyways, I digress.
[00:27:37] SD: No, you're totally right. I could not agree more.
[00:27:39] JR: Hey, so you did executive produce this faith-forward film, American Underdog, starring Kurt Warner, who I hate because I'm a Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan.
[00:27:48] SD: Well, you get that one now. So it's okay.
[00:27:51] JR: But this film actually did pretty well, critically. Very rare faith-based film to do so. Why do you think critics took to the film?
[00:27:58] SD: Because it's a great movie, flat out. That's why honestly, it has to be a great movie to get positive reaction from the mostly liberal critics. Right away, faith-forward things, they're like walking in as a blank slate. A critic walks into a faith-forward film begrudgingly, excited to tear it apart. They're walking in with such a negative connotation that to get past that, and then actually have them in some cases actually praise the film, is a huge feat. I mean, if this was not a thing, so at all, I wouldn't actually even add 10 to 20 points on that Rotten Tomato scale, which is already so high. But flat out, it's a great movie, and move people in the right way. It's an amazing story. Zack and Anna did an amazing job together, and it is very relatable despite the fact that it's about an NFL superstar. The journey he took to get there is one most of us can relate to, and I think that's what Jon and Andy Erwin, the director's did a great job of putting on screen for us.
[00:28:49] JR: It's good. You spent years honing this craft 50-ish films, what are the keys to mastery in your field that are relevant, obviously, to your vocation, but likely others?
[00:29:02] SD: The biggest thing, I think that has been my success, and what I look for, honestly, in when I'm hiring people as well, and people I like working with is their ability to say, I don't know. There's so much ego wrapped up in this business, and a lot of that is self-protective, because to get to be a cinematographer, for example, who's in charge of the look of the film, to get to that level on a major Hollywood motion picture took 15 years. It's not like it happens overnight. You don't decide to be a cameraman and suddenly get to be on a movie set. It takes decades to get there.
So every person you're meeting is a master of their craft, when you meet them on set. And the difference between the people – and so already, they're great. They're among the best in the world what they do just to get there. But what makes them truly great is their ability when we're all working together to make this movie to say I don't know. The ones that can't, their career sputters out pretty quickly, even if they have a couple of – because again, they're talented, and they might have a couple great highlights. But eventually the people want to stop working with them, because they don't have the ability to let their ego go and say, “I don't know, I need help.”
[00:30:07] JR: Yeah, that's great. It's the theme – we should call this the call to humility, because that's what it takes to get massively good at what you do. It's humility. It's pretty simple. It's pretty straightforward. But I do think there are a lot of listeners that be like, “But Sean, I'm trying to get the gig. I can't say that I don't know these things.” What would you say to that person?
[00:30:29] SD: Not true. So obviously, when you're starting your career, I mean, do you want me to answer this for someone starting in the business?
[00:30:34] JR: Yeah. Sure.
[00:30:38] SD: When you're starting out, like you need to try to do everything, and I know you don't know how to do anything. So if you don't say, I don't know, at least twice in the interview, I'm not hiring you. There's no scenario where you do know. I went to four years of filmschool. So I know that I didn't know anything when I left. I mean, I learned on the job, and that's really what happens. So what I'm looking for, especially when you're coming in is that passion to clean the kitchen like I did. It is really what I’m looking for. And industry like this, it's so competitive, you owe us three years before we take you seriously. You make it past the first three years, guess what, you have a career, you're going to make great money, and you're going to do awesome. But those three years, you owe us making almost no money, working ridiculous hours, and doing a job you probably don't like that much. But if you get through that that is kind of the gap we're all looking for. And it's kind of subconscious, we don't consciously as an industry go, “Hey, give me those three years and you're in.” But that's what it takes. And the people that quit in two years, like, “I couldn't make it.” Well, you needed another year and then you’re in.
[00:31:29] JR: Yeah, it's looking for the stuff that you can't teach, which is usually, primarily grit.
[00:31:34] SD: Grit is a big one, without question. Really, it's hard for me to say. I mean, it is passion though, too. You need the grit to be able to handle the obstacles that come in your way. But it's passionate about your work. There's a joy in a competitive industry, because you have so many candidates go looking for a single position, but I would much rather take the person who's just like, again, I'll clean the kitchen for you. But I've never held the camera versus the guy who is like, here's my student reel, it's amazing. I expect to hold the camera tomorrow on set. That person, I don't want anywhere near me. Goo make your own movies. Good luck with you. Maybe I'll see in 10 years, maybe I won't probably not. Yeah, let me get the passion guy.
[00:32:06] JR: You live in this world that's characterized by placing really big financial bets on very limited information. But you have no clue which films are going to succeed and fail. How do you approach decision making in that type of environment?
[00:32:25] SD: There's really not a great answer for that. Because we really, I mean, look, right now, especially even the movies that are going to go to theaters, it ends up being a face on a thumbnail on Netflix at some point, and that's really what we look for. I mean, we need an actor that you're going to recognize that you're going to see a face on a thumbnail, scroll by as you're searching Netflix and click on it. So it's really changed from – back in the ‘50s, it was all about the movie star. Then we went away in the ‘70s, and had a lot of people like Robert De Niro was a star before he was a star, and things like that. And then the ‘80s and ‘90s came back, and the star became a bigger thing again. And now it's the most important thing. Because you need that thumbnail, you have what, half a second as it scrolls by to catch someone's attention. And actors are the best way to do that right now. So a lot of it's based on that. And then for you know, movies that are smaller, like a documentary, I just finished that there's a person that she's done – she’s accomplished some things, but overall, she's not really that well known yet, we're not going to have that ability, so we have to use other means. And that's getting people that are passionate about our story and the message behind her story, so that we can get the funding and go make a movie that is mainstream. Hopefully, it gets enough buzz from film festivals and things and then we get a thumbnail that people recognize.
[00:33:36] JR: Did you ever read the book – I'm thinking of two books right now, that I think are helpful, maybe to you, but definitely to our listeners who want to learn how to make better bets professionally. Did you read Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke?
[00:33:51] SD: Thinking in Bets? No, I didn't.
[00:33:54] JR: It's really good. And also Blockbusters.
[00:33:56] SD: I love Blockbusters.
[00:33:58] JR: It was a great book, right? So this is a book – well, you tell him what this book is about.
[00:34:04] SD: So it's really telling the story, if I'm not mistaken, it's the story of like Star Wars and Jaws and what really began the blockbuster trend. Because before, these are only movies, a movie making a billion dollars, which is what they did inflation wise, if we do the cost adjustment. There was really no movies that did that. There was movies that would stay in theaters for a few weeks, and then they'd go to TV movies, like ABC movie of the week things. There really wasn't this kind of long-running, billion-dollar box office hit until Jaws and the Star Wars of the world came out and the history of it is told well. Is that the book you're talking about?
[00:34:38] JR: I don't think it is. But I just looked up your book and it does have the same title. So the book I'm talking about is called Blockbusters: Hit-making, Risk-taking, and the Big Business of Entertainment.
[00:34:49] SD: Oh, yes. This is not what I was thinking about.
[00:34:51] JR: Yeah, it was written by this Harvard business professor named Anita Elberse. It was really brilliant. It was just talking about like, how creative enterprises may bets on content and how they think about it. But it's so good, it transcends just content. It's a great business book in general, as is Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. This is a good segue, because I was going to ask you next, which books do you personally recommend or gift to others most frequently, Sean?
[00:35:21] SD: So without question, the book I have gifted the most, and we're looking, we're going on close to 30 copies at this point, is The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. I don't believe or I wasn't able to do it, you can’t pursue a creative career or creative venture with debt hanging around your neck. You need to be debt free, so that you give yourself the freedom and flexibility to make choices based on your creative taste and not what you need to pay rent that month. So that one I cannot recommend enough. That's huge.
[00:35:54] JR: It's good.
[00:35:54] SD: My other one that I like a lot. I shared recently, actually is The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, which in a movie set, is in the kind of say hurry up and wait. So you got to hurry up to get ready, and then you're waiting around for something to happen. And then they call you and you got to hurry up again. For me, my whole life became hurry up and wait, and that's where I start to – my Bible time gets cut down to a couple of minutes a day, versus maybe the 20 minutes a day I'm hoping for. So for me, it was a great reset to kind of refocus spiritually, creatively, mentally, everything.
[00:36:25] JR: Yeah, such a good book. It's one of my all-time favorites.
[00:36:28] SD: And then I can't remember the author and I should have looked it up. Have you read Roaring Lambs?
[00:36:31] JR: I have not. But you're not the first person to recommend this to me.
[00:36:35] SD: So Roaring Lambs, I read right before I discovered Called to Create, and I think there might have been something in that book, that referred me to something that referred me to Called to Create. But it was an exceptional. A book talking about Christians and creativity, and like one of the biggest comments he makes the book that's stuck with me since then, is that, if you wanted to go see the best art in the world 200 years ago, do you know where you have to go?
[00:36:54] JR: Where?
[00:36:56] SD: Church. The best art in the world was in churches 20 years ago, and we've kind of surrendered that in a significant way, not just obviously with having art in churches, because you don't need movie theaters in churches. But culturally, we've kind of surrendered that, “Oh, we're Christian. We don't have to worry about that anymore.”
[00:37:10] JR: Yeah, not only we’re Christians creating the best art in the world, 200-ish years ago, we are also creating the greatest businesses. See the Guinness Brewing Company, right? We are also creating the best legislation. See William Wilberforce, abolishing the slave trade. We were creating hospitals in social reform. Man, do we need to rediscover this called to create culture as a means of advancing the kingdom today.
Sean, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work in the world?
[00:37:40] SD: Oh, that's such a good question, and you asked me, I should have prepped for this and I didn't. It’d be long one, but I'd love you to meet Denzel Washington and get your listeners to meet him. He is a man of extraordinary faith, and one of my favorite directors I've ever worked with. I worked with him as director on Fences and as an actor on several films, and his level of excellence is second to none. His faith, especially when you get to know him, you see what a huge part that brings into his life and how important it is to him, and it was extremely inspirational to work with him and get to hear his story on that.
[00:38:11] JR: You want to know a secret?
[00:38:12] SD: What's that?
[00:38:12] JR: Denzel is number one on my list, of who I want on this podcast.
[00:38:16] SD: That is a good goal, man.
[00:38:18] JR: You mentioned another one who's very close to the top on my list, that not a lot of people know, Justin Paul.
[00:38:26] SD: Oh, yeah, dude, he's incredible.
[00:38:27] JR: For those who don't know, Justin wrote Greatest Showman, Dear Evan Hansen.
[00:38:33] SD: Spirited, coming out, Thanksgiving 2022.
[00:38:38] JR: I love it. Dear Evan Hansen, do you know this show?
[00:38:41] SD: I love Dear Evan Hansen.
[00:38:42] JR: The song You Will Be Found, he's basically preaching Revelation 21. “All is new, all is new, is filling up the empty and all I can see, all is new, all is new.” It's like straight from Revelation 21:5. This stuff like makes it way settling as work, but in like such a perfect beautiful way. I just think he's brilliant. I think he's a genius.
[00:39:06] SD: I agree. The Greatest showman for me was a kind of one of those turning points in my life. Honestly, I decided to sell my company after seeing Greatest Showman. So, he’s an impact to me.
[00:39:16] JR: Wait, what? Why?
[00:39:18] SD: That's a longer story. So I guess for me, out of all the movies I looked at recently at that point, I read the script. I hadn't even heard the music yet. I was like, I need to do this movie. I absolutely need to do this movie, but because of my company, I couldn't do it, and then the movie came out and I got to see it with music. I was so blown away by A, the storyline. I love the entrepreneur, story being told and how his journey, but the music and the cultural impact it made, and from the beginning, and just I felt like this is going to rock the world. It's a surprise. Of course, I come out the next day and it made like almost no money at the box office. So I’m like, “What the heck? How is this happening?” So it stayed almost in the top five, for I think, the next six months because finally, everyone went to see it.
But it was such a cultural movement and the songs were – I mean, the story was good. Honestly, I think could have been a great movie without music. And then with music, the emotional reaction you get to these new ideas, I could see a liberal progressive watching this movie going, I need to go start a business and grow it and hire people. It's so empowering and honestly, a very conservative Christian kind of point of view in my opinion of like, you have to be with your family and go grow business and give other people work and look for people that maybe aren't getting chances other places and lift them up. It was just so powerful, and it was just everything I want to be doing in this world, honestly.
[00:40:35] JR: So good. I love the film. I was thinking the other day, it's become such a cultural phenomenon. The Tampa Theatre in downtown Tampa, it's this like gorgeous old historic theater. They do like Greatest Showman showings and parties like I don't know, once every other month. It's something absurd. It's going to be the next Rocky Horror picture film, right? Where people get dressed up, they come to theaters.
[00:40:57] SD: I love that.
[00:40:58] JR: And it's just as fun joyful film. Man, I love it. Alright, Sean, you're talking to an audience of Christ followers who are doing a lot of different things vocationally. We got some people in Hollywood listening. We also got a lot of entrepreneurs and marketers and parents and lawyers and whomever. What they share is number one, a commitment to Jesus, and number two, a commitment to doing great work for His glory. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?
[00:41:27] SD: So this is for people that are wavering about what they should do, and especially parents that have children, that are kind of venturing into the creative world. Don't worry about a backup plan. If they are as passionate, if they are truly passionate, and they have no second interest and they could be happy doing, don't force them into a business degree. Let them fly. I promise you, God called them to that, because you can't do it any other way, and they will make it.
[00:41:50] JR: Dang. That's a word to end on. Hey, Sean, man, I want to commend you for the exceptional work that you do for creating just great films and giving God glory in the process. And just thank you for the reminder that all of us are called to create. We are not creation optional beings, as Jen Wilkin says, we are all part of this called to create. Thanks for joining us, man.
[00:42:15] SD: Hey, man, thanks for all you do. As you know, I wouldn't be here without you. So I appreciate it.
[OUTRO]
[00:42:20] JR: Man. That was fun. Thanks for tuning in you guys. If you loved the episode, please go rate The Call to Mastery wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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