What it means to “fill and subdue” the earth today
What it means to “fill and subdue” the earth per God’s command in Genesis 1:28, the intrinsic goodness of any work “that helps, heals, entertains, or redeems,” and why Rachel is intentional about doing work that nobody will ever see.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals, but who work as auditors, hairdressers, and dental assistants. That's the question we explore every week. Today, I'm posing it to Rachel Marie Kang. She's a poet and author of a new book called Let There Be Art.
Rachel and I recently sat down to talk about what it means to “fill and subdue the earth," per God's command in Genesis 1:28. We talked about the intrinsic goodness of any work that helps heals, entertains, or redeems, and we talked about why Rachel is intentional about doing work that nobody will ever see. Please enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Rachel Marie Kang.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:07] JR: Rachel, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[00:01:09] RMK: Hey, hey. Thanks for having me today.
[00:01:13] JR: I was telling you before we start recording, my assistant is very sparing in her praise. But she was losing her mind over your book, Let There Be Art. So, I can't wait to talk about this book. It's a topic that I'm really passionate about. But your path to publishing this book was a pretty long and winding one. Can you share a little bit about that journey with our listeners?
[00:01:35] RMK: Yeah, definitely. I'll say it was long, winding and very unusual. Yeah, officially, I started out on this publishing journey, say 2012. First time, I thought maybe I have something to say, maybe there is a book in me. In and through rejections and redirections, I spent the last few years just working on my craft and working on my book idea. Up until 2020, and we all know, what 2020 signifies.
So, it was in that season, where the world is just – there's so much going on, and there's so much uncertainty, my family, my husband and I, we decided that that might be a great time to have another kid. And so, we tried and I got pregnant and just decided that that would be a season where we'd focus on our family. Everyone's home, you're together. And so, I decided that for my writing for this book, I would lay that down, I would not be pursuing that anymore, and I wouldn't be perfecting my book proposal.
Well, it just so happened that that summer, we also, all of us, I mean, we, all of us, were walking through some racial tensions in this country. So, around that time, I had written some words, it was actually around the death of George Floyd, I'd written some words. And those got picked up by an editor. And so, I was on this pathway to publishing and I didn't pursue it. But I love to tell people, I was prepared. I had spent 10 years working on this concept and this idea that morphed and it shifted and changed. But 10 years spent working on something and building it and chiseling it down. So, I was ready when that opportunity came and that invitation, and that became the book that I now have out today, which is Let There Be Art.
[00:03:23] JR: So basically, when you stop trying to get the deal, God brought you a book deal.
[00:03:27] RMK: Basically. That's how it happened. Without an agent, by the way.
[00:03:33] JR: Before all of our CPA and lawyer friends check out on this conversation. Can you define art for us in your own words? Because I really love how broadly you define it in the book.
[00:03:46] RMK: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, art is, oh, my gosh, I know that word trips up so many people, right? But I really do you believe that art is anything, any time that we are cultivating ways of making things that are beautiful, things that are new, and things that just give us space for exhale, an expression. That might look like a painting. As we all, when you hear that word, that's what pops into your head. That might look like a children's book. Reading a children's book, even, partaking in the art that someone else has created.
That might look like, I so enjoyed writing Chapter 12 of my book, Let There Be Thought, which is this idea of like, even our thinking, there's so much creativity in the way that we think and in the solutions that we come up with in this world. And so, how do we tap into that and own that? That yeah, we might not be dancing across some stage, but someone out there is researching sicknesses and illnesses and trying to find a cure and that's wildly creative. I think that giving that an adjective, that anything that is redemptive about these things that we do and make and create that that is art, and that is good art.
[00:05:11] JR: Yeah, it's good. I wrote about this in my book, Called to Create, five years ago that if we believe that we are made in the image of the creator God, then it is impossible to have a creation optional being, right? We all have creativity embedded in our DNA. And in your book, Let There Be Art, you wrote to all of us, even the CPA and the lawyer have, “been made with the capacity to create, not just works of art, but a world that reflects the very nature of God.” Go a little deeper there, Rachel. How can our work, “reflect the nature of God”? What do you mean by that?
[00:05:49] RMK: Yeah, well, I think I'll talk about my title to answer that question. When it came to me, I'll just say that, because I remember where it was sitting in my car. And I was like, “I'm not leaving this car until I have a better title.” But essentially, like, when that came to me, I was like, “Oh, my gosh. This resonates. This is good.” Because there's such a dual meaning here. It's like, yeah, let there be art as in, here's all the permission that you could ever need, or want to do the things that you want to do. Let there be art, here's your permission slip. But also let there be art, as in let's mirror what happens in Genesis when God speaks, “Let there be light.” What is he doing in that moment? He's demonstrating control, he is pushing back the boundary of darkness, and allowing light to illuminate, to win, to overpower this darkness. He's setting a boundary.
And I thought, “Oh, my gosh, if God is doing that in and through the act of creating, then perhaps, perhaps, we can do that too.” Right? And so, then it becomes this process and this act of, well, I'm creating, I'm sharing this work of art, I'm partaking in this process, I'm cultivating creativity, whether it's being seen or not by others, not simply because I am making something beautiful, or I'm making something that's going to be on display in museums or on stages. But because this is bringing me peace, this work, this product, this business that I'm building and creating, it's bringing help into the world and hope into the world. And in and through that, we are putting back the darkness.
Nothing new under the sun, right? I'm not speaking something hugely crazy and wild, but I just thought, what if I just centered my book on that? Maybe the CPA, and the lawyer, and the thinker, and the mathematician, and the poet who is unpublished, and the mom who's tucked away in her home, and doesn't have a job or work and is wondering, “Where's my value? And where's my purpose? And how do I contribute? How do I make things? And where's my creativity? What is that?”
Well, all those things and ways that you are creating a safe space in your house, all those pillows, all those candles that that help welcome strangers into your house. You're not just making a pretty home, you're pushing back the darkness in someone's life, potentially. You're allowing space for light, for hope, for healing, and that is the way of God.
[00:08:34] JR: That's good. You wrote, “Any and all art”, like we could also substitute the word work here, “that helps, heals names, entertains, or redeems is good.” Tell us how.
[00:08:49] RMK: Yeah, this goes back into, and that part that you just quoted, I am also kind of elaborating on something that Madeline L'Engle writes about, in Walking on Water, a message that a lot of us know about. And so, this idea of like, by and through the act of creating an art, essentially, we're taking this kind of chaos, and we're giving it order. I think we all can attest to how we feel that and how that makes us feel and how good that is to live in places and in a world where there can be some sense of order.
So yeah, I think that songs, movies that help us make sense of, “Oh, my gosh, here's this chaos that's happening. Here's this conflict and what can we do? How can we embark on our journeys? What kind of friendships are we cultivating?” The work that we do, as you say, and as you write in your messages, how can these things be redemptive and good? They help make sense. They help bring order and that's good work. That is good work.
[00:09:56] JR: I was reading a commentary recently on Genesis 1:28, cultural mandate where God issues this first commission to humankind to fill and subdue the earth. And it was written by Wayne Grudem, this renowned theologian, editor of The ESV Bible, and he says that that word subdue, that God commands Adam and Eve to do means, “To make the earth more useful for human beings benefit and enjoyment.” So, to use your language, Rachel, any and all work that helps heals, entertains, or redeems so long as it's in accordance with God's commands is good, because it's helping to subdue or make the earth more useful for human beings’ benefit and enjoyment. I think it's that simple. I think that removes the pressure to have to give a religious justification for everything we do in our work, right?
[00:10:52] RMK: Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you're saying, I have to say, one of the books that I've been loving in this season is Creation Rediscovered by Jeffrey Leonard. He is a Bible scholar at Samford University, and he writes, “Humankind is charged,” and this is of Genesis 1. “Humankind is charged with the job of bringing creation under control. But this can only be the case if creation is conceived of as still being out of control in some measure, when the humans are created. And indeed, this is precisely what Genesis 1 describes. While the world God creates is declared by its creator, to be good, there remains in a sense of wildness and chaos that must yet be controlled. This is the task entrusted to the humans with the commands to rule and subdue creation.” Yeah.
[00:11:48] JR: So good. And that's what lawyers do.
[00:11:52] RMK: Yes, they do.
[00:11:52] JR: That’s what CPAs do with numbers and mathematicians do with numbers and what artists do to make the world more useful. I love how you point out the book that God gives our work, “worth that precedes the opinions of others.” What do you mean by this? Talk a little bit more about this?
[00:12:11] RMK: Yeah, well, I wrote that, I think I was able to write that, because I spent so many years creating in the private and just enjoying that. I often tell people, when I was younger, I didn't want to be a writer. Actually, that wasn't on the radar. I think I'd wanted to be a dentist at one point, and then, a famous rockstar, literally. But being a writer and writing books, when I was younger, and even in high school, that didn't hit me until a specific season. And so, when I was writing, and when I was crafting poems, and writing songs, I was doing so without this goal or thought of being seen somewhere, someday. It was all just pouring out my heart, expressing my emotions and my thoughts and making sense and making order of what I was seeing in the world and in myself.
I think that's such a huge part of how I was able to write that line about, it really is about Him seeing us in the things that we do, and He assigns worth well before anyone else does. And I think that that's a huge trip up for a lot of people. Because when you do think about art, and when you do think about creativity, it's almost as if there always has to be this end goal of this product. At the risk of sounding cliche, we often forget that perhaps just that process is what's important, and being seen by God in that process, that's what matters.
[00:13:48] JR: I think God cares way more about – he doesn't need us to attain any result in our work. At the end of the day, what does it say in Job 42, “His purposes will not be thwarted. But His purposes will always prevail.” It says in Proverbs, right? And so, he doesn't need us to attain a specific result. I think he's far more concerned about who we are becoming as we go about the process of creating the end result, right?
[00:14:18] RMK: Yeah. And even to, even just in that, it's like, it doesn't even always have to be about who we're becoming. Sometimes it can be just about that communion, which when you spend a coffee date with someone, maybe there's a goal, but sometimes it's just about connecting with that person and knowing them more and knowing them better and deeper and loving them more because of that, and I think we miss that. We think going to church and worshiping, that's how you connect with God. But there are all these million other ways that we can do that and consequently, our art and cultivating creativity, that provides that pathway for fellowship with God.
[00:14:56] JR: You talk a little bit more about what you mean by that. How does the world work that you do, creating books, creating poems, creating art, whatever, are you saying you feel closer connected to God as you do that work? And if so, what does that look like a little more tangibly?
[00:15:13] RMK: Yeah, well, maybe people will feel closer. I certainly do sometimes. I think that for me personally, when I'm able to look face to face at the things that are inside of me, the thoughts and the emotions, and there could be a tendency to be overwhelmed. Like, “Oh, my gosh, I'm such a horrible person to be thinking this, or to have this thought in my head, or the same motion to carry this.” But I think that when you lay that all out, and maybe that's, you're chopping up vegetables in your kitchen, and all these thoughts are coming. But that instead of being overwhelmed by these things that we find inside of ourselves, we can bring that to God, we can pray through those things, we can worship Him for the good that we see or that we're experiencing. Maybe we're feeling joy. It's not always bad. Maybe we're feeling joy or awe. I'm feeling on this season.
So, yeah, I think that sharing those moments with God, telling him about them, putting them on display, if that's journaling, if that's writing, if you're a scientist in a lab, and you've just discovered something and worshiping about that, and being excited about this discovery, that brings him glory. And so yeah, I think those little ways, and oftentimes this will be hidden, but there's an opportunity there.
[00:16:37] JR: Yeah, I want to go back to this idea that God gives our work that precedes the opinions of others, because this is so contrary to the way that we think about work today, right? Work is the primary means by which I achieve and attain applause from the world, right? And how a lot of people get self-worth. How practically do you stay cognizant of this truth that God has already given your work worth, before you go to work and achieve any result? How do you preach that truth to yourself on a regular basis?
[00:17:11] RMK: Yeah, that's good. I hope this will answer this question. So, as a writer, I have found that that is now my work. That's only happened in like the last few years. It just happened, and now this thing that I have loved for all of my life to do, and it's been such a private process for me, it's now so public, and it has merits with it, right? There are book awards, and you get paid for doing things.
And so, I have been trying to practice other forms of either creativity or work without recognition that is unseen, to try to keep my heart in that place of like, it matters that I do this for myself and for my relationship with God. And so, there are photographs on my DSLR camera that no one will ever see, and there are sketches in my journal that no one will ever see, and there are ideas for businesses and ideas for I don't know, the world drafted up in my Google Drive that no one will ever see.
I have found that doing those and even the work that I do with my children, I can only share so much in my stories, right? I can only tell so many stories about my kids and my books and on my Instagram and on my blog. But there are moments, and I'm trying to treasure those, that happened behind the closed doors of my home that no one will ever see. I am trying to find my worth and my joy, and my awe, and even communion with Christ as I experiment with those and live them out, if that makes sense.
[00:18:55] JR: This is really interesting to me. So, you're intentional about these things not being seen?
[00:19:00] RMK: Yeah, I am. Yeah.
[00:19:04] JR: So, explain why. This is fascinating to me.
[00:19:05] RMK: Yeah, I mean, I think that maybe, I don't know. I don't know if this can be chalked up to personality or this truly is a practice of mine. But I mean, it brings me back to the days pre-Instagram. I mean, I'm young, but I know what it's like to live before Instagram, too. Those days where I would cut class and I’m not recommending that you cut class, but I would cut class and go to the music annex to play music, to work out my emotions. Those journals that I kept. I don't do much journaling these days. But when I did journal, those were all pages that no eyes would ever see.
So, I think in a sense, I'm trying to crawl back to that and like I said, writing is really no longer an option for that, because it has become work in this season, and it's exhausting to try to work and write, and then outside of that, to write for pleasure. So, I've really tried to find some other things to do that with.
[00:20:07] JR: I think there's probably a sense that the things we do in secret that nobody will ever see, can lead to deeper communion with the Father, knowing that he alone sees them, right? It's an intimate thing. It's this thing that only me and my Creator are seen. Does that make sense to you?
[00:20:23] RMK: Well, absolutely. And here's the thing, we do this, or we're supposed to do this with our praying, right? And we do this or we're supposed to do this, with our worship, our singing. And we do this, or we're supposed to do this, even with our giving, right? This idea that we are doing these things not to be seen by others. We don't pray loudly so that others can see just how worthy and esteemed we are. But these things, we do them in the secret.
At the risk of sounding cliche, or trying to wrap it up with a pretty bow. Jesus did these things, too. He often got away and was alone. And I don't know if he wrote songs or recited prayers, poetic prayers off the top of his head. I can't say that he painted paintings, but there was something about just getting away, and being alone, and being with God. So, if it helps you to do that, by keeping your fingers busy and knitting, then do that. And if it helps you to do that by taking pictures and capturing beauty and then being able to share that moment with your Creator, then so be it.
[00:21:33] JR: Yeah, the root of this conversation is something that Makoto Fujimura talks a lot about, I know you're a big Mako fan. Mako was on the podcast in 2022 talking about kind of our over obsession with purpose and function, like this idea that everything has to have a utilitarian purpose to it, or it shouldn’t be done. You're talking about the very opposite of this, like pushing against this, right?
I don't know, for me. I've been dwelling on this a lot over the last couple of years, just the fact that God Himself shows Himself working for the pure joy of it. Genesis 2, He made the trees useful for food and beautiful. They didn’t need to be beautiful, right? But he made it beautiful. The New Jerusalem is a good example. 29 million feet of precious stones line the base of the New Jerusalem. There's no function. All right, just because He wanted to do it.
[00:22:32] RMK: Yeah. I wanted to say this, I remember in youth group, I had this one amazing youth leader, he was like the coolest person I know and still is, and he gave this message one night talking about the baptism of Jesus and where Jesus comes from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. And he gets baptized, right? He comes up out of the water and the Spirit of God descends like a dove and says, “This is my Son, whom I love, with him, I’m well pleased.”
The message was, Jesus didn't do anything at that point in his ministry. That was the very beginning of His ministry. He didn't heal. He didn't save anyone yet. That had all yet to happen. And yet, God says to his son, “I'm pleased with you”, before He's done anything miraculous, or crazy, wild.
So, I think that also speaks to like how we can exist in this world is that, obviously, there's work to do, and it is good work because it is redemptive work, and it reflects the heart of God. But even before we put a finger to any of these things, whether it's work or art, God loves us. He's pleased with us, and there's something to that.
[00:23:49] JR: Listener, if you tune in every week, you've heard almost those exact words about Jesus’s baptism from a couple of different guests. I hope you didn't fast forward through it. I hope you sat with it and realized, clearly the Holy Spirit's talking to you about this. He wants you to hear this particular word that God loves you before you do a single thing for him in the advancement of his kingdom. And paradoxically, that's the thing that should lead us to be wildly ambitious to do the work, not because he needs us, not because we need anything from the work in order to please him, but just simply as an act of worship, as a worshipful response to his love.
Hey, Rachel, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending most these days?
[00:24:40] RMK: Definitely Creation Rediscovered by Dr. Jeffrey M. Leonard. Like I said, he is a Bible scholar at Samford University and that book wrecked my world in all the ways that I rest and work. So, to everyone listening, go get that book.
[00:24:56] JR: Great. It's a great for gifting. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work?
[00:25:02] RMK: Okay, I'm so excited about this question. I really want to hear you talking to my friend Stephen Roach of Makers & Mystics. He is also author of Naming the Animals: An Invitation to Creativity. You guys would have such a stellar conversation. And I know your listeners would just gobble up everything that he says. So, definitely have him on.
[00:25:26] JR: That's a great tip. All right, I'll be reaching out. And hey, Rachel, what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?
[00:25:34] RMK: Definitely. Well, I want to speak to the Mere Christians, and that's all of us, right? That we can create as a way of pushing back the darkness in our lives and in this world, and you can start right where you're at. You don't need to be famous. You don't need to go out and buy all these expensive fancy tools and gadgets. You can start right where you are. And if you need help with that, my book will help you. And I know that this podcast certainly will.
[00:26:04] JR: It's a good word. Rachel, I want to commend you for the terrific and creative work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us of the intrinsic goodness of our work and the value of simply being with God as we do the work. Guys, the book is Let There Be Art. You can pick it up wherever books are sold. Rachel, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.
[00:26:26] RMK: Thanks for having me. Honored to do this with you, Jordan.
[OUTRO]
[00:26:30] JR: I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Hey, if you got somebody you'd like to hear on the podcast, let me know at jordanraynor.com/contact. Thank you, guys, so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
[END]