Brewers, Bankers, & “Guinnesses for God”
Jordan Raynor sits down with Os Guinness, author of The Call, to talk about the surprising friendship between Guinness and William Wilberforce, why a rhythm of “engagement and withdrawal” is a key to redeeming our time, and why Christians should be bold to carry “the future key of history” into our places of work.
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[00:00:00] JR: Before we get to today's episode, a quick announcement. October 19, I'm releasing my next book Redeeming Your Time: Seven Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present and Wildly Productive. But in case you haven't heard, I'm giving you guys an amazing over the top incentive to pre order the book today. I'm giving away a trip for you and the guest of your choice to visit the Holy Land. Here's why. The new book is all about these seven time management principles for the life of Christ that we can see in the gospels, believe it or not.
Essentially, what I've done in this book, is I've taken those seven timeless principles and map them to 31 hyper practical practices, to help you live out those principles today, ensuring that you and I can walk like Jesus walked in the first century, here in the 21st century today. So, I thought, if I'm teaching people how to walk, like Jesus walked, how awesome would it be to send a listener of the podcast to go walk where Jesus walks? That's exactly what I'm doing.
Now, listen, I know many of us are not comfortable traveling internationally right now. That's why I'm giving the winner of this sweepstakes three years to book their trip to Jerusalem. Now, if you're still not comfortable traveling to the Holy Land, I get it. No worries. If you win, you can choose to receive the equivalent cash prize of the trip instead.
Alright, so with all that other way entering to win this trip, or the prize wherever you want, super simple. Step one, go preorder Redeeming Your Time on Amazon or wherever you buy your books. Step two. Go to jordanraynor.com, you'll find a form right there on the website, where you can enter in the number of books you pre ordered, and enter to win the trip. That's it.
Now, here's today's episode.
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:02:12] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christ follower who is pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and routines, how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work.
Today's guests is Os Guinness. He's the author or editor of more than 30 books, including a lot of them that you probably read, The Call, Fools Talk, and Carpe Diem Redeemed. Os is a very prominent social critic. He's addressed audiences worldwide for the British House of Commons, to the United States Congress to the St. Petersburg parliament. Oh, yeah. And he's the great, great, great grandson of one of my heroes, Arthur Guinness, founder of the Guinness Brewing Company.
Os and I sat down recently and had a terrific conversation about the surprising friendship between Arthur Guinness II and William Wilberforce, another one of my heroes that you've probably heard me talk about many times before. Wilberforce, of course, was largely responsible for abolishing the slave trade throughout the British Empire in the 1800s. We also talked about why a rhythm of engagement and withdrawal is a key to redeeming our time. And finally, we had a great conversation about why Christians should be bold to carry, “the future key of history” into our places of work. Please enjoy this conversation with Os. Guinness.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:04:01] JR: Os Guinness, an honor to have you here. Thanks for joining me.
[00:04:05] OG: A great privilege to be with you.
[00:04:07] JR: Yeah. So, let's start here. You're the great, great, great grandson of Arthur Guinness, did I get that right?
[00:04:13] OG: I am. You did.
[00:04:15] JR: Okay. I’m massive fan of Arthur and his contemporary, William Wilberforce, who is our audience probably knows is largely responsible for the abolition of the slave trade in the British Parliament in the early 1800s. I've read biographies on both of these men, and somehow, I've never heard something that you recently mentioned in a video that these guys knew each other, that Arthur Guinness and William Wilberforce knew each other. What's the story behind this relationship?
[00:04:46] OG: Well, actually, it was Arthur number two.
[00:04:50] JR: It was on number two. Okay, interesting.
[00:04:50] OG: It was his son who knew Wilberforce. But Arthur number one, Arthur the first, the first Arthur as we call them in the family, he came to faith through the teaching of John Wesley, in the Irish revival. So, his faith was at the very heart of his business, right the way through his career. His son, the second Arthur, was equally ardent in the faith and he was the one who knew Wilberforce and I love the links between them.
One of my prized possessions, is a beautiful leather-bound book of Wilberforce’s, his best seller. In the front, he signed it. But in the front is a letter chipped in, and he saw a young couple getting married. So, he wrote to them, and he says, “I'd like you to know, the reason behind the big change in my life.” He came to faith. It's clear, the young couple have read it, and they've ticked it and then signed it at the end when they finished it. But once moving to me is it was only three months before Wilberforce died. In other words, he's still fighting for abolition, as you know, is only three days before he died, but at the same time, he's reaching out and sharing his faith.
[00:06:11] JR: I love it. Is the book, his big one, Practical View of Christianity?
[00:06:16] OG: Yes.
[00:06:16] JR: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. I'm curious, was working in the family brewing business ever in the cards for you? Did you ever consider it?
[00:06:24] OG: Not really. No. My great grandfather, he’s Arthur Guinness’ grandson went a different way and our side of the family has done so ever since. In fact, I'm descended from Arthur's youngest son, who was not a good businessman. He went out and fought with the Duke of Wellington, and he was a soldier. Actually, while he was away, the money left him from the brewery was squandered by one of his brothers. So, he came back and didn't have too much. But he wasn’t a gifted businessman, anyway.
[00:06:58] JR: Interesting. So, speaking of vocational choices, one of your great books, obviously is The Call. We talk about this idea of primary and secondary callings. Can you give us a brief definition of these two ideas?
[00:07:13] OG: Well, that's the Reformation distinction. I think it's important. The primary call is by the Lord, to the Lord, for the Lord. In other words, follow me. All right, back to Genesis 12, Abraham, leave where your country culture and kin, and go where I show you. That's the primary called by the Lord, to the Lord. Then everything we do, from then onwards, and the whole of our lives, is done as unto Him. And so, as the Reformation put it, that's our secondary calling.
Now, that's important because the greatness of the Reformation impact was it was work too. In other words, your vocation and vocation and calling in the same. One is Latin and the others Anglo Saxon. Work too became a part of calling. But then, that was so powerful and gave rise, Max Weber thought to modern capitalism, that occupation and vocation became synonymous. And you can see today with people talking about vocational aptitude training and vocations and so on, work has swallowed up calling. So, we got to bring back the primary. There's no calling without a caller and the primary calling is to the Lord and by the Lord.
[00:08:34] JR: Amen. Yeah. You were born in China, two missionary parents, expelled from China to England after the Chinese Revolution and the early ‘50s. You ended up serving as a reporter for the BBC. I'm curious how you came to choose that as one of your secondary callings, if you will. Why that choice?
[00:08:56] OG: That was a long time later. I came to faith at 18 and when I went to university in London, there was a real tension in my life because on the one hand, we had incredibly good teaching in the fellowship at London University and people like John Stott, and Martyn Lloyd Jones, giving us incredible, rich deep blocks of theology. But here we were, the 1960s. Drugs, sex, rock and roll, Fellini, the Free Speech Movement, Ingmar Bergman, you name it. There was no relation to that world at all and it created something of a schizophrenia, which for me was resolved when I met Francis Schaffer and he connected all the dots.
I saw that my faith could be free to think about anything and everything freely. So, that post University time after meeting Francis Schaffer was liberation for me. But then I went to Oxford. I met my wife and in Switzerland at L'Abri. We went to Oxford. I did my D. Phil. It was after that, with many things in between, that I worked for the BBC for a while.
[00:10:10] JR: Why that vocation? What interested you about writing for the BBC?
[00:10:13] OG: Well, the actual job came up almost accidentally. But I've always been fascinated. Before I came to faith, I was interested in the Foreign Office, diplomacy, and representing Britain around the world. And then I came to faith, and understood the notion of calling and had a completely different sense. But part of my calling as it grew, was a sense of trying to make sense of the good news of Jesus to the world, and make sense of the world to people who were interested in living responsibly in it. So, working for the BBC, and reporting on things was absolutely fascinating.
[00:10:57] JR: It's been said before that there's essentially three lines of Arthur the first descendants. There are the Guinness brewers, the Guinness bankers, and the Guinness’ for God. Those who served as preachers and, and missionaries, like your parents. But of course, and this is so prevalent in all your writings, all of these Guinness’, who were faithful followers of the Lord were Guinness’ for God. So, can you help us dismantle this idea that brewing beer and banking and reporting for the BBC can't be done to the glory of God?
[00:11:33] OG: Well, as you know, as I said earlier, the first Arthur was a devout follower of Jesus, and the second and the third, Benjamin. So, there's no question. But at the same time, money can do strange things to you and you can see that the greater the wealth became, and early in the 20th century, the brewery was the largest in the world and the family, one of our family was a second wealthiest man in Europe. There's no question, faith became a little more formal and public and eventually disappeared altogether in one part of the family. When I was at college, there were drug cases and suicides and all sorts of scandals and dark stories. And people talked about the curse of Guinness, which is wrong too. They were just tragedies. But you can see wealth can undermine faith if you're not careful. But my side of the family has kept the faith, thank God.
[00:12:33] JR: Praise God for His grace in that. Os, our listeners know I’m about to release this new book called Redeeming Your Time. One of the first books I read for researching my book was your book, Carpe Diem Redeemed. Can you give us a short summary of that book and why you wrote it?
[00:12:51] OG: Well, I've always been fascinated with time from early childhood in China, and seeing the dramatic crises in history taking place all around me. So, I've been fascinated for a long time. But it was when I understood the differences between the eastern view of cyclical time and the biblical view of covenantal time, and the secularist atheist view of chronological time, a mere succession of moments that I began to see the incredible significance.
One thing I don't have in the book, I've actually got it in the more recent book, is the idea that we all pass through a couple of moments in our lives, even if we're not deeply aware of it. One is very early. When we say, “I am I”, in other words, we’re born with a flooding awareness of oneness with our mother in the womb, of course, and then our families and so on. Then we discover, we're individual people. Too little of that, you have separation anxiety, too much of it, you have narcissism.
The second great moment, equally important, is when much later on you say, “I am I, and I won't be here forever.” Now, the day is coming, when I'm not going to be here and the day is coming, when every trace of me from the earth will have disappeared. So, that gives an incredible sense of, “Well, how am I living now?” I mean, think of the pandemic. I love the fact that as the Jews pointed out, the verse in Ecclesiastes is which comes more than 30 times the vanity of vanities. The Hebrew is actually short breath. You think of the pandemic short, short breath, short, short breath. Life is about a short, short breath.
So, the challenge is always, how are we living, to make the most of this extraordinary life.
[00:14:48] JR: But to do that, you say in the book, hopefully I get the quote roughly right, that if we're going to master time, we've got to know the author of time, what time means, and know the part that God calls us to play in this grand story. You really spend the entire book kind of unpacking that idea. The meaning of time and the part God calls us to play in it. But can you spend a few minutes giving us a synopsis of that here unpacking that idea for us here?
[00:15:16] OG: Well, I don't think we ever do muster time. And one of the points I make is we can conquer space, and occupy it exclusively, but not time. We as, Thomas Hardy says, “A time torn creatures.” Time will eventually master us. We’re mortal. But for me, and it's still a challenge for me in my late 70s, three things in the scriptures are always, almost daily a challenge to me. The first and maybe easiest, is in Chronicles, the men of David who were skilled in reading the signs of the times. We've all got to do that. Our Lord criticized his generation, they could read the weather, meteorology, but they couldn't read the signs in the times. That's one thing.
Then the second and deeper way the Bible puts it is an Acts 13, where you have that incredible statement about King David by Paul. He says, “David, after he’d served God's purpose in his own generation fell asleep.” Now, I think that's absolutely incredible, seeking to understand what God is doing in our time, and then each of us in our small way in our spheres, and our calling, serving God's purpose. In some small way by our faithfulness, and obedience, reading the signs of the times and serving God's purpose as we're able in our generation, we do somehow together, redeem the time. The Lord knows we're in a time, as Paul says, that's evil, and chaotic and confusing, and all sorts of things going on. So, if ever the people of faith follows Jesus, we're called to redeem the time. It's our time.
[00:17:07] JR: Amen. Very well said. You said a couple minutes ago, how in Carpe Diem Redeemed you compared the Judeo-Christian view of time, this covenantal idea of time, versus this Eastern religious idea of time being cyclical. What are the practical ramifications for that? And how we think about stewarding this short breath of a life? How does the Continental view of time, give us hope and practical resources as we seek to steward our time well?
[00:17:38] OG: Well, let me share one that I'm wrestling with this week. And that is the leader of the mythical and the cyclical view of time. The idea that you constantly have disorder, and then some hero overcomes that disorder through his victory, and you have a return to order. The original meaning of the word revolution, was of a celestial heavenly body going round and round and round and going back to where it started from, which of course is cyclical, like much of nature and like much of Hinduism, Buddhism.
But that's not the biblical way. In the Scriptures, we are not just conserving the best. We are conservatives, the best is often lost. So, we want to restore and maintain the best of the past. But the scripture looks forward. I love the fact that many of the rabbi's say, Exodus 3:14 when Moses says, “Lord, what name shall I use of yours to the people?” And the Lord says, “In a way, I'm indescribable. I am who I am.” But as the rabbi's point out, that could equally be translated, “I will be who I will be.” God is always in the future tense. So, we're not only conservatives, we are progressives, right? They understood. And they're always unrealized ideals of freedom and justice and human dignity, et cetera, et cetera, which we haven't seen yet in history. We've talked to Wilberforce incredible what he did in his time, but we're not just trying to return to his time. We're trying to be faithful as followers in our time looking forward. Of course, ultimately, looking forward to the day of the Messiah, when what we can't do, he will do and so on.
So, recapturing that forward thrusting-ness, of a biblical view of time, I think it's incredibly important, because even so I mentioned revival. A lot of Christians look at the mess today and what we need revival and it becomes a kind of return to the past and a kind of security blanket, rather than yes, we do need revival. We, individually and corporately need to repent and go forward. But it's that going forward? We got all the armory of the Lord and all the truths of Scripture, we should be the most progressive, the most confident people thrusting into the future of history. It’s that side of it that I try and recapture.
[00:20:12] JR: Yeah, we should be the most progressive, most forward thinking because we have such a clear vision of what the future is, the Kingdom of God on earth, as it is in heaven. But there's also a deep peace in recognizing that we don't have to finish that work. Ultimately, Christ will finish it at the consummation of heaven and earth, doesn't make give us a deep soul level rest as we toil to reveal the kingdom here now.
[00:20:39] OG: No, absolutely. Know it’s providence is over everything. At best and our highest, our utmost for his highest, we're only Junior partners. So, I love Hebrews 11. We're acting into history, but looking over the edge of history by faith, and it says that the Lord has a city prepared for people who live like that. It's certainly never all up to us. That's the whole point of the Messiah. It will never be affected. We're not wise enough. We're not strong enough. Our impact in history is far too small. Only when the Messiah comes will these dreams be fulfilled in a solid reality.
[00:21:25] JR: It reminds me of maybe my favorite quote from your book. I'm going to read it. It's a little lengthy, but it says, “Success, achievement, fame and legacy are not the goal of those who live by faith. The timeframe of the here and now is too short to be an accurate measure. Men and women of faith act into history.” There, you're alluding to Hebrews 11. “All the time gazing over the edge of the horizon of history, and many times they die with their visions, unfulfilled, their successes incomplete and their legacy unachieved or unclear.”
On the surface, that's depressing, right? It's true, but depressing. But there is great hope. This is going back to the consummation. Yeah, we act in the history, we're all going to die with unfinished symphonies as Carl Raynor said, right? But we as Christ followers have hope, knowing that time is going somewhere, and that Christ alone its going to finish it. Right, Os?
[00:22:21] OG: Absolutely. Now, I first understood that through Reinhold Niebuhr, that word, incomplete. But it's a tremendous stress of our Jewish friends, and you take Moses — called to lead his people to the promised land. And he only sees it and he doesn't cross the river. I used to listen to seminars and Christian preachers and others saying, you get to 50, or 60, or whatever and you've got to start thinking of your legacy. What are you handing on to your children and grandchildren? I thought, that's humanism, that isn't the Christian faith. We've got to come to terms of the fact our lives, they end, but there's no ending. And the dreams of the kingdom coming is not one generation, Moses couldn't do it all. He got them to the edge he didn't get them in, and so on. And we got to come to terms all our lives will be incomplete. It takes generations to do it.
[00:23:23] JR: Here's the piece that I find. Recognizing that I am just one of billions of actors in this grand drama that God doesn't need me to finish my to-do list in order for his purposes to prevail. Moses is such a great example. He didn't need Moses specifically to take his people into the promised land. So, he did it through Joshua. Yeah, he didn't need David specifically to finish building the temple. He finished that work through Solomon. He doesn't need you or me, Os, to finish the work that we're doing in our lives, and there's great freedom in that. Because the pressure to achieve any sort of results is gone. Because at the end of the day, I think it’s Job 42, his purposes will not be thwarted ever. To me, man, there's just great freedom, great peace in great joy and recognizing that and just joyfully partaking in the work that he's doing in the world while he's given me breath in my lungs. I'm thinking a lot about that lately.
[00:24:24] OS: I like the way you put it. You're obviously writing on it too.
[00:24:29] JR: Exactly There you go. Well, listen, very much influenced by you. So, Os, this podcast is really about two things. Number one is what we've been talking about. How does the biblical narrative in general, and the gospel more specifically shaped our work? And then number two, in response to the gospel, how might we better master the crafts, hone our gifts that the Lord has given us to do for His glory and the good of others? You, in my opinion, are unquestionably a masterful writer. You've been practicing this craft for decades. So, from one writer to another, I'm curious, what do you think distinguishes great writing from merely good writing? What's the Delta there?
[00:25:10] OG: Oh, my. I'm not sure I can answer that one. But I would say I am not a great writer. No, it happened. I never said I had to be a writer. I never thought of being a writer. But I became fascinated with trying to understand the times, as I said earlier, and I came over here in 1968, for six weeks, East Coast, West Coast, Harvard, Berkeley. I met Mario Savio, who led the Free Speech Movement, all sorts of characters. I came back and put together a rough series of about 10 talks on the ‘60s, the making of the counterculture. People came up, and said, “You should write this.” I went, “What?” I just shrugged it off time after time and eventually, my old high school teacher heard them and he said, “You should write this.” And with him saying to me, I thought, well, maybe.
So, I had a crack and enjoyed doing it. Nd my first book did extremely well. So, I sort of fell into it accidentally. But let me be very clear, Jordan, I don't consider myself a great writer. It's the message of my case that burns out of me, and I do the best I can. But I don't think I'm a great writer. You've got people like [inaudible 00:26:31] and others who are really stylish writers.
[00:26:32] JR: There’s some interesting advice here, I think, in your vocational path. You didn't set out to write, but you paid attention to what other people were telling you like, “Hey, these talks really should be a book.” I think there's wisdom with that, regardless of what somebody's career is, who's listening to this episode, right? Just being willing to listen, especially to other Christ followers who are filled with the Holy Spirit, who are prodding you and saying, “Yeah, this is the direction you should go.” Looking back, do you think that was wise to follow that path that you did?
[00:27:06] OG: Well, let me be clear, when I came to faith 1960, it was almost explicit, it was certainly implicit. I remember John Stott agreeing with me on this and he'd come to faith a generation before me and he felt the same thing. If you were all out for Jesus, you are a minister, a missionary, or an evangelist. I was all here for Jesus. So, I had to burn my way through each of those three, until I realized they were not me. And then mercifully, someone gave me a Xerox copy of William Perkins: A Treatise on Calling (A Treatise on Vocations), a 16th century book. It completely opened my eyes to what calling was. That was back in the ‘60s.
So, I had to fight my way out of the wrong ideas. And then, of course, what was my calling? I had no idea. Because the things I've been pursuing clearly weren't. So, I fell into writing. Yes, looking back, I mean, I went to an English boarding school. There were no multiple-choice questions and exams, everything except mathematics was an essay form. So, I'd written written, written, from the youngest age at school is six. So, it seemed natural. Now, I had to fight my way out of what you might call the Oxford way of writing with long paragraphs –
[00:28:32] JR: Right. Very wordy writing.
[00:28:35] OG: But I do love writing and I’ve always love words. I love theater. I love great acting, and Shakespeare and so on. I don't claim to be a great writer. I’m not an intellectual either, always make clear. I’m not an intellectual, I’m not a scholar, and I'm not a great writer. The message burns out.
[00:28:54] JR: There you go. You're growing up in the faith amongst these giants, Martin Lloyd Jones, John Stott, you got some bad theology of, if you really loved Jesus, you got to go be a missionary, “full time missionary”. What was the impact for you when you read something like what you read from Perkins, and recognizing that all work can be done at the glory of God, what changed in you when you started to grasp those ideas?
[00:29:20] OG: Well, I've got a chapter in my book, the call, everyone, everywhere, and everything. And the story I use is William Wilberforce, a friend of the family. You remember, came to faith in his early 20s and he'd lived as he said, whoring, clubbing, gambling. And then he was a follower of Jesus and thought, “Well, I better leave what I'm doing politics and become a minister.” And thank God john Newton, the minister said to him, “For heaven’s sake, don't.” And he stayed where he was, prayed and thought and two years later, wrote down what I recon is the greatest and most audacious personal mission statement in history.
“God Almighty has set before me to grade objects or suppression of the slave trade, and the reformation of manners,” and it was stories like that, and seeing the profound impact. I mean, it's highly controversial. But if you look at Max Weber's idea, that calling gave rise to modern capitalism. I think he got it slightly wrong the way he said it, but calling gave rise to the dynamism of everyone, everywhere and everything. And I love that.
[00:30:34] JR: Yeah. The very first chapter of Redeeming Your Time, it's all about Wilberforce. I talked about the great change. His conversion, I think it was 26, 27, something like that. And I tell the Newton story, but thank God, that John Newton was there telling Wilberforce not to change his work in Parliament, but to radically change his relationship to his work. I would argue, you know, looking at Wilberforce’s story, there are really two big changes that happened post conversion. Number one, got really clear on what his great object was in Parliament, the abolition of the slave trade and the reformation of manners, and he also got hyper intentional about stewarding his time and his wealth, wisely, right. He got really intentional about redeeming his time. In your book, in Carpe Diem Redeemed, you argued that Sabbath is, “a key to redeeming the time”. I'm curious how so? Where's the connection there for you?
[00:31:35] OG: Well, Sabbath in the Scripture is not just stopping work. It is that cessation, but it's connected with the praise of the Lord for creation. And so, I love the fact of the rhythm. People say we should re-monk, the church. I would say, no, our Lord was engaged and then withdrew up a mountain across the lake. And you have an incredible rhythm of engagement, and withdrawal. In the same way, six days of hard work, and then one day of stopping, and remember, yes, we're creators, but sub creators as Lewis put it, but we’re created. On the Sunday, we stand back from our work, and from everything like that, and realize it's not all up to us. We're created, and we're creatures, and we need to worship the one is our Creator. So, I love that rhythm of work, and rest, and working and refreshment rather than the drivenness that so many Americans have.
[00:32:40] JR: It's also this rhythm not just of see, seen, but also feasting on the Lord's good gifts, his word, fellowship with other believers. I think a lot of times in the church, I knew growing up, I had this view of Sabbath, the Sabbath is this day filled with things you can't do, rather than a day to just enjoy what the Lord has already provided you. Where strivings can cease, as Keith and Kristyn Getty say, striving ceased, I can to joy what already is, what God has already provided. I think we've missed out on that in our modern construct of Sabbath.
So, for you, how do you feast what is feast? What does feasting look like on Sabbath for you?
[00:33:24] OG: Well, everything's been knocked for six by COVID and the Coronavirus. I’m not feasting on the Sabbath quite the normal way. Yeah, but my wife and I are members of a fellowship group and we meet on Sunday night. We met by Zoom during COVID. But we always share a meal and share fellowship, and then worship and pray together.
[00:33:47] JR: Os, in this season of life. I'm curious what your day looks like. How do you steward your time on a daily basis from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed?
[00:33:55] OG: Well, I always have a wonderful cup of coffee with my beloved wife and then we pray for the day and then we go to our own times of personal worship. And then I move into – depends what the day holds, by moving usually, it's the things that have to be attended to like emails and all that nonsense. And then either speeches I've got to give or things like that and foundations or committees downtown or in other parts of the country. Or more ideally, I have the afternoon to write and I love writing. So, my day is filled with too much of the office type of stuff.
[00:34:41] JR: But you write in the afternoon, that's interesting to me. Is there a reason for that?
[00:34:44] OG: I write in the morning. I write anytime I can. If I have the time only in the afternoon because it sometimes takes the morning to clear off some of the nonsense that has to be tackled.
[00:34:56] JR: Yeah. I hear you. I thought the quotes, you have pages, and pages, and pages of quotes at the very beginning of Carpe Diem Redeemed, which frankly, I think the quotes alone are worth the price of admission of the book. I used a bunch of them.
[00:35:10] OG: That was my idea.
[00:35:10] JR: Was that your idea?
[00:35:13] OG: No, I'm not the greatest writer in the world. But when you come to time, the things people have said from all sorts of different angles, serious, funny, deep, shallow, it just –I think you're right. Just read that, the quotes alone and think deeply about time.
[00:35:32] JR: It was great. One of the ones I really loved, I never heard before is from John Lennon. He said, “The happiest people are those who are been more times a week than anybody else.” I'm curious. How if at all, do you practice simply being, Os?
[00:35:50] OG: Well, John Lennon, I think those are other Eastern idea.
[00:35:52] JR: It is, yeah.
[00:35:54] OG: I have no desire to do that having grown up in the east, and I studied under a guru in my 20s. So, I have absolutely zero interest in sort of present mindfulness in that sort of sense. But clearly the past, the present and the future. And the part that we usually miss is the present, enjoying the moment, the beauty right in front of us, whether it's flowers, or the textures, something sent to us or listening to music or whatever. In other words, it's capturing the present that is often missed when we're thinking too much about the past or more likely constantly worrying about the future. So, the present is incredibly important for all of us to enjoy it before the Lord. Today is what matters to live faithfully and obediently to the Lord, not yesterday, and not tomorrow. Important, though they are.
[00:36:50] JR: That's really good. Os, three questions I love to ask as we wrap up every conversation. Number one other than your own, which books do you recommend or gift most frequently?
[00:37:03] OG: Oh, my. People who love to share the faith as I do. I challenge them to read Blaise Pascal, Pensées. Because I think too much of our persuasion and apologetics has got hijacked by the Greeks and by Aristotle, and Aquinas, and William Lane Craig and people like that. We've come a long way from the biblical view. I think Pascal captures something that's much more biblical and Jewish than truly Christian. So that's one.
[00:37:37] JR: That’s a good answer.
[00:37:38] OG: I've mentioned him several times in my recent books, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. I encourage people to read his series. It's called Covenant and Conversation on the five books of the Torah, the first five books in the Bible. Covenant and Conversation, Genesis, the book of beginnings, Exodus, the book of redemption, and so on. Because he has opened my eyes to those books far more than any Christian commentary I've read. My whole understanding of the Scripture, my view of the world has been expanded enormously.
But generally, I say to people, and one answer to what you're saying is, I never mentioned the same book to everyone. Now, as people are on a journey. You mentioned a book this year, might turn them off completely. Next year, they'll lap it up, it’s exactly where they are. I'm very, very wary of reading lists. I don't give a reading list.
[00:38:42] JR: Yeah, that's wise. I like these answers.
[00:38:44] OG: Get something that fits where they are today.
[00:38:50] JR: That’s good. Os, who would you most like to hear maybe on this podcast, maybe not, but having a conversation about how the Christian faith influences the work they do in the world?
[00:39:02] OG: I'm not sure I can answer that one. I think maybe, I just like to hear practitioners, those who've wrestled with this or lawyers who wrestled it and so on, rather than people like me, or theologians or whatever. In other words, the practitioners who've done a great job.
[00:39:25] JR: That's why it's very rare that we have the Os Guinness’ and the Tim Keller's of the world on the podcast. We talked mostly with CEOs and we had a carpet drawn recently, and that's what we're really interested in. Alright, Os, what's one thing from our conversation over the last hour do you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off? Again, this is an audience of Christ followers, who believed that the work that they do in the world matters greatly to the Lord to others. What do you want to leave them with?
[00:39:54] OG: Well, my last book, latest book, Magna Carta of Humanity, argues that the Sinai revolution is the one and the future, key to freedom. Now, as you don't understand the American Revolution at its best, unless you understand Sinai, Deuteronomy, but that's only half the story. So many Christians today are demoralized, discouraged. They're aware of the scandals, the divisions, the defections, the so-called deconstructions, and de-convert, all that nonsense. So everywhere you go in this country, you find Christians demoralized.
But the simple fact is, the gospel is good news. It's the best news ever. And we've got to see the whole of Scripture, human dignity, the solid view of truth, the rich view of words, and the day of the social media. Freedom with the champions and defenders of freedom. Justice, our view of justice is infinitely better than the radical left. In other words, in the scriptures are Jewish friends, and we as followers of Jesus, we have the future key to history, and humanity. We’ve got to move out with that sort of confidence, and boldness. This is a civilizational moment, and we mustn't mess it.
[00:41:19] JR: Very, very well. Sad. I love that. We hold the future key of history. Really well said. Os, I just want to commend you for the exceptional and important work you've been doing for decades to help us see how our work contributes to God's redemptive purposes in the world. Thank you for helping us better understand the author of time, the meaning of time, our role in it. And on a personal note, again, thank you for choosing to write Carpe Diem Redeemed. Like I said, it was so helpful as I was writing my own book.
Hey, you guys could find all of Os' work at osguinness.com. Os, thanks again for joining us.
[00:41:56] OG: A real privilege. Thanks for having me on. God bless.
[OUTRO]
[00:42:00] JR: I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. Hey, if you want a lot more William Wilberforce and a lot more as Guinness, it’s chapter one of Redeeming Your Time, chock full with Wilberforce stories and these five biblical truths about time and productivity that really map out chapter one of the book. A lot of that was influenced by Os and his work and Carpe Diem Redeemed.
Remember, if you preorder the book, it comes out on Tuesday, October 19. But if you preorder it right now, you could enter to win a trip to the Holy Land, or the equivalent cash prize of the trip. Step one, go preorder the book Redeeming Your Time on Amazon or wherever you buy your books. Step two, go to jordanraynor.com, fill out the form right there and you could be entered to win. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to The Call to Mastery this week. I'll see you next time.
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