Why not to lead with your why at work
Why you should consider NOT leading with your why, how and why God calls us to make counter-strategic moves at work, and how Jesus’s example leads us to push back against worldly wisdom about delegation.
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[0:00:05] JR: Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as sales directors, drywall installers, and couriers. That's the question we explore every week.
Today, I'm posing it to Philip Klayman. He's the co-founder of Three Tree Coffee based in Statesboro, Georgia with a few locations around the State of Georgia. Philip and I had a phenomenal conversation. You guys know I sell you on three things from every episode, right? I probably could have given you seven from this one. We talked about why you should consider not leading with your why and your faith in the workplace. But of course, always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that's within you. We talked about how and why God calls us to make counter-strategic moves at work, and how Jesus' example leads us to push back against worldly wisdom around delegation. I loved this episode with my new friend, Philip Klayman.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:15] JR: Philip Klayman, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:18] PK: Thank you. I'm super excited to be on. I appreciate you having me.
[0:01:20] JR: I was telling you before, I thoroughly enjoyed some cup of coffee roasted by your team at Three Tree Coffee. My wife and I enjoyed this morning. It was dope. What's your favorite roast? I don't know – what did I have? You told me what I had, it's some yellow label.
[0:01:37] PK: Only the best for you, Jordan. I sent you what is my favorite roast right now. It is our Honduras, Copan coffee.
[0:01:44] JR: Yes, that's what I had.
[0:01:44] PK: It's got a black honey process, which just in brief means that the seeds are aged in some of the mucilage for a time that allows fermentation. Long story short, it is a really fantastic cup, yellow label. Sent it to you because I thought you'd enjoy it. That is my go-to coffee right now.
[0:01:59] JR: How do you take your coffee?
[0:02:00] PK: I take it black. I enjoy a black cup of coffee. I also really enjoy some smaller espresso drinks. So maybe just straight espresso, or cortado, or something like that.
[0:02:09] JR: I don't think I've ever met somebody who's like serious in the coffee world that doesn't drink their coffee black. I'm not there. I'm not there. I need some work. I'm not very serious about my coffee.
[0:02:19] PK: Say it takes time. I did not like coffee when I first got out of college. There's always hope. There's always hope.
[0:02:23] JR: If you go to the Mere Christians Podcast website, the description for this show says, the three vocations I mentioned are entrepreneurs, baristas, and accountants. What's crazy is, we've never actually had a barista, which kind of cracks me up. We've had lots of entrepreneurs, we've had some accountants. But speaking of college, you worked as a barista straight out of college. Is that where you started to fall in love with coffee?
[0:02:48] PK: Yes, it is. Throughout college, I went to the University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia, and I did not drink coffee. I thought coffee was gross. It kind of tasted bitter. I didn't understand the whole craze around it. Coming out of college, my wife was still in school, and I was looking for a gig that kept us in Athens, and I applied for a job as a barista. I think it was the community that drew me in more than the coffee itself. They never asked me if I liked coffee or not, and got the job. But it was through that job that absolutely I started –
[0:03:15] JR: Pretty important interview question, PS.
[0:03:17] PK: You'd think so. They asked me, if I was a vegetable, what I'd be. But anyway, that's where I really fell in love with coffee. More importantly, I really started to see the potential it has to mobilize communities. It was really amazing seeing people gather around this product, and almost be more open to each other around this product. I think that's where it really gave the dream of, wow, what can we do with this for God's kingdom?
[0:03:37] JR: What was your answer to the question of what vegetable would you be if you were a vegetable?
[0:03:43] PK: You can't tell it from the video, Jordan, but I'm six foot five and a half. So I said, I would be a carrot, because I'm tall.
[0:03:49] JR: I love it. And you got red hair. That's like a perfect answer.
[0:03:51] PK: Exactly. I got the job. If you ever get asked that question, answer carrot and there's a good chance.
[0:03:56] JR: Nailed it. All right. So tell us about the origin story of Three Tree, this coffee company that you are co-founder, co-owner of. How did this thing get started?
[0:04:07] PK: My wife is from Statesboro, Georgia, which is where I currently live. We ended up moving to Statesboro to be a little bit closer to her family for a season. This was all around the time where we were starting to just kind of see a vision for how God could use coffee in our life, to glorify Him to the ends of the earth. It kind of all started with saying, "Well, we know how to make coffee. We can make a pour over, we can pull shots of espresso, we can draw latte art. We should probably learn a little bit more about the roasting side."
My wife and I spent all of our savings on this tiny little roaster, and then just started roasting in our backyard, one pound literally at a time, and selling it at our local farmers market, and just saying, "Let's get more comfortable with roasting, and probably more importantly, let's get more comfortable with business." If we want to use business as a ministry or as missions, we better learn. We better learn how to sell, how to market ourselves, and all these different things. That's how it all started, just roasting coffee in our backyard one pound at a time, and we weren't sure what it would become. But God has some pretty amazing plans for us, and so, we're excited about where it's gone.
[0:05:05] JR: I love it. Do you know my friend Jeff Heck of Monday Night Brewing? He's not too far from you.
[0:05:10] PK: That does not ring a bell. Monday Night Brewing rings a bell, but the name doesn't.
[0:05:15] JR: Yes. Monday Night Brewing is a big deal in the southeast. They're a great beer manufacturer. But Jeff Heck, as a serious Jesus follower. He's actually been here on the Mere Christians Podcast before. This is how they got started. Just brewing beer on Monday nights in the backyard at a Bible study, and has turned into this fairly major brand in the southeast. You guys got to connect. You said this a couple times, how coffee can glorify God. Be explicit about what you mean by that? How does coffee glorify our Heavenly Father?
[0:05:45] PK: My wife and I, we're actually looking at doing missions prior to – kind of that in between stage. I said, I graduated college and started working at a coffee shop. Then it was two years later that we ended up moving to Statesboro and roasting coffee. During that time, we were looking for ways to join teams overseas. My degree was in agriculture, specifically agricultural economics. I got that degree because I wanted to use it for ag development in developing countries as a business admissions model.
We were looking at some different teams around the world, and a lot of the situations just fell through because of just really unique freak situations, whether it was medical issues with some of the team leaders, or we actually went to Indonesia at one point. God has made it clear on that trip to us, and the team that we were going to join that this just wasn't what God had for us.
There was about a two-year wandering in the desert. That's traumatic. There was two years where we were trying to figure out, "God, what do you want to do with our lives?" We thought, missions was really noble and really good, and I still think it's incredibly honorable for anyone that is willing to lay down their life and move to another culture. Yet, he just kept closing doors on us. Of course, we're wrestling with, do we fight through the doors or is this God's will, and all that stuff.
Long story short, that's where we just started to see what was right in front of us. We saw people gathering around coffee. Once again, just being more open around this beverage to one another. We saw lots of believers working in coffee. Yet, none of them were really working together, and none of them really knew each other, and that was strange to me. It was just like coffee just kept getting dropped in our lap and connections with coffee kept getting dropped in our lap. That's when we said, "Okay, God. Clearly, coffee has the Christian world's attention, and that's awesome. Once again, we'd love a good coffee. What if we use that beverage and directed that attention towards other things that are on your heart? Like ending human trafficking, or missions to the unreached." Really, those two years is where a lot of these thoughts were getting formed of how can we use this simple beverage to utilize and transform communities. It's been a wild – it's been exciting to see how that's been playing out.
[0:07:47] JR: I just finished a great, that's actually recommended to me by a guest here on the show, Dave Evans, who is a co-founder of EA Sports. The book was, The Will of God as a Way of Life. Have you read this?
[0:07:58] PK: I have not.
[0:07:58] JR: It's really fascinating. It's this former pastor, basically, the crux of the book is, we spend so much time obsessing about God's will for our lives in the future, but scripture talks very little about that. In fact, Jesus is saying constantly, "Hey, don't worry about tomorrow. Don't worry about tomorrow. Worry about today. Worry about what's right in front of you. Worry about doing God's will in the present. It sounds like that's kind of your story, right? You guys are looking ahead of what's next, what's this next season, what's this next thing, God's closing those doors. And forcing you guys to just look around and be like, "What's in our hand right now that God has called us a steward?" I'm putting words in your mouth. Is that a fair characterization of kind of the process that you and your wife went through?
[0:08:45] PK: Oh, absolutely. Right. A part of this is a dying to self-story, because I wasn't a big planner during college, but kind of coming out of college, I've always had just strategy. I've loved strategy. I've loved being strategic. It's always looking ahead and saying, what's next? How can I leverage my life the most for God How can I leverage my resources the most? I mean, it was always looking ahead and very strategic focus. A part of this is dying to self, because, though I do think God uses strategy. We actually have a lot of scripture of God's will being used through strategy, Paul. Specifically going to different places, because he said, "I'm going to go where there's no witness." He's strategically thinking, how can I glorify God?
Frequently, he calls us to things that just don't make worldly sense. It literally is counter-strategic sometimes. Actually, I can share about that with us closing on Sundays in 2017, if we want to talk about that story. There are times where he calls us to things that simply don't make sense or are not strategic. It's a dying to self-thing, of not looking ahead –
[0:09:43] JR: How is it the dying to self-thing?
[0:09:44] PK: Yes. It's because we like comfort, we like knowing how things are going to go down, we like security. He doesn't want those things to be idols. I think it's all founded out of love, where he wants us to depend on Him and to trust Him the most. It's easy for these things to become idols and to say, |I've got this. I can do it on my own resources or I want to be in control of the situation." Yet, that's not what's going to bring him the most glory. It's not what's going to bring us the most joy. It takes dying to self. Sometimes letting go. Not sometimes, always letting go, daily carrying your cross and saying, "God, this is for you, it's all for you, and my hands are open. If you were to tell me to do something completely different today, I'm following you." That is a scary way to live.
[0:10:30] JR: Yes, 100%. We can't take credit for the results when we do counter-strategic things, because they don't make any sense when we're doing these things. We're just doing them out of obedience.
[0:10:40] PK: Yep, absolutely.
[0:10:42] JR: I had to ask you this. For many, many years, I thought about the creation account in Genesis and wanted to – I thought, especially, I didn't think at Genesis 2 frankly, a whole lot. I thought about Genesis 1, and God creating with his words. It's hard to look at that and describe that as work, when you just say, "Let there be light" and there's light. But then, when we flip the page to Genesis 2, I love that we see God getting his hands in the dirt, by planting a garden, it says in the east. Tim Keller went so far as to call God's work in Genesis to "manual labor," which I love. What is the fact that God does work with his words in his hands, planting agricultural things mean for you that does so much of his work and the work of this business working with this earth? Is that meaningful to you?
[0:11:35] PK: Oh, man. It's incredibly meaningful. What it speaks to me is that he actually made us in His image. He actually did make us in His image, and that work has a purpose. I think that's incredibly comforting, I think for everyone. Even in entrepreneurship, where you "own your own business," there are still days that feel like the grind, feel like the day in and day out. It's easy to start looking at work as just this thing we're trying to avoid or get away from. Yet, here is God Himself creating work, choosing to work, mandating Adam to work. Clearly, work is a part of his life-giving design. It's incredibly comforting to me, that he would be wanting to be in the same sort of work that we're doing, that he would put his hands to the plow as well, in a sense.
[0:12:26] JR: Yes. I almost think the Genesis 2 exposition is there for us so that we don't make the mistake of thinking Genesis 1 was not actually were. If Genesis 1, the transcendent majesty of Genesis 1 leaves us to doubt if something was work, Genesis 2 leaves no doubt. That's a paraphrase of a quote from the Theology of Work Commentary that I really, really love. It gives intrinsic value to the work that we do.
If God works for the pure joy of it — God had no need to work, he had no need to create. Because God works through the pure joy of making this world more useful for other human beings’ benefit and enjoyment, then we are free too, as well. Our work has intrinsic value. That said, and you've already alluded to this, Philip. Our work also has great instrumental value. It is a vehicle that can lead to other good things. When I asked you in our pre interview, why you think your work matters to God, you pointed to something instrumental that I love, that I don't think we've talked about enough on this podcast. The simple fact that your business provides for your family, why do you think that was the first thing that came to mind when I asked that question?
[0:13:39] PK: Oh, man. Well, the simplest answer is they just mean so much to me. I mean, I love them to death. I know that God has such a strong heart for the family unit. I said, we moved to Statesboro to be closer to my wife's family. That was God directed. That was not something we said, "Oh, this makes sense." That was, God was really taking us through a season of showing us how much the family unit means to him. At its core, it's the most robust form of discipleship. We're talking about Genesis, how he didn't just mandate work, he also mandated creating people. Which of course, I know that can mean other things than just literally making people, but, you also can't separate it from the fact of being fruitful, and multiplying, and literally having –
[0:14:17] JR: It's the first command in the first commission, be fruitful and increase the number, procreate.
[0:14:21] PK: Exactly. Then, they're instructed to rule, and take dominion, which requires people. The family is the original hierarchy of ruling. I think, this is one of the reasons why I think it's in First Timothy, where Paul instructs Timothy that, if you want to be an elder, you must manage your household well. Anyone who wants to be an elder, this is a requirement first. Why? Because the family unit is the unit in which God created dominion to take place, ruling to take place. For me, if I want to be a good leader in my work, it starts in the home.
If I can't be a good leader at home, and if I can't see that as my truest form of discipleship, how is that ever going to translate further in my work or anywhere else? To me, it's profoundly important. It's foundational.
[0:15:03] JR: I overlooked that. I forget that, oh, yeah, by the way, this work enables me to provide for this family unit that I'm called the lead and call to disciple. I love that.
[0:15:14] PK: It's easy to mix those up too. I have seasons where I'm more focused on work than family, and seasons were more family than work. This is where God's patient and he's not counting numbers here. That's what's so encouraging to me is, in my weakness, he's strong, and when I confess, he's willing to forgive, and he's patient. It has definitely not been a perfect journey of walking that out. But my goodness, they mean the world to me, and I'm doing so much of this for my family, and that they would glorify Him.
[0:15:39] JR: That's good. The name of the business Three Tree Coffee points to three other ways your work has instrumental value. Can you tell us what the name of the business represents?
[0:15:50] PK: Absolutely. We think a tree symbolizes life in so many ways. A lot of this comes from scripture, symbolism from scripture, how the trees give – it gives breath for us to breathe, and a shelter for the birds of the air, and food for us to eat, a tree to symbolize as very much a giving symbolism for us. We want to give life in three ways. We want to empower our farmers, we want to end human trafficking, and we want to engage the community. That's the threefold mission why we're called Three Tree Coffee.
[0:16:19] JR: All right. Let's go deeper on a couple of these. I'd love to go deeper on the farmer piece, actually. Listen, I'll be honest, a little ignorant here. I know that I should buy fairtrade coffee, direct trade coffee, whatever. I don't think I, and a lot of our listeners understand the problem, and understand what you and other coffee roasters are doing to solve the problem. Talk more about that. How do you see this as an expression of your faith, what you're doing for and with local coffee farmers?
[0:16:50] PK: Absolutely. Once again, my degree was in agriculture, and as I was studying this, and looking at how we buy our agricultural – basically our food from around the world. It became pretty clear that there's lots of systems that just keep people in poverty.
[0:17:05] JR: Yes. Systemic brokenness.
[0:17:07] PK: Yes. If you look at the coffee, tea industry, cocoa industry, all these things come out of a history of slave labor. Where indigenous people were forced to work for literally nothing so that other people could profit off of it. That leaves collateral damage, no matter how much you try to turn the table on that. That's going to leave some collateral damage, and so, the result is, most of the world doesn't expect to spend much on their food. None of us want to spend a lot of money on our food. It's like, that's the one that we noticed the most, maybe besides gas.
But when food goes up, we're all just at an uproar of why is this happening, this is ridiculous. My food should be cheap. I say all that because there are just systems that are keeping a lot of farmers in these poverty situations, not because they're not willing to work hard, but because a lot of us just don't care where our stuff comes from, as long as it's cheap. Thankfully, I would say the coffee industry as a whole has been an incredible pioneer of this for the past few decades.
There are two main ways that Three Tree does this. One is through Fair Trade USA. They're a separate organization. They're not Three Tree. They're not the coffee farmer. They're a third-party organization. They just certify the farmer, the coop, importing and exporting, and the roaster to say, "If you're all a part of this organization, we will ensure that this coffee is paying the farmer a minimum price per pound. It's almost like an international minimum wage. Let's say that, the industry standard of what coffee farmers would get paid around the world varies —drastically depending on where you are. It's around 60 cents per pound is what a farmer would see for their very hard work. We go and spend $10, $15, $20 per pound. On average, a farmer is seeing maybe 60 cents of that. When I was in Indonesia, we saw situations where it was 20 cents, or 15 cents. So just low, low representation, low value.
Fair Trade comes in and says, "Okay. For coffee, the fair trade minimum price is $1.80." If we as Three Tree buy a fair trade coffee, we know the farmer has paid a minimum of $1.80. It could be more. There are some downsides to fair trade. We don't always know who the farmer is. There's not much transparency there. But we know they were paid a minimum that's far better than the average standard. That's a little bit about how fair trade works. Direct trade is building some more direct partnerships, which is so messy.
[0:19:26] JR: I can't imagine. You're talking about direct relationships between you, the roaster, and the farmer?
[0:19:31] PK: Yes. That's where you almost always need someone in the middle. When we're talking to coffee from Kenya, Brazil, and Indonesia, I don't know all the languages, I don't know all the cultures, and I don't know how to get it through imports and exports. There are always going to be people helping with these relationships, but it's about trying to find the right partners that have a similar vision and are willing to be very transparent on who was paid what and when. So that we know that the value is very clean across the board, and it's not exploiting the value off the farmer so that other people can have high gain.
An example of this would be – actually, I will use the Honduras, Copan coffee that you drank today. That comes from a farm called Finca Terrerito, Leticia Lopez. Actually, this is a great situation where we do know the farm owner. Her name is Leticia Lopez. We saw her at a conference last week. We're connected with her, we know her, it's paying far better prices than the fair trade minimums. It has a higher potential for impact, a lot more difficult to coordinate, and set up, and a lot riskier, but much higher potential for impact.
[0:20:33] JR: Okay. This is going to be way more expensive, and probably why I hear a lot about fair trade coffee, and direct trade was kind of a new term to me. This is going to be way more difficult, way riskier, way more expensive. Talk more about that impact that you're trying to have, and how your faith compels you to do the more expensive, more sacrificial thing?
[0:20:57] PK: Absolutely. Oh, gosh. It is more expensive. I remember, during the pandemic when the world shut down, we saw sales dropped by 74% over one month. I mean, it was just like the world's falling apart. We're trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and how do we keep this business going. I remember thinking at one point, and it wasn't like a thought like, we will do this. It was just a thought of, I know we could get coffee for half the costs right now. It would be that simple. I don't think anyone would even be mad.
[0:21:25] JR: Nobody would notice.
[0:21:27] PK: Nobody would notice and no one would be upset, because we're doing what we need to do to survive. Yet, if we compromise our values in those moments, then we're never going to live up to those values when it's good. Once again, it was never an actual thought of consideration. But absolutely, we could get coffee cheaper, it would be easier. But I don't think that's glorifying God and reflecting his character.
As I mentioned, if you were to look at where the absolute poor are in the world, not relative poor, but the absolute poor, they are huddled around agrarian economies. It is centered around food being the major or just some sort of ag crop being the major export or economic driver. Jesus has a heart for the poor. You look at his ministry, and he has a huge heart for the poor. So God cares about the poor, James 5.
[0:22:17] JR: There we go. I was just about to go there.
[0:22:19] PK: James 5, I feel like is the small business owner passage. It's a warning. It's a warning and an encouragement.
[0:22:24] JR: It's a terrifying – let me pull it up and read it so we all know what we're talking about. James 5:1, "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, the moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. "You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look. The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth and luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter." Okay, happy to pick me up. The mic is yours, Philip. Keep going.
[0:23:09] PK: I think the NASB translation, I think it says something like, it says, your gold and silver will rust, and it will consume your flesh like fire. I mean, some of the imagery is intense.
[0:23:19] JR: It's talking about agricultural workers.
[0:23:22] PK: It is, exactly. It's interesting. God cares about laborers. He cares about the people working. Now, there's a phrase that comes up frequently, and Paul uses it to talk about people in ministry, but it applies across the board. The laborer's worthy of his wages. What's scary about this, is I think a lot of us in the west don't even realize what we're supporting when we buy certain things, and that's scary.
I'll give you an example. The cocoa industry was kind of on high alert about five or six years ago, because as a lot of research was done, they were finding that there was a lot of child labor. Very harsh child labor happening on these cacao farms, working long hours, not getting paid anything, terrible sleeping quarters, really, really bad stuff. This is where Hershey's and Nestle were sourcing most of their chocolate from.
If you were to go into the boardroom of Hershey's and Nestle, and say, "Hey, who supports child labor, terrible child conditions?" No one wants that. They just weren't paying attention. That's what's scary to me as a business owner, as a consumer, what are we supporting just because we aren't paying attention. And just because we can't see them doesn't mean they're not our neighbor. I don't think Jesus is going to give a pass there. It matters where we buy our stuff. It matters how we treat everyone around us, including where we're buying our things from. So I think this is something that's important to God, and I think it reflects him well to say, "Hey, let's be ethical with how we buy our things."
[0:24:46] JR: Can I push back on this for a second?
[0:24:48] PK: Yeah, please.
[0:24:49] JR: I agree with everything you just said. But man, if I were to pay attention to where everything was sourced out, that's a full-time job. So I'm pushing – I'm not really pushing back. I am pleading for somebody, maybe a believer who's listening to this episode right now to make that easier for me to see wherever, how everything I'm buying is being sourced. Are you aware of a tool that can help me and other consumers buy better and buy from distributors and manufacturers that are not exploiting the poor?
[0:25:21] PK: Yes. I think you bring up a great point. Something we talk a lot about with our team, our staff members, our customers, because it's overwhelming. When we first train our staff members, we go through this mission step by step. A lot of times, we get to the end of it, and it's like, "Goodness, gracious. What do I do?" The encouragement is just, take your next step. Once again, God is patient, and he wants to work with us in this journey. So do I source everything perfect, 100% of the time? No, I really don't even know if that's possible in this day and age.
I do think there's some encouragement on next steps. One is consuming less probably helps. I know that's a little bit of a different take on this, but I think a lot of this is because we just like a lot of stuff. We want more, and we want more, and we want more. It's just kind of that rampant nature of more, and more, and more that usually fuels a lot of these situations. It will cause us to, in a way, compromise, right? Because we don't have time, we need more, we need more. I don't have time to look into this. I think one simple way is just consuming less.
Then the second thing would be, absolutely, I agree with you. If someone is out there in the tech industry and can really streamline this, it would be wonderful. But thankfully with Google, and with searching, and with – I mean, there's just so many ways to find these things now. It's as simple as what I encourage my team is, instead of just Googling backpack, or cool backpack. Google, ethically sourced cool backpack. You'll be surprised at how many businesses you can start to find on your own.
I was at Costco the other day, and I'm not thinking where did every single product come from. I'm being honest. Once again, it's just – it doesn't happen 24/7. And yet, as I was at the grapes, the grapes, I saw three different types of grapes, and one of them had the Fair Trade logo. I said, "Oh, no way. Fair trade grapes," and I bought them, and they were more expensive. But how simple was that? I think Fair Trade is doing a lot to help that as well.
[0:27:14] JR: That's really good, man. I love that it's super practical and helpful for me, and hopefully, our listeners. You sent this message before our interview. You said, "I wouldn't call us a Christian coffee shop, but we do want to be a light on the hill and a light for our communities." I love what you said there for two reasons. First, because coffee shops don't have souls. There's no such thing as a Christian coffee shop are a Christian business. Only Christians who own and work in coffee shops and businesses. I do think that's more important than semantics.
Second, because I think by not leading with your why, by not making all the Ts in your logo crosses, you probably reach more lost people than you would otherwise. Would you agree with that?
[0:28:09] PK: Yes, I would. It's interesting. It's very easy to get caught up in cultural Christianity that maybe does or maybe does not have much depth or relationship with Christ or relationship with others. It's kind of more of, just a slap a label on me, this is what I am. Deal with it. I think it can sometimes have almost more selfish motives even.
[0:28:33] JR: Tell me more about that.
[0:28:34] PK: Almost identity, right? This is who I am, and if you can't deal with it, just walk away. I don't want your business. I don't want what you have. It's worth mentioning. I actually know some people that integrate the branding. I call it the branding of Christ crosses, fish, Bible verses into their business branding. It's great because the heart is there behind it. They're deep in relationship. It's not just a sign to slap on.
But even so, I do think that by not branding ourselves as Christian, we have opportunities to connect with more people, because a lot of people would just see that and immediately write us off, which I don't think is fair. I think that's sad about our community. It's Christianity –
[0:29:11] JR: But I think that's real.
[0:29:12] PK: It's real, exactly. People will just look at it and say, especially non-believers, or people don't know Christ, and just say, "No, I want nothing to do with them." That's unfortunate, but it's true. This is where, as you said, the business can't be saved. They can't be saved. Am I a Christian? Absolutely. Do I follow Christ? Absolutely. Does my business? It can't, but I run the business in a way that glorifies Him. I definitely want all people to be drawn to it. My hope is that God uses this business to reach non-believers. Sometimes that's my staff, sometimes that's customers. I want to use this to bless people. And if there's any roadblock in the way, I don't want that.
[0:29:50] JR: Here's the wild thing, Philip. Not only are you reaching more nonbelievers to the business by not being overt and leading with your why on the front end. By the way, to be clear, we're not saying you never mentioned your why. I'm just, saying not leading with it. Here's what's interesting, though. You're also able to recruit more believers, and non-believers alike into God's mission of justice for farmers and those being trafficked. You're donating a lot of money to human trafficking. You're doing justice in a really practical way for farmers. By not leading with your why, you're getting a bunch of non-believers to join you in God's work in the world, right?
[0:30:31] PK: Yeah, absolutely. We've had so many amazing people come to this organization. I know some were believers. I know some were not believers. I don't know where some of them stood. But at the same time, we all do want to see the things that God's heartbeats for. And yes, maybe some of our staff who don't even know that that's the why, the real heartbeat, even though we're pretty open about this stuff. Yes, they're participating in this mission as well. I've seen God do some incredible things with our staff throughout the years. I just want to be faithful to serving them and serving them well. I want to serve our customers well. Absolutely, it's inviting them into this kingdom work as well.
[0:31:08] JR: Yes, that's exactly right. Through God's common grace, we can find common ground with non-believers, if we're not slapping Jesus on every single thing we do publicly. Hey, when I asked in the pre-interview how the gospel shapes how you do what you do, you pointed to the fact that you try to model Jesus' example of servant leadership, which I love. Man, I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever said this on the podcast before, so I might get some hate mail here. I have a love-hate relationship with this term, because it's become such a buzzword in Christian communities, that few people are ever explicit about what it means practically to be a servant leader.
But based on your response, I could tell that you've thought about this deeply. You've got some meat on the bone of this idea. So I want to hear from you, what does it look like practically to be a servant leader at Three Tree? How does that take shape within your day to day of running this business?
[0:32:05] PK: Oh, it's such a great question. I think of a lot of things, how to condense this. I think we have to look practically at Jesus. If he's the exact representation of God and His character, then I think we need to look at Jesus. What did he practically do to serve? One, he did things that were below his title for the sake of his followers. What does that mean for me? Sometimes that means I get down and do the dirty work, I get in the trenches. I still.
It doesn't happen much, because we have three locations, we've got a mobile trolley, coffee trolley. We've got wholesale roasting to lots of businesses, but I still try to take the time every once in a while to just go do a couple of dishes. Just get in, do it, make a drink, help out here and there. I'm happy to get involved in it's a reminder for myself of kind of where we've come. But more importantly, I think it reflects Jesus being willing to lay himself low and not think too highly, and to lift those up around him.
I think that's one way that looks like to practically serve as Jesus practically served by lowering himself for his people. Jesus also served by modeling and coaching. Here's Jesus who is like the master prayer. Is anyone better than praying than Jesus? I mean, he's got to be the most amazing prayer person in the world, right? He never pray. If you look at him praying, read John, what, 13,14, 15, 16? He rarely prayed the same thing twice, or maybe did, but he prayed a lot of things. Yet, when his disciples said, "Teach us how to pray." He gave them a model, and he led by example. He's coaching, he's teaching, he's leading by example.
I think that's a way that I can be a servant leader in my organization as well. Maybe that means that one of my managers is going through a really tough HR situation, and they need my help. I want to be accessible to them. Accessibility, goodness, that's another thing that we see in Jesus. He was accessible to his team, and to his crew. I want to be accessible to my teams. If they call me, I'm going to answer and I'm going to do everything I can to coach them through this scenario. Maybe it's helping coordinate events with my team, because this is new for them, they're struggling with it. Let me show you how, let me coach you, let me model this for you.
Of course, the way this works in a business model kind of looks like a discipleship model, if you think of it. If I'm serving my managers well, I'm asking them to serve the baristas well. All right, now, you need to go serve them, model for them, coach for them, get down in the trenches with them. Then, what are we asking the baristas to do? Do that for the customers. Go serve the customer so well, lift them up, see their interest is bigger than your interests, and you're covered on the back end We're going to care about you as well. That's what I see as a healthy servant leadership model.
[0:34:49] JR: It's really good, man. Thank you for having something to backup what you mean by servant leader. Something that goes deeper, and draws out some distinctions between conventional business wisdom that Christians and non-Christians can get behind. For example, doing work that's beneath your title and station, that's craziness to the world. The world says, delegate everything that you shouldn't be doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Jesus didn't delegate all those things. He did delegate, he did delegate his authority, but he also got down on his hands, and knees, and did the dirty work. Man, that's really, really good.
All right. Beyond servant leadership, what do you think could be different about you, and how you personally lead the business if you are not an apprentice of Jesus Christ?
[0:35:35] PK: This one hits a little bit more emotionally. I could not be a business leader without being an apprentice of Jesus Christ, and this is very much tied into my testimony. Growing up, it's funny, because now, in my role, I'm in front of people a lot, and we have a podcast, and I do some speaking stuff. I never liked that, or wanted that growing up. Honestly, I still don't really like it sometimes.
I was not outgoing growing up, I was not enthusiastic, and I actually had a lot of anxiety growing up. There's reasons for that, that I don't want to share on the recording. But I grew up with lots of anxiety, and I grew up in a great home, but there was just – I just had a lot of anxiety. I just think it's a journey that Christ had me on. I get into college, and I'm always nervous, I'm always fearful. I mean, it just ruled my life. I remember, I was actually at this worship gathering one evening, and the person who was kind of putting on this worship time said, someone is dealing with anxiety here, it's ruling your life. If you don't want it to rule your life anymore, I want you to meet me in this corner, and I want to pray for you. I just knew it was for me. I was like, "Oh my gosh. It rules my life."
I went and he prayed with me. I felt like this tingling sensation in my stomach, which this is getting very emotional and everything. I think God uses emotions, he uses these things, he created them. I mean, it was a 180 turn. I remember the next day, I was talking with this guy who prayed for me, and he said, "God's going to use you to teach and lead.” I literally told him, "You have the wrong guy. You have the wrong guy. That's not me." I think a better way I should have said it is, "That wasn't who I was." But I think I'm someone else now.
I mean, God equipped me for ministry in that moment. I don't know how else to better explain it, because he's used me to teach, and preach in my church. He's used me in this business to lead. He gets all the glory, Jordan. Phillip could not have done this on his own. He gets all the glory. What does it look like apart from Him? It doesn't happen. I'm not a leader, and I'm probably riddled with anxiety and fear of trying to figure out how to please everyone.
[0:37:38] JR: Praise God. There are few things I respect more than people boasting in their weaknesses, like this. Because it is when we do that, that Christ is the hero, and Christ gets greater glory, and talk about an otherworldly quality to promote our flaws, and our weaknesses to the world. That's so countercultural, and I love that you're willing to do that.
Hey, Philip, you know the drill. We wrap up every episode with the same three questions. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? If we opened your Amazon order history, what is showing up over, and over, and over again?
[0:38:18] PK: Yes. Well, I love missionary biographies. Once again, Jesus came in the flesh, and he said, "I'm sending you as I was sent." When I meet missionaries, I'm just so honored and grateful for them literally laying down their life to go out from their culture to another culture for the sake of glorifying God. That to me just always inspires me and is amazing to me. The book that I would recommend, it's called, Evidence Not Seen. It's a book about Darlene Rose. She was a prisoner of war during World War Two in New Guinea. It's honestly not a very easy read. She goes through lots of difficult circumstances, but her constant faithfulness is just so inspiring to me.
We actually named one of our daughters, the middle name is Rose, based off of Darlene Rose, just because of this book. Her story just absolutely moves me and I would encourage everyone to read Evidence Not Seen.
[0:39:13] JR: Given the name of the company, I'm assuming you know this little kids book, The Tale of Three Trees.
[0:39:18] PK: Yes. I have that book. Our kids love it.
[0:39:21] JR: It's a great little book. You guys should check it out, listeners. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?
[0:39:29] PK: Well, I threw this out at the beginning. I am a UGA graduate, and so I'm a fan of the Georgia Bulldogs. Man, I was in school when Mark Richt was the head coach, and I literally saw tangibly the way he was leading that football team. Pay dividends for the Kingdom of God, draw people in to the Kingdom of God. I mean, I would meet football players that came to Christ and were baptized because of him. Man, I would love to see Mark Richt on this podcast sharing more about how he integrated his faith into college sports, which has to be – I mean, it's such a cutthroat industry. I would love to hear more from him.
[0:40:07] JR: Mark and I share an agent. Mark had agreed, maybe I don't know, maybe six months ago or something like that to come on the show. I don't know where that's at. So I'm committing to following up on Mark Richt just for you, Philip Klayman.
[0:40:21] PL: Yes. Oh, I love it.
[0:40:23] PK: I'd be super excited. Do it, Mark, if you're listening.
[0:40:26] JR: Hey, all right. Philip, what's one thing you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off today? This is a global audience of mere Christians, very diverse vocationally. What they share is a desire to follow Jesus fully, and that includes their work. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?
[0:40:44] PK: Yes. I think I just want to reiterate what you brought up earlier, Jordan, and that's the, man, God is in our work. I think that speaks even deeper to how he wants to be involved in our life now. The apostle, John, references all the time how Jesus came in the flesh. He came in the flesh, he came in the flesh, she talks about it. In John, First John, I think he's emphasizing the point here, he dwelt among us. He came, and he was with us. I think it's easy to look at – like you said, to look ahead, and of course, we should hope in the kingdom to come, of course, we should hope for face to face. Of course, we should hope for every tear being wiped from our eyes. We should hope for these things. But man, God wants to come into our lives now, he wants to be in our work. Now, what an amazing God we serve, that he would come join us in our midst.
[0:41:32] JR: Eternity is now in session. Right now. The Kingdom of God is at hand right now. This is not some, yes, the consummation of it comes in full later. The full experience of it comes up later, but it's starting right now. That includes in our work that will continue on for eternity. Philip, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day, for the glory of God and the good of others. Man, you're such a great reminder that all good, God-glorifying work matters for eternity. Man, not all work matters equally for eternity.
Thank you for spending this life in this business in service of others, of your team, your community, but especially the least of these in this world, the poor, those being trafficked around the world. You're such a great example of what this looks like. Guys, I'm serious. I love this cup of coffee. I'm brewing it again tomorrow morning. It's called Three Tree Coffee, you can buy – you can ship all over the place, right, Philip?
[0:42:38] PK: Yes, that's right, all over the US. We've even shipped around the world as well.
[0:42:41] JR: There you go. Threetreecoffee.com. Philip, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.
[0:42:46] PK: Jordan, thank you so much for all you're doing. Appreciate you having me on.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:42:50] JR: Man, I love that episode. Anytime you could pull up a scripture, read a passage and dive deep into it. I'm all about it. Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians Podcast, do me a huge favor. Take 10 seconds right now, and rate this show on a scale of one to five stars on Apple, on Spotify wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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