Why sports matter to God
Why viewing sports as trivial diminishes God’s sovereignty, why we’re tempted to assign priority where God does not, and how Christians should think differently about free enterprise.
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[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey friend, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as lab technicians, engravers, and retail managers? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to the one and only Scott Sonju, a crazy impressive executive in the sports industry.
Today, Scott serves as managing director of TrailRunner International. Before that, Scott spent about a decade as president and co-owner of the Frisco RoughRiders, an affiliate of Major League Baseball’s Texas Rangers, where he was named Texas Executive of the Year. Scott and I recently sat down to discuss why viewing sports is trivial or even entertainment is trivial, diminishes inadvertently the sovereignty of God.
We talked about why you and I are tempted to assign priority to things, where God does not, and how we Christians should embrace free enterprise but also reject it in a lot of ways and think differently about it because of our apprenticeship to Jesus Christ. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with my new friend, Scott Sonju.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:31.1] JR: Scott Sonju, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:34.0] SS: Thank you so much, great to be with you.
[0:01:35.5] JR: Hey, so in the introduction of this episode, I shared your crazy long, crazy impressive history in sports management. I’m curious, what was your first job in sports? Like, did this start really, really early in your career?
[0:01:48.5] SS: It did start early. My first job in sports is right out of college and I was working entry-level for the Dallas Mavericks in the kind of ticket sales and services area.
[0:01:57.7] JR: What were you doing? Literally picking up the phone and selling tickets to groups, is that what that job is?
[0:02:01.8] SS: That was part of it, it’s being proactive, making a lot of outbound calls to potential groups that would come out, as well as with potential season ticket holders, trying to renew season ticket holders, and then during the games, we have a lot of responsibilities for customer service things, visiting things, every time out. When there’s some activity going on the court, we were some of the ones organizing those types of activities. It was a great experience early on in my career.
[0:02:23.4] JR: It’s a hard job though but you loved it?
[0:02:25.6] SS: It is a hard job because there’s a high supply also of labor, limited supply of jobs and so, wages are quite compressed as you start off your career in sports and so, you just have to kind of persevere and get over the hump with it but I make great friends and in my case Jordan, it’s a little bit unique. To you all, I’ll just take a minute to share this, that my background – so my father, Norm was the founding president and general manager of the Dallas Mavericks.
And so that was the family business growing up and so when you are the boss’s son and you come to work at the club, no one really likes you at first. It’s one thing when you’re a little kid in junior high, high school, running around the stadium, you’re not a threat, and all of a sudden now, there’s some nepotism and so my intention was never to stay real long but it’s a great experience getting in there and I had to outwork everybody and earn their respect and it took a few months to do that.
I became the top salesperson during my two years there and really did win over a lot of folks who are still dear friends to this day and what I found out was that the other folks who were there, even entry-level jobs, everyone had some way that a door got opened to them then you got to perform. It might have been their father was fraternity brothers with the coach or something. You know, you got to interview some way.
So, mine was certainly not unique in that sense but it was really important then to establish your own reputation once you're in.
[0:03:33.7] JR: Yeah, I had no idea that that was your back story. That’s super-super interesting. Tell us a little bit about the work you're doing today. So, skip way ahead of the end of the story, you recently took on a new role at TrailRunner, tell us about that.
[0:03:46.3] SS: Yes, but eight months, I got started with TrailRunner International, which is a global strategic advisory firm and communications firm, works with a ton of Fortune 500 companies on things from litigation, communication, support, to position, CEO positioning, reputational issues, financial comms, all these different types of things but we had several sports clients and the thought was, we want to really build out the sports practice.
And so, I was brought on with a couple of others to have lunch, what’s called TrailRunner Sports and that was a joint venture with Legends. Legends is a major sports consulting firm that was started by the Cowboys and the Yankees, and so that’s been just a fun project as we launched in December, and really going out there. We worked with a lot of universities, all types of sports teams and leagues, helping them with a lot of trick challenges and problems.
A lot of them are communications-focused or strategy-focused, public/private partnerships, just a whole variety of areas, and sometimes, you can describe it too as when there’s a really delicate or difficult thing that comes up, a lot of times, we’re the one who will get the call.
[0:04:43.7] JR: I love it. Hey, so in your pre-interview, prior to us setting this up, I really resonate with something you were talking about. You were lamenting that man, most Christians only see what I call the instrumental value of their work, meaning, “Okay, yeah, I get it, my work matters because I can use my job in sports or business or the trades, whatever, to fund the real work of ministry.” That other people too, and admissions agencies or the local pastor, whatever.
And you were lamenting that more Christians don’t see the intrinsic value of their work. In your words, “That the work in and of itself is meaningful to God.” So, just thinking about your industry of sports, how is sports in and of itself meaningful to God from your perspective, Scott?
[0:05:29.5] SS: Sure, let me answer that, Jordan in a few different ways. One is that what I see, what we do in sports and I’m speaking from the perspective of say, an operator, of someone who is running a sports team, is that you’re creating an opportunity to bring people together. You're creating these events, you’re throwing these, you know, in baseball, minor league baseball, 70 parties a year, essentially.
For folks to come out and fan base to come out, businesses to come out and you're creating these unique opportunities that people can rally around and be together. You’re creating memories for families who come out to your games. You’re providing opportunities for folks to earn a living. It’s a higher profile industry than most and so it gives you a platform, an ability to really serve the local community.
It would be very involved and civic things and the local non-profits and churches, ministries, all these different things in that community, all those different stakeholders and sports team has a chance to really make a difference and an impact in all those ways there. Then it’s just the nature of running a business or any business. You know, with the Minor League Baseball team I ran, we had 55 full-time year-round employees.
That’s excluding the players that they were all contracted to the major league club and so, I looked at it, I have 55 people to love on, to build into, to help them succeed professionally and personally.
[0:06:38.4] JR: To pastor, in a way.
[0:06:39.8] SS: To pastor, to minister, and it’s not that it was all Christians who worked there, there were several Christians but it was not a majority, certainly, and that wasn’t a requirement. I was trying to find the best folks I could for these things and then really try to build into them whether they’re and sometimes, there are opportunities as you build a relationship with folks that you may have a chance to go into the personal plan of salvation part of the gospel.
But I always define the gospel more broadly. So many Christians have a truncated view of the gospel where it’s just the personal plan of salvation, where the gospel has ramifications for all of life, all of our decisions for our culture, and the culture-building we’re supposed to be doing and whatnot. So, I think in any industry, it can lend itself to these things and bring glory to God but sports I think, does some unique things because of its chance for a high impact.
[0:07:23.9] JR: Yeah, it’s so good, and I’m so glad you brought up what I call the abridged gospel, this idea that the gospel is just good news for my soul. This is like, “No, like, Jesus is king of all.” You actually said something in this in an exchange we had before, you said, “If God is sovereign over all, then therefore, all things would be meaningful and have meaning within them.” And I thought that was so well said because I think that’s what’s at stake.
When we say that, “Oh, spiritual things like evangelism and prayer matter to God but not earthly things like playing sports and writing novels, right?” I think it’s an inadvertent attack on God’s sovereignty to say that He only cares about souls. Does that make any sense to you?
[0:08:08.1] SS: It makes a lot of sense, it’s something I’ve certainly heard a lot over the years, it’s something that I brought into many-many years ago.
[0:08:12.7] JR: Yeah, me too.
[0:08:13.2] SS: As time went on and so, folks challenged me on some of that truncated thinking there because it sounds so spiritual that you got to be, evangelism, missions, those are the things that matter, and they do matter but that’s not all of the things that do matter. God made the material world. Jesus incarnate, that means there is a meaning to physicality, there’s a meaning to the material world with that.
[0:08:34.8] JR: To the baseball diamond.
[0:08:36.5] SS: Yes. It’s not just that God’s – you know, that we’re questioning inadvertently His sovereignty if we’re trying to say only these certain things matter. We’re also telling God how to prioritize. God gave Adam work to do before the fall. He was tasked with, you know, naming animals, tasked with working at the garden and cultivating and whatnot. Jesus, you know, was trained.
He was a carpenter and I bet He took it pretty seriously when he was focused on that part of his life and that, for us to say that only certain things matter when that’s not what scripture says at all, that we don’t need to kind of prioritizing for God, what we think should be the top things. God did prioritize a force in general, is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Well, how do you love your neighbor? By serving them and a lot of times, that’s by serving your neighbor through the marketplace.
[0:09:23.7] JR: Why do you think we love to assign priority to things God never does?
[0:09:28.4] SS: Boy, that’s a good question.
[0:09:29.1] JR: Because we’re obsessed with it. Like, I see it everywhere. I don't know why we do this, I don’t have an answer by the way.
[0:09:34.6] SS: Yeah, I was about to turn it back on to you, that’s where you – that’s the public speaking 101 and when you asked a question you’re not quite sure, you –
[0:09:39.8] JR: That’s right. You know, that’s right, you turn.
[0:09:41.9] SS: So, you turn it. Well, what do you think?
[0:09:43.8] JR: I’ll take a stab.
[0:09:44.2] SS: What’s your thought?
[0:09:45.4] JR: I don't know, I’ve been noodling on this a little bit. I just think we’re all Pharisees at heart. Like, we want everything to be black and white because if everything is black and white, then there is no need for me to commune with the Father and ask about the gray. Does that make sense, right? Like, if I have a list of priorities and I know exactly what to do, I have no need to go to my Heavenly Father and ask for wisdom, right?
Because I got my checklist, like, I can just go do that thing and I think what our Father wants most is to be with us, and part of what draws us to Him and to being with Him is that lack of uncertainty about priorities, is that that existence of gray matter, if you will, when things aren’t black and white in terms of priorities and hierarchy. Am I making any sense at all? I don't know, I’m just talking out loud for the first time.
[0:10:31.7] SS: I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that you know, we want a lot of clarity on certain things because then less faith is required there and there are some things that are clear but there are other things that are not clear that we need to pray for discernment and that God would impress on us at growing peace of growing at rest, to getting feedback from other folks and whatnot.
I think part of also on this prioritizing, at one level, sure, there are things in your life you have to prioritize. You know, there and there are general priorities in life and that’s normal and whatnot but sometimes, I think we get in the place of – we also like to – we like to be God a little bit and kind of how – if I were God, how I’d rule the world. When I was younger, I used to think that I’d be a pretty good God. As I got older, I realized I’d be awful.
[0:11:10.7] JR: That’s good.
[0:11:11.8] SS: So, when you let God be God there, and not make things into absolutes that He has not made in the absolutes.
[0:11:18.2] JR: That’s good. Yeah, and because there’s no real priority of spiritual material because Jesus is King of heaven and King of earth, then as you said, my work with the earth, building a rugby field or repairing a truck or writing a novel, must matter in it of itself. A while back, we had NFL veteran Sam Acho on the podcast.
[0:11:39.3] SS: I know Sam, yup.
[0:11:39.9] JR: Yeah, I love Sam. Oh, yeah, he’s in Texas with you, yeah, and I loved his answer to the question of like, “Why do sports matters to God?” He essentially said, “Hey, my work in sports matters to God because I matter to God.”
[0:11:50.8] SS: Well said. I think that’s very, very true.
[0:11:53.7] JR: Yeah. Hey, I’m curious, have you ever get push-back? Do you ever get push-back from believers who say, “All right Scott, fine, your work in sports matters but man, if you really love Jesus, go back to priorities.” Man, you wouldn’t be doing – you wouldn’t be using your considerable management skills in sports, right? You would do something more important, more useful with those skills.
You’d go work in an NGO or I don't know, nonprofit, not necessarily ministry but in a nonprofit working to solve one of the greatest challenges of our time. Have you heard pushback like this? And I’m curious, if you have or even if you haven’t, just imagine somebody telling you that, how would you respond to that push-back that says, “Well, sports is relatively useless, so why waste our time?”
[0:12:32.3] SS: Sure, well, I certainly don’t have to imagine it and –
[0:12:36.1] JR: Sadly.
[0:12:36.4] SS: I’ve had those conversations and I’ve been on the wrong side of those types of assumptions back in the early 20s. I remember with conversations with other folks kind of, “You know if you really love Jesus, as you come out of college, you’re going to go on staff with the crew. You know, you were going to do this or that.” I cringe a little bit of my thinking on those things.
And so, I think the response I would have is severalfold and that one, I would say, you know, there’s a misperception too by the way that say, a nonprofit is better than a – or purer than a for-profit entity. I would say that you know, it’s free market and profit incentives is what solves so many more issues and problems and alleviate so much pain for so many folks around the world. It’s interesting, I was talking to a philanthropist, a Christian Philanthropist, who gave a lot of money in Africa for a certain nonprofit, under nonprofit for certain functions to take place.
He went and visited a year or two later and the way it was deployed and the inefficiencies and just how poorly it was executed, he made the decision then that he would never give money to another – in his case, he’s not going to give money to another nonprofit doing poverty relief work, essentially and that he went to fund a for-profit entities for that because they were so much – the incentives are different and it just was much more effective with that.
But also, when it comes to that sentiment there that if you really love Jesus, you know, you’ll use your skills for building the kingdom, well, let’s define what that is because I agree, is the kingdom, the gospel, the kingdom, that’s what Jesus keeps saying. We don’t hear about the gospel so much as the gospel of the kingdom.
[0:14:00.0] JR: Not the gospel of individual salvation.
[0:14:02.1] SS: Exactly. That’s a part of getting people into the kingdom, that’s a part of it, is the personal plan of salvation but the gospel of the kingdom is much more encompassing than that. But you look at you know, I Corinthians 10:31, “Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.” Colossians 3:23, “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord not for human masters, it is the Lord Christ you are serving.”
You look at how God has used folks in scripture like Joseph in the Old Testament there, at Pharoah court, and how God used him to preserve Israel essentially. You have Daniel survive Nebuchadnezzar in the role that he played. David was a politician, you know, he was a king, administrator, all these things. You look at all – in Hebrews and the hall of faith and the function of so many different people were not full-time vocational ministry there.
I just don’t love that expression per se and that I think we’re all called to be Christians all the time and to love the Lord, love others, and serve him in different ways. I think I haven’t had a chance, Jordan, to read your latest book and the title I thought was interesting and I’m curious and I’m assuming you would agree with a lot of this but I don’t see in scripture a secular sacred divide there.
[0:15:04.3] JR: That’s right.
[0:15:04.7] SS: That way I think it was Sibiu’s, one of the early church fathers who I think was wrong on that. That so many of us have been raised, you know, with that thinking whereas, “No-no-no, everything is sacred because everything’s under the hand of God.” God is sovereign over all, He owns all things, including us. Therefore, everything’s going to be wrought with meaning as we serve Him.
[0:15:23.5] JR: That’s exactly right. That’s spot on. It is what makes the work sacred is not what we do but who we do it with and who is empowering us as we do the work and because Christ is sovereign overall, in the words of Charles Burgin, nothing is sacred, nothing is secular, sorry, everything is sacred that we’re working with.
All right. So, hey Scott, we’ve been talking about how your faith shapes what you’re doing day in, and day out vocationally. Let’s talk about how your faith is shaping how you do what you do vocationally. In your pre-interview, you said, “One of the things that should be different about how Christians approach work is seeing a redemptive nature to it.” I wholeheartedly agree. I think all Christ's followers are called to partner with Jesus in the renewal of all things.
But in order to do that, right? Before you can even discuss strategies for renewal, we first got to get clarity on what the heck is broken in our particular industries in need of redemption or renewal. So, as you look at your industry of sports, right? What do you perceive to be broken in that world? What’s in need of redemption and renewal in the world of athletics and sports?
[0:16:32.5] SS: Sure. Well, let me start that answer with a very overarching answer and that’s easy, what’s broken in the world of sports? People. What’s in need of redemption and renewal? People.
[0:16:42.6] JR: It’s me. Hi, I’m the problem, it’s me.
[0:16:44.9] SS: Yeah, it’s like G. K. Chesterton, what was wrong with the world as he sends his response in, you know, “I am, sincerely G. K. Chesterton.” But it’s people because people are fallen and therefore, whether it’s sports or any industry, of course, that would be the answer there but we’re getting into more specifics on it. As far as things that are broken in the sports world, sports industry, things in need of redemption and renewal.
You know, 60 or 70 years, there was a glaring one that was a lot easier to answer in the US. You know, and that was certainly the segregation in sports there, it had no biblical basis and it was evil and it was brave folks who stopped that, you know, including Jackie Robinson, Branch Rickey. Branch Rickey was a very developed Methodist and part of his worldview was driving that as he integrated baseball.
Today, I would say, one of the issues which is a political hot button of course, is that we’re watching our culture and a lot of different types of sports at different levels of sports, allowing confused males to dominate women’s sports, to compete against women. You know, and like, at some point, where are the men going to stand up and say, “No-no-no-no, you're not going to be competing. It’s my daughter on this” and taking scholarships away from young women and these different things.
And to me and the majority of people see this and realize this is crazytown but the cultural elites and the dominant voices are not necessarily there and the HR departments of every major company, they’re all, askew a certain way there. The people are scared to speak up and I’ll be curious if that pendulum swings back as time goes on. Certainly, the sports industry can lend itself to some level of idolatry there and things that need to be, whether it’s hero worship or just how we put certain folks on pedestals and ways that aren’t healthy for them.
But that actually that does it, you know, for them and greed, we can say, that’s a human heart issue, that can be in any industry. I would say, something that was not uncommon in the sports industry is not as common today and I think a lot of places are doing much better is that it was kind of on the business side of it, kind of the good old boys network. There were some level of sexual harassment, sexual impropriety.
It’s just crassness, just different things that were allowed and not very professional at certain teams and all of it goes to the leadership of a certain business of being allowed or not on what do they model and whatnot there and so now, there’s some structural and problematic things in college sports and there’s a lot of other items that I think about a bit more on theological implications of those things.
But in a nutshell, what’s broken in the industry, it’s people, it’s relationships, and as Christians, you know, we are to be after the renewal of all things. God is making all things new and we should have a redemptive mindset as we go into our responsibilities.
[0:19:13.3] JR: That’s really good. Man, we could go deep on all those but I want to select one of these things that I thought is interesting and probably a pretty good case study for our listeners. Let’s go to the issue of idolatry and hear our worship in sports. This is super interesting, right? Because, on the one hand, let’s take your previous role as president and co-general partner of the Frisco RoughRiders, this minor-league baseball team.
In some ways, you want to lean into your stars, right? They are a marketing asset, to be crass, right? There were much more in that, they’re people, right? But how have you thought historically, like, go back to that time, how did you think about, “Okay, how do we market these people and not lead people in the temptation of idolizing these players?” Have you thought about that historically?
[0:19:57.9] SS: Yeah, or the temptation of emboldening the players to idolize themselves.
[0:20:01.0] JR: Yeah, exactly.
[0:20:01.5] SS: You know, there’s both things going out there because you know, when you’re a great athlete, our culture celebrates that and so some of these folks since 8th grade have been kind of hero-worshiped in a sense or have been, received so much praise and adulation beyond what they are just because of the skillset and so, a couple of things to that note. One, I’m taking a little easy way out.
So, at the minor league baseball side, you know, a lot of the athletes are not household names yet. They’re trying to make it and a handful of them will make it.
[0:20:28.2] JR: Much easier in the minor league baseball, got it.
[0:20:30.2] SS: It’s much easier. There’s a lot more temptation there and so like, for us, marketing our club, a lot of our emphasis was marketing our – like our mascot. You know, it is the things that no one’s going to treat that in an idolatrous way but it’s fun. It’s family and you know, your players don’t stay with you for long. If they’re real good, they’re going to get promoted into the Major League Club and stuff and so we want more continuity with that.
But you know, with I think in general, if I was running or if I was running a team at a higher level with much higher profile athletes, there are ways of how you present them, how you do your communications, your marketing, whatnot, that’s celebrating the athletic exploits without deifying a person, you know, and just the language you use or how you position things. I think that can be appropriate and clubs too.
You know, there are ministries to athletes there that like in baseball, baseball chapels, and ministries has been around for decades. Every team has a chaplain, it’s voluntary, of course, the players wouldn’t be involved with it and those are some of the topics and issues that might come up sometimes to challenge folks on these things because fame and money have a way of corrupting there.
And a lot of times, you’d think, “Gosh, I would just handle that so much better.” And I’m like, “Would I? Would I really if I had all that.” I don’t want that temptation. There’s things they faced that you know, you got to extend grace to folks because there’s challenges and temptations they’re faced that we don’t relate to exactly but I don't know if I’m giving you a great answer in that that I’ve had and probably direct experience on that particular one.
Let me, I guess, answer it this way as well. It’s not just, say, it’s sports and athletes and that type of thing. I read Counterfeit Gods by Tim Keller. I’m not sure if you’ve read that. It rocked my world just seeing how good things, when we make them into ultimate things become idols, even though they’re good in it of themselves. Meaning, how my kids would turn out, my marriage, my family? I can be idolatrous in this.
I’ve never thought of that until I read that book and as I was going through that book, realizing every chapter, I felt convicted and thinking, “Oh my goodness, I guess that’s right and my heart is an idol factory.” And so, I don’t want to point the finger too much. It’s certain types of more glaring things when I realize all of us have such capacity to get caught up in idols.
[0:22:29.4] JR: Have you struggled with – we talked so much on this podcast, right? About work being a good thing. Have you struggled with turning it into a godlike thing, an idolatrous thing? And if so, what’s kept you on the right side of that divide?
[0:22:40.5] SS: Yeah, you know, it’s tricky to answer that because it sounds like someone’s saying, “Well, let me tell you how humble I am.”
[0:22:44.9] JR: Yeah, yeah, you’re right, exactly.
[0:22:46.4] SS: I think I’ve generally done – personally, you know, fairly well on that and I think part of it is being very crowded and I had a great model, my father and my parents the way, you know, they’re taught us to think biblically on these things and it holds your career or lose it because it’s in God’s hands. You want to be faithful but you may or may not be a bit cramped with success and viewed by others, you know, they’re.
And so, you hold that loosely and say, “Am I being faithful? Am I serving God correctly? Am I loving people correctly? Am I being faithful to my employer, to our team, to our stakeholders, our fans?” all these different types of things. I think it’s helpful too is having accountability, not just being involved in a, you know, local church body and those things but I do have other professionals in my industry who are believers, who I talk to regularly.
You know, it’s a great encouragement we could be to each other and kind of keep tabs on each other and I also have some dear friends, who are from college. We get together every year for a three-day, going through life, kind of you know, weekend type thing, and we talk every quarter on the phone because we’re all scattered throughout the country and we’ve done this since college, all really solid believers.
I’m the only one who is in the sports industry but it’s that type of people who are going through life with you, who know you well, who don’t mind calling you out or challenging you, asking you something you need, people in your life to do that and having a great wife, a wife who she can certainly help me come back to reality if I start getting too big. There are times I’ve been really excited about certain things and she’s like, “Scott, you have dollar signs in your eyes.”
“You know, stop.” And it’s just helpful to hear that. I don’t think it’s necessarily think it’s helpful at the exact moment, right? But I just say it is helpful. I don’t like it, you know, necessarily when you are being challenged or convicted on something and then as you reflect and the Spirit works in your heart, you realize, “Yeah, this is starting to become too much of a focus” or too much of a budding idol and I need to nip this.
[0:24:27.4] JR: Yeah, it’s really good. That’s really good. Hey, so you mentioned something else in your pre-interview I thought was really interesting. You talked to, you mentioned it kind of in passing, you breezed right past it. You said that the idea free enterprise and free markets is a very Christian idea. Now, we just talked about the temptation to turn money into an idol and greed of course, there’s temptations with everything.
But how from your perspective, this idea of free enterprise and what you’re building with these sports teams, how is that a very Christian idea? Explain that.
[0:24:54.5] SS: Sure. As I understand the scripture, let’s start high level here but when it comes to the, you know, one of the big 10, the eighth commandment, “Thou shall not steal.” Well, that presupposes, there is such a thing as private property, and so right from the get-go that rules out strict socialism or communism, everything is state-owned because the Bible recognizes private property otherwise, there’d be no prevention against stealing.
You know, the 10th commandment is all about not coveting your neighbors this, that, and the other. Well, socialism is built on envying other people’s stuff and so I think that’s not a healthy direction to go with this and by the way, there are well-meaning Christians who disagree in some of the things I’m going to say and I think it’s because they don’t understand. I think the scriptures, human nature, and how the world actually works that God made.
And because they’re getting caught up in the rhetoric of certain things that sound so good but you have to see what is the reality of what the economic system has. So, private property is recognized in the scripture, and with free markets, and free enterprise, all that means, it’s recognition of property rights and the freedom to trade with other people and we want people to be free to enter into voluntary exchanges with other folks.
No one enters into a voluntary exchange unless they’re going to be better off after that exchange. They won’t transact unless both parties are better off and that we want there to be freedom for people to be able to live their lives and earn a living and those things within you know, certainly within non-sinful ways, and that yeah, I’d go a step further too. I’ve heard it said that we’re commanded of course in a few places in the scripture.
But Mathew 7:12, we’re commanded to do unto others and we have them do unto us. Well, I want to have the freedom to be able to make voluntary economic decisions and decisions in the marketplace and how to utilize my time, my labor, how I want to deploy it. I want other people there for them to have that freedom as well and when a third party comes in, a regulatory environment, a state, or whatnot to diminish my freedom.
Or someone else’s freedom for those things that say that that is not consistent with what you know, the scripture has taught us. Israel, as a nation, God’s chosen nation at that time, it received its civil law directly from God through Moses and we find that the law, it left us, the citizens of Israel there free to sell and buy and sell as they wished and that was also understated, underscored again in the New Testament.
Nowhere are we told not to do that. In fact, we’re told in Proverbs two that it’s better, you’re blessed as the person who sells the grain than the one who hordes it and you go through all these different scriptures and you look also at Jesus’ parables. In majority, I think it has been said almost two-thirds of his parables are in a marketplace context or setting.
[0:27:19.6] JR: Yeah, that’s about right.
[0:27:20.7] SS: And so when you have that much emphasis that Jesus gives at marketplace settings, the private property aspect and you look for all the different proverbs and all these different things about how to treat people, how to do things, how to buy and sell, what’s appropriate, it screams to me free enterprise, free markets, and let me say this to you, some people will say, “Well, capitalism is built on greed.” You know, and I’d say, well, the human heart is greedy. That is a sin, temptation.
[0:27:46.0] JR: Every systemic structure is greedy.
[0:27:48.1] SS: Exactly.
[0:27:48.5] JR: Yeah, and exploited of, yeah.
[0:27:50.0] SS: Moving that greedy heart under a socialist system does not remove the greed, it just makes it now words easier to exploit, where certain folks really exploit others, and that what does capitalism do? For you to meet your needs, you have to meet the needs of others. When you have the rule of law, you have to have a rule of law, which is the Bible teaches you, you need to have a rule of law.
Private property, to meet your needs, you meet the needs of others. You can be as greedy as you want but if you want to be able to buy that car, that house, well, you’d better provide a good or a service that’s attractive enough for someone else to voluntarily part with their money for that good or service so then you’re better off they’re better off, you’re meeting their needs so you can meet your own needs.
So, capitalism, free enterprise, it harnesses self-interest, or it harnesses greed for good and self-interest does not mean selfishness by the way. It is self-interest, you comb your hair and brush your teeth. You know, that’s not wrong. That’s –
[0:28:36.5] JR: That’s not selfish, right.
[0:28:37.9] SS: It’s not selfish.
[0:28:38.8] JR: This is super good but I do think it’s interesting like you also told me before that Christians should approach this topic with a bit of nuance that’s distinct from our non-Christian counterparts in the free markets, what’s that nuanced in your opinion? Like talk about your own experience have you thought about free enterprise? Do you think differently because of your apprenticeship to Jesus?
[0:29:01.4] SS: Sure. I think where this comes out is in priorities in the sense of the chief end of commerce, the chief end of free enterprise is not profit. Milton Friedman was asked that question, you know, the famous Chicago economist there, that he’s a libertarian, what’s the main purpose of a business, and it’s to make a return the profit to its shareholders. That’s a purpose for a Christian, it is not the purpose.
So, having your focus on people changes things a little bit, and the people in marketing imago dei and made an image of God, therefore, on your employees, your customers, your suppliers, vendors, all these things, you have to be looking at these are people made in the image of God. How do I serve them? How do I love them? That means being honest, it means being fair.
It means instead of trying to pay your employees as little as possible and keep them, which would be an economic trying to maximize profit motive, you think, “How can I pay as much as I can in a way that still protects the enterprise and our growing concern and is fair to shareholders and helps us attract and retain great people?” You know, you even look at – you might look differently at folks.
We’re making decisions on if you have to let someone go, that’s a very much an important part of business, how do you treat them with dignity and give them a soft landing. How do you help them transition onto another opportunity? Those things, and so when I say a little bit of nuance, I agree with so much with a lot of, say, libertarian economists. I love reading a lot of Thomas Saul, I’ve learned a lot.
But if it is lacking at some of those is a Christian understanding that its people are the priority and we love God by loving others and serving them and I think that is going to affect us a little bit differently on how we make decisions and how we weigh things and that sometimes, it will be an economic cost or consequence that as a Christian, I may need to absorb because it’s the right thing to do to be of help to the other person.
But you also have to weigh the needs of all the other people who are counting on you. If you are the boss or you own a company and that you can’t be irresponsible, where you end up going into bankruptcy or having to layoff a lot of people because of being not as thought through and how you’re trying to help other folks and so there’s constant tension of having to weigh all those things but if I had to sum it up that the new lines have it say is that yes, the scripture teaches on buying and selling private property freedom to interact but also, how do we serve and think of the other.
[0:31:11.7] JR: Yeah, and have a posture towards blessing the other. My friends at Praxis, this great accelerator for Christian-led for-profit and nonprofit ventures has a really, really simple but really helpful framework I think of about a lot. They call it the redemptive frame, where you’ve got three types of businesses, right? You have the exploitative business, right? That’s just trying to take.
You have the ethical business that is doing things by the letter of the law, right? But then you have the redemptive business that is going beyond that ethical edge. It is really pushing towards the redemptive and not just saying, “Okay, how do I get by with adherence to the law and the letter of the law but how do I proactively seek to bless those around me?” You talked about pay as an example of that.
In what other ways do you see your role as a business leader being able to proactively bless people? What shape has that taken for you and your history and business in the sports industry, Scott?
[0:32:13.4] SS: Sure. Jordan, I say this as someone who is certainly has done this imperfectly over the years but one of the ways I try to approach things, it is seeing, seeing the people that God has put in my life, seeing the folks who are, say, on our team, people working for – they are working in my business. Seeing them as an end in it of themselves. They’re not a means to an end, they are an end because they’re made in the imago dei.
[0:32:35.9] JR: I hate that I cannot – I don’t think I’ve ever said this here. Can I just say, I am growing increasingly hateful of the term human resources? They’re not resources, people are not resources. They are people, they’re image first and that’s what you’re saying.
[0:32:51.3] SS: Exactly, and so with that, it’s making sure you want them to be able to give them the tools and coaching and resources to be successful and then helping when they’re struggling. How do you provide coaching? How do you help them overcome things? How do you – I have always been at small businesses, Jordan, where you really get to know folks and you get to know people’s – seeing to view other’s spouses, kids, and we’re trying to be thoughtful on things too.
One of the things we did for example, when I was running the RoughRiders is I’d find out everyone because we had people, staff from all over you know, the country, who are their favorite teams were. I had one guy from Boston, he was a huge Boston Celtics fan and so when the Celtics came through to play the Mavericks, I called in a favor from a friend of mine at the Mavericks and I got a couple of seats and I went by this guy’s desk and I just put it on his desk.
You know, this was before everything went to digital tickets of course, and just said, “Hey, this Saturday I thought you might enjoy going to see the Celtics play the Mavericks.” It’s little things like that that are thoughtful that really show people that you care and that you’re for them and you earn trust with people as well. So, I mentioned the example of trying to do, you know, compensate people well.
But it is also trying to give them pathways to get more experience to help them cultivate their gifts and when they outgrow what you can do for them, helping them get their next opportunity. I’ve made many reference calls, I’ve done many things to help people get that next job, the next opportunity when they’re ready to leave us, you know? So, I think that is part of looking at that person wholistically and it’s working with folks.
Kind of in a sense, weeping with those who weep, as people go through tough things in life and people do exciting things. We have people going through because of the ages they’re with us, they might be getting engaged, marriage, first child, buying their first house, I have negotiated different car loans with my staff. So, I am helping them do this or helping – because so many are young staff in parental locus, however you say that, I was kind of a father figure for them trying to be of help for folks.
So, I think as Christians, the people under your charge were told in the scripture to always understand the condition of your flock. Understand what people are going through, where they’re at, how are they handling stress, making sure they’re taking vacation days, modeling things for them correctly. Part of how you are disciplining that or disciplining them and loving them is disciplining.
It is having to confront things when behavior is not good. Now, there’s a tendency you see sometimes, you see that everywhere, you see it in ministry sometimes too. With Christians, I think it’s that it is not Christian to have to confront someone or throw them out or whatever it is or let someone go and you can do those things with dignity and respect that sometimes, that is the most Christian thing to do.
That someone needs a wake-up call, sometimes, it says in Proverbs, sometimes mere words are not enough. Discipline is needed and that’s the most loving thing to do. To withhold that is an act of – not an act of Christian charity. I think it is an act of hatred is what says in Proverbs.
[0:35:30.2] JR: Yeah, that is open rebuke than hidden love. Hey, one more question before we get to the final three we wrap up every episode with, you mentioned this word a few minutes ago, faithfulness I’ve been journaling about a lot lately. In this context, right? You are in a super competitive industry. I mean, you’re in sports everything is about winning, right? This is about winning the game, winning the championship, and being the best.
And man, I got to imagine it’s a struggle for you to not let that thinking seep into your own psyche as you are managing your own personal workload and I just don’t see a lot of evidence, I don’t see any evidence in the scripture that God commands us to be the best, right? You look at the parable of the talents. He didn’t tell the five-talent servant to win. He told the five-talent servant to be faithful, right?
To be a faithful steward of what God – it’s why the five-talent or the two-talent servant get the same exact blessing, right? At the end of the say, the five-talent servant was clearly the “winner by the world’s standards.” He had the most toys but the five and the two-talent guy got the same blessing because God’s definition of success I think is not about winning but about faithful stewardship with what He’s put in our hands, right?
So, as like as you think about your own craft, how do you maintain that perspective, assuming you agree with that perspective, that you’re called to be faithful, right? And trust the fruit to God. How do you maintain that perspective in an industry that’s so obsessed with winning?
[0:36:59.0] SS: First of all, Jordan, completely agree with you that it’s faithfulness that God calls us to. Whatever He’s entrusted us with, we need to be faithful with it and that we want to be the servant who hears, you know, “Well done good and faithful servant.” And if He’s entrusted us with five and gives us five more, He gives us one, He gives us two, you don’t want to be the one who buries the talent.
We don’t want to be the one who didn’t put it out there. Faithfulness is the criteria, not worldly success. Now oftentimes, when people are faithful and they live Christianly and they apply the proverbs, the general truths of proverbs to how they live their lives, how they run their business, how they make decisions on balance, oftentimes as folks will do well economically and whatnot but it is not automatic.
It is not, “If you do this, then this for sure.” These are general patterns of the world God made but you might be very faithful and God frustrates your plans for different reasons for part of someone’s growth that we don’t understand and that is a question to ask Him in heaven but you can take – the way I always tell our staff too, when we get really – when there is pressured stress on say, on the business side.
If we are not driving the revenues that we need for the business or different things if I know we’re doing the correct inputs and we’re working hard and we’re being wise on how we do this, we’re treating folks correctly, I can sleep at night. It’s when I’m not, if our company is not, a person not doing the correct inputs, not putting in the actual work effort that’s needed, not planting when it’s time to plant, all those things, well then, it’s more stressful.
It’s more difficult to sleep. You know, you can’t expect God to start to bless that if we’re not putting in the correct inputs and so – and in sports too because it’s high profile and you have folks, for example, who I’ve had people who worked for me, I was able to build them too, help them get launched, and then go on to some really kind of neat careers and things that would be “bigger jobs” than what I have chosen to do with their path I have done.
And it is easy if I focus on that to kind of, I don’t know, to get kind of immature thought patterns of should I’ve gone that direction or, “I’m sharper than that person, why am I not in that high profile thing?” And that’s not healthy, you know, not healthy thinking. I need to repent of those, confess those things happened and I have some friends, they use this word a lot too. They’ve kind of challenging me, Jordan, and we challenge each other that it’s faithfulness.
That’s what we’re after, it’s let’s be faithful to where God has us, bloom over planted, and then you know, God can bless us in certain ways however He sees fit but I kind of think of, I was reading this the other day here but when you have Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when King Nebuchadnezzar is quite upset that they won’t bow to the idol he made, he tells them that, they’re going to be –
He gives them another chance, which was unusual. So, he says, “When the music plays, you want to bow now. We’ll let it go.” And they won’t and he said, “We’re throwing you in the fiery furnace.” And the response is, “Our God can save us but even if He doesn’t, we’re not going to bow to your idol.” I love that. I want to be faithful, my God can prosper my hand. He can prosper the business.
But whether He does or doesn’t, I’m going to be faithful because, in His own wisdom, it could be that things are very difficult. I don’t understand why, maybe some of this will make sense as time goes on, some of them won’t make sense until we get to do find out in the next side of eternity, at which point it won’t matter. We won’t care, we’ll be so happy, you know, basking in His glory but faithfulness is what we need to do.
[0:40:08.1] JR: Yeah, it’s so good. Hey Scott, three questions we wrap up every show with. Number one, which books do you find yourself gifting most frequently to others?
[0:40:16.7] SS: You know, in different areas of my life it’s probably been different ones but let me tell you something, the most common ones, one is Fault Lines by Voddie Baucham, which is just outstanding, just as far as the culture that we live in today and the tendency towards focusing just getting caught up in something. A lot of Christians getting caught up in so many woke things and CRT things and stuff that maybe seems okay on the surface or that sounds correct.
But they don’t really understand what these things are and what the Bible says about these things. I think this book is really, really good on that, Fault Lines. The Tech-Wise Family, which is Andy Crouch, I mean I thought was outstanding. I had my kids as they got to be, you know, teenagers, read that as well. I don’t necessarily agree with everything in it but it swung the pendulum for me to be much more thoughtful in our use of technology and whatnot.
Money, Greed, and God by Jay Richards, I thought that was really, really good. It’s a defense of free markets essentially from a theological standpoint but also practical. I give a lot of people, The Prodigal God by Tim Keller. That helped me see that I was the elder brother and really legalistic for a lot of my life and I thought that was a great book and then on the topic we’re talking about earlier too.
Folks who want to understand economics from a Christian perspective, I have them just go with Christian Economics in One Lesson by Gary North, which is a take on economics in one lesson, Henry Hazlitt's book in the 1940s, which is great but this is putting a Christian perspective, understanding these things and how the world works. I love books but those are probably some of the ones towards the top of my list.
[0:41:40.9] JR: It’s really good. I like that, it’s a cool list.
[0:41:43.0] SS: Oh, and of course, and anything by Jordan Raynor.
[0:41:45.5] JR: No, stop, stop, this is the risk of asking this question. I’m like, “No-no-no-no, this is not an obligatory answer.” Hey, Scott, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work they’re doing in the world?
[0:41:56.9] SS: As I thought about that, Jordan, I’m actually going to mention three names I think it will be really interesting, friends of mine. One is Jack Hollis, who is the president of Toyota Motor Sales and he is based here in the Dallas area. He’s just a solid believer, so joyful. He’s got a, you know, big-time job at Toyota. He’ll probably be the next CEO for North America and he really integrates his faith with how he lives his life and how he runs the area he’s responsible. So, Jack Hollis I think would be really good.
Another friend, Baxter Underwood. He is the CEO of Safe Harbor Marinas and he’s a venture capitalist. He’s invested in a lot of things, just a fast-standing person. He is based in Dallas as well. I was with him recently, just as we were talking about some of these things, and just how you integrate your walk with Christ with how you run your enterprise and I think he’s very thought-free on that and would be an interesting person.
Kent Lugrand would be another one, the CEO of Intouch Credit Union, which is headquartered here and actually, playing now with the Dallas suburb. Kent, he is one of my investors in the Frisco RoughRiders, he’s just a wonderful man and kind of a mentor. I’ve learned a lot from him, he’s one of just again, very serious about his faith and lives a holistic integrated life and how it affects the decisions he makes within his company and how he treats people.
These are all be really good ones. Actually, no, I’m blessed, Jordan, I live in a part of the country, there’s actually quite a few believers and quite a few believers in the marketplace, and there’s a lot of believers in name only, and cultural Christians too but there’s a lot of serious followers of Christ here, who are in meaningful positions that – but those are three that I would mention and I’m happy to introduce you to any of them.
[0:43:27.7] JR: Yeah, that would be great. Hey Scott, what’s one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?
[0:43:33.8] SS: As I think about it Jordan, I’m going to actually iterate this, just to reiterate something. I don’t think I’ve said yet but I think this sums it up well and that is coming up with the definition of work, what does that mean and I might be paraphrasing because I haven’t been able to source this quote exactly but it’s attributed to Dorothy Sayers and it’s something to the effect of this:
“Work is the generous expression of our creative abilities in the service of others.” Work is the generous expression, yeah, pouring of our creative abilities in the service of others and when you have that mindset of what work is and that you're working for this benefit of others, using the creativity that God’s given you, we are image bearers. Therefore, we should be creative, Christians should be the best artists.
We should be the best musicians, we should be the best carpenters, architects, sports executives, all these things there as we reflect God on that but we serve the Lord and we serve Him by serving others but I love that definition by Dorothy Sayers.
[0:44:28.7] JR: You go the Sayers quote pretty good. That was almost verbatim, I’m very impressed.
[0:44:32.6] SS: I have had trouble finding exactly where that quote is.
[0:44:35.4] JR: Oh, I’ll send it to you, I got you.
[0:44:37.1] SS: Okay, please because I use it when I speak at certain things and I attribute it to her but I never know if I have it quite right.
[0:44:41.2] JR: I’ll look it up. I’m pretty sure it’s in her little pamphlet called, Why Work? Which is hard to find by the way but you can find copies of it online here and there. Man, Scott, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I just want to commend you for the exceptional work you do in Dallas, around the world, for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us today that our work, even work the world sees as useless sometimes, like sports and rugby and baseball, whatever, matters deeply to God because we matter to God.
The matter matters to God and thank you for giving us a picture of how to go about our work in a God-honoring way. Scott, if there’s people in our audience who want to learn more about you and your work, where is the best place for them to do that?
[0:45:23.9] SS: Sure, if they want to reach out at any type of personal level, I’d be happy to give out scott@scottsonju.com. It’s my personal email and I know it sounds vain but it’s easier to remember, so scott@scottsonju.com.
[0:45:33.9] JR: Hey, I own jordanraynor.com, so yeah.
[0:45:36.9] SS: Yes. So, I bought that domain a long time ago, and then trailrunnerint.com is the company that I’m with and there is a sports page, all of our bios are on the page and they’ll have some information on that as well and my page is also in – I’m an adjunct professor at SMU as well and there’s stuff there but happy to interact with folks on these things. I think these are important topics and I’d love, Jordan, what you’re doing. I got introduced to you by my daughter several years ago with, it might have been your first book you wrote.
[0:46:04.3] JR: Oh, that’s awesome.
[0:46:05.2] SS: She’s a real artistic creative person and we read that together and I love Christians who think about these things and try to really integrate following Christ, you know, in the world view, with all that they do.
[0:46:16.7] JR: It is a joy to be able to do the work and I love that your daughter got you into this Jordan Raynor universe. Scott, man, really appreciate your time, thanks for hanging out with us today.
[0:46:24.8] SS: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Blessings.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:46:27.5] JR: I love that episode. I hope you guys did as well. Hey, if you’ve got somebody you want to hear in the show, let me know at jordanraynor.com/contact. Thank you, guys, so much for tuning in, I’ll see you next week.
[END]