How to find joy in your job regardless of circumstances
How to practically find joy in your job regardless of circumstances, 5 options for a “joyful purpose” for your work, and Neal’s #1 tip for finding peace amidst the chaos of your work.
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[00:00:04] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of Mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as biologists and butchers and legal clerks? That's the question we explore every week and today I'm posing it to my friend, Neal Samudre. He's the CEO and co-founder of Enjoyco, an emotional health and wellness company, and the author of a great new book that I was honored to endorse called, Start from Joy. It's the perfect topic to kick off this New Year.
Neal and I talk on this episode about how practically you can find joy in a job regardless of your circumstances. We talked about the five options of a joyful purpose that aligns with God's word for your work. Neal shared his number one tip right at the top of this episode for finding peace in your work amidst the chaos. I loved this episode. I think it's going to be super helpful to you. Please enjoy this conversation with Neal Samudre.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:24] JR: Neal, my friend. Finally, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:28] NS: I am so stoked to be here, Jordan.
[00:01:31] JR: Well, especially because you were like dying yesterday.
[00:01:35] NS: Yeah. This isn't the best time I was sick for a few days with hand foot and mouth. Not a fun sickness, but praise be to God. I am well enough to come on this show and talk about joy.
[00:01:52] JR: All right, so we are going to talk about joy today. How do you find joy when your children give you hand foot and mouth? Let's get real nitty-gritty, practical, are you joyful this morning? Because you're one of the most joyful people I know, you’re like genuinely joyful today.
[00:02:09] NS: I am genuinely joyful, because I woke up today and I didn't have a fever. I didn't have crazy rashes or blisters on my hand feed or mouth. So I was like praise God. He's doing work.
[00:02:26] JR: All the parents who have young kids who have had young kids, who have gone through this. I'm like cringing with you right now. This is like the worst sickness. Like, anytime I read about leprosy in the Bible like the closest I could think of is hand foot and mouth, which obviously isn't nearly that bad, but it's pretty bad.
[00:02:45] NS: I didn't know adults could get it.
[00:02:46] JR: I didn't know either. Until recently, a friend of mine, a friend of mine got it. It was like it was the worst thing in the world. Hey, so curious, speaking of joy. You're running this company called Enjoyco. You just released a book about joy. What led you to this lane? Why is this the thing that you're sinking your teeth into? What's the backstory there?
[00:03:08] NS: Yeah. So there's a lot of depth and meaning to why I'm doing what I'm doing today. The short part of it is that several years ago, I was studying positive psychology, because I'm a nerd that. I geek out on emotional health and positive psychology, after a few years of studying this, I brought it to my wife, who's a therapist, and I was like, “We should start a company together. That is Emotional Health and Wellness Company that takes everything that I've studied about positive psychology and everything you know about therapy and combine it together to create an enjoyable therapy experience.” You see at Enjoyco we really want to help people enjoy positive change.
People when they try to go about positive change in their life, it's always hard, and boring, and they just don't engage with it long enough to see lasting results. So we wanted to change that by providing therapy experience that really makes it more simple, practical and engaging so that they can find lasting results. So that was the idea we started Enjoyco with. Here's the company, but I will say this, as I've started Enjoyco with my wife and we've just seen chains being broken in the therapy room. We do coaching and corporate wellness, as well. As we see these chains being broken, I had to find deep meaning in it, because growing up, I lived in an unhealthy household full of domestic abuse and it was very chaotic and violent and a lot of that was just because our family unit was not healthy.
We struggle like my family struggled with mental health issues and emotional health issues. I just have seen the damage that that can do in children's life and families lives. So the work we're doing inside Enjoyco we're really interrupting that, we're breaking those patterns. We're really partnering with God to do the work.
[00:05:32] JR: I want to go a little deeper there, because anytime I hear the term positive psychology, I cringe a little bit inside, because I think a lot of what's out there in the world in this lane is very contradictory to the Gospel, right? A lot of the positive psychology stuff is like, “Hey it doesn't matter what your parents thought of you. It doesn't matter what the world thinks about you. Like, you are the judge of you.” It's like, that's what Paul said, right? Paul's like, “Hey, listen. I don't care what you think about me, but I also don't care about what I think of me either. I think about what Christ thinks of me.” How do you think the gospel enables you to approach this space in a unique way, Neal?
[00:06:15] NS: Absolutely. I do agree with you. Like, you have to take the good from positive psychology and leave the bad –
[00:06:23] JR: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot we can – yes.
[00:06:25] NS: Yeah. Really what I believe is that, it's not all up to us. The way that the gospel impacts what we do is that we're able to release our clients to God for him to do the work. I think that's something unique that we do, is that we don't say that we're the saviors of our own life, and that we can arrive upon healing or that it's all up to us to be happy and find joy. Every morning, I pray a prayer of release, where I release all of our clients. I release the business decisions. I release my family to God, because really, at the end of the day, it's up to him to provide the work and the transformation. Positive psychology, it says that we can be the saviors of our own life if we study, or if we have the right research that we can stumble into happiness, and we just don't really believe that.
[00:07:35] JR: Yeah, amen. I mean, this is – I love this. Like something really practical for our listeners to take away this prayer of release, regardless of your work. It's a really practical expression of Deuteronomy eight, I think it's verse 18, where it says, “Remember, the Lord your God for it is he, who gives you the ability to produce wealth or produce anything.” Produce positive change, right? All of this is in the Lord's hand, every positive result? Every good gift, as James says, is coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no shifting shadow, right? All of it is him. So by praying that prayer, you're releasing yourself of the results of the work. Right, Neal?
[00:08:16] NS: Yeah. I will say this. This is my number one tip for peace, because what disrupts peace, and what gives us an anxious spirit is believing that it's all up to us. So you have a ton of listeners who might believe that everything in my job is all up to me or everything with my family is all up to me. By praying this prayer of release, this is how I cast my anxieties on him, because he cares, right? Because I remind myself like, it's not all up to me. It's up to God.
[00:08:56] JR: Amen. Amen. Really well said. Hey, so we're releasing this at the start of the New Year. People are heading back to work, after the holidays. This new book Start from Joy that you're releasing. I think it's really interesting. You argue that a lot of our issues with work and lack of joy in work, stem from an unhealthy emotional relationship with work. What do you mean by that?
[00:09:22] NS: Yeah. Here's the thing, then number one premise of our book is that you cannot create lasting positive change without healthy emotional living. So a lot of people when they go about positive change, whether it's getting healthy, getting out of debt or getting a promotion, anything at work. A lot of what people do is from a place of shame, guilt and fear. This is that –
[00:09:52] JR: Give me an example. Give me an example.
[00:09:54] NS: Yeah. So a person might believe that they are not enough. They're operating from a place of shame. So they might make decisions and actions where they're trying to earn their own worthiness at work. What happens, another example, a person might fear that they are going to lose their job or fear about the future of their job, or entrepreneurs like me, might fear what will happen with their business. This creates a spirit of anxiety. So they respond to that anxiety, that fear in a way where they make compromising decisions that were made out of haste. They might pursue an action of overworking.
We've worked with a lot of clients at Enjoyco, because they have this residual shame and fear in their life. They participate in overworking behaviors. They can't stop or if they can't let it go. They can't put it down.
[00:11:03] JR: It’s all up to them.
[00:11:04] NS: Because it's all up to them. So this is why we say that you cannot create lasting positive change without healthy emotional living. Whatever positive and change endeavor you set about in your life, you have to heal that underlying shame, guilt, fear, anxiety, if you want to create lasting results, because here's the thing. You stick to the things you enjoy. So if you start from a place of joy, you're able to stick to the actions that will enable you to create lasting results. That's where the term Start from Joy comes from. Instead of starting from a place of shame, guilt, and fear, it's all about healing those patterns, so that you can Start from Joy and create fulfilling lasting results.
[00:11:53] JR: This is good. All right, so talk to, let's say, an entrepreneur who's listening. How does that founder? How does she repair some of those unhealthy emotional relationship she has with life in general works specifically, what does that process look like?
[00:12:11] NS: Yeah. So in our book Start from Joy, we have seven principles that help you engage this work. I'm just going to tease a little bit of that.
[00:12:19] JR: Sure. Yeah.
[00:12:21] NS: There's one principle in our book that's all about challenging false scripts. I think this is, if people read our book, this is the number one thing I want them to walk away with. False scripts are those narratives you have about your life, about where you will find joy and happiness. A lot of people, whenever they go about positive change, they might believe, I will be happy once I make X amount of dollars. I will be happy once the business is able to run without me. I will be happy once I start this business or once I leave my job to start this business. What that does is that that puts a joy and happiness off into the future. You can't start from joy today, if joy is conditional upon something changing in your external world.
Part of the work that we have to do is we have to question and challenge. What did I get these beliefs from? What are their origins? So for me, as I said about building a business in the past, I was building my business to be a vehicle to prove my worth in the world. This was the past, I had shame in my life. I thought, I will be happy once I have a successful business because then I could undo the shame I have in my life, but I had to get clear on, where did that shame come from? Really that shame came from a lot of my upbringing and trauma, but also for your listeners.
If you have or if you notice shame, guilt and fear, impacting the decisions and actions you're making at your job, in your business. You can get clear about what false script is producing that shame, guilt and fear by looking at your family of origin, looking at culture like what does culture say about what it means to find happiness and success? Looking at the media like, what does media say? What do your social groups say about where to find happiness, joy and success? Also, how was trauma impacting your definitions of happiness? That was what I landed on for me is that I had trauma in my life that produced this shame in me, that led to me putting too much of my value and worth in my business.
I was putting too much pressure on my business. If my business had a setback or if I experienced a failure at even a job I had. Then that said too much about me, my happiness, my joy was chained to the successes and failures of what I did at work. So for your listeners, just think about what false scripts do I have about where I will find happiness and joy? Where did I learn this from? How can I start to challenge that? You can challenge that with the truth of the gospel.
[00:15:51] JR: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up, because that's where I was going. So you know a bit of my story. We've known each other for a few years. My story is very similar to yours, right? Like, early in my career work was a means, I would never use this language, but this is what was going on in my heart, right? I used work as a tool to prove to the world that I was better than my peers that I was special – I hate admitting this, right. This is very ugly, but this is very true. Like, this is what was going on in my heart of hearts. That was rooted in a lot of shame. It wasn't until I read, basically, read Keller, and really, I think saw the gospel for the first time. I think it was probably a believer before that, right? But like, really understood the depth and the breadth of the gospel. So for us specifically, what scriptures have you latched on to throughout the years to replace that false script of, I need to use my work to prove to the world that I'm worthy.
[00:16:52] NS: Yeah. First off, I will say this. The Gospel, it allows me to lead and build this business from the position and posture of a son.
[00:17:02] JR: Yeah.
[00:17:03] NS: You see a son. They can never do anything to mess up and fall out of grace of a perfect a father. I have my son, Jude, and there's nothing he can do to ever fall out of my love. So it's that way, in this earthly relationship, then it's that way, in the heavenly relationship with us in God. So one scripture that really stands out to me is when Jesus is baptized, right at the beginning of His ministry, and the skies open up, and God says, “This is my son. Who am I am well please.” That speaks to me, because Jesus didn't do his ministry yet. This was right at the start of his work. He didn't do anything big and glorious in the world. He didn't earn love. This was right at the beginning. That's something, I really hold on to. Like, there's no way I can earn God's love like I'm a son. I already have his love. So a lot of what I tried to do in my business is that I tried to lead my business. I tried to lead my family. I tried to go about my relationships from the posture of a loved son.
[00:18:33] JR: Yeah. It's the difference between doing the work for God's favor, and from God's favor in this position of sonship. I think about Matthew 3:17 all the time. This verse you just referenced to what Father speaking over the sun. It is one of the passages I go to, to change that script, that false script, if you will. Nicolas Keller, for the first time that helped me realize that for those of us who are in Christ. The Father, we can imagine the Father speaking those same words over us, right? We are the son or daughter in whom he is well pleased, simply because we are clothed in Christ, right?
We are wearing the righteousness of Christ. It's really beautiful. I'm assuming that the sign of an emotionally healthy relationship with work then is really being able to find joy, regardless of the circumstances. Is that where you're where you're landing this. You said being emotionally unhealthy is putting joy in the future is the signs of emotional health, being able to find joy right now, regardless of circumstances, Neal?
[00:19:44] NS: Absolutely. Yeah. You hit the nail on the head there.
[00:19:48] JR: I mean, this is Paul talking to Philippians four, right? This is, I can do all things through Him. It gives me strength, which is really in the context of contentment. Paul say and I can be content in all things through Him, it gives me strength, but that's the sign. I'm curious. I use this image in the book that I've used in a lot of my writing. This spectrum, right, where on the left side, we find people who view their work as a meaningless means to an end, right? On the right side, we find people who view their work as having ultimate meaning. That's the ditch that you and I have been tempted to fall into, but how does God's word keep us from the other ditch, Neal? How do we not fall into the other ditch of our work is just a means of acquiring a paycheck?
[00:20:34] NS: Yeah. One thing we have to realize is that work accounts for 90 about 90,000 hours of our life. So if it accounts for this big portion of our life, God has, there's a purpose for that, right? Like, we see in the garden, God gave us work before the fall. God does work in our work. So when we think about the spectrum on that left side, people might view work as a means to an end. Then on that right side, people view work as everything. In the middle is where you find emotional health with your work.
This is where you can detach enough from work to where it doesn't provide everything for you in terms of your worth in value in the world, but you can also find deeper purpose in your work. So you're partnering with God and doing good work in the world. You don't view it as meaningless as the thing that you do just to get a paycheck, but you also don't view it as being the vehicle for your self-worth, as being the thing that will undo your shame, guilt and fear. You're able to helpfully detach from it enough, to where you can do your best work. Really, the gospel is what keeps us in that healthy center.
[00:22:13] JR: I agree. Anytime I think about the spectrum, Ephesians, 2:8-10 is what comes to mind to keep me in the middle of that road, right? Verses eight through nine is the essence of the gospel is by grace, you have been saved, not by work so that no one can boast, right? We did nothing to earn God's love, there's nothing we could do to lose it or earn any more of it. We are adopted children of the king. Regardless of whether or not we're a CEO or janitor, right? Regardless of if I hit all my goals for 2023 or none of them, right? Then Paul goes on to say in verse 10, okay, so great, you've been saved not by your works, but you have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do and my listeners are probably sick of me talking about this. That Greek word for good works that Paul uses, his Aragon, which literally means work, task, and employment, right?
We haven't been saved by our good works, but we have been saved for good work, task and employment that brings glory to God. It's the same word Jesus used in Matthew 5:16, where he says, “So that they may see your good works Aragon and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” So works a good thing, but only Jesus is an ultimate, right? That's the truth that keeps us in the middle of the road.
Neal, I can hear some of our listeners saying, “Okay, Neal, Jordan, I get it. I get everything you're saying. I know this in my head. God has saved me for good works. I'm starting 2023 I still don't love my job, right? Talk to them for a minute, Neal. You've talked about starting from joy instead of making joy something out in the future. Talk a little bit more practically about how we get there, especially in our work. We talked about challenging false scripts. What else do we need to do to start with joy today as we start the new year?
[00:24:05] NS: One thing that we talk about in our book is the concept of a joyful purpose. Then joyful purpose is really that exciting motivation for change. I think people if they hate their job or they don't enjoy their work, they need to really spend some time sitting in a quiet place and reflecting on, why does God have me here? What about that excites me? What is that authentic like important and motivational reason why I am here in this job? I think we just need more clarity around the bigger purpose, because the problem that I see a lot of people have when they don't enjoy their job is that they don't spend a lot of time thinking about their job, because their job is such a drudgery that anytime they are outside of work, they don't think about work. They don't reflect on it.
I think we just have to allow ourselves the space in the stillness to reflect deeply about, why does God have us here? What is the bigger purpose? I think that is one thing that I will empower your listeners with. Also another thing too, this is the last principle we talked about in our book, was the idea of making it fun, making it fun. Fun and play is a big part of joy. It’s what people often think about when they think about joy. We have to be intentional about creating play and fun in our lives. So a lot of people, they might have resigned to their job to just be a drudgery and meaningless, right.
I will encourage them to think about what are ways you can make your job fun. It might be something as simple as listening to your favorite playlist as you're doing your job or it could be something like investing in relationships at your job that you find enjoyable and doing work together. I think as we become more intentional about adding more fun, and play into our jobs, it will be easier to draw out joy from where we are in our jobs.
[00:26:41] JR: This is really good, really good. Go back to what you said before. I think this is so simple, but really profound. Making the time and the quiet space to define a joyful purpose for your work, Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers said, “Just be quiet and think. It'll make all the difference in the world.” It’s like so true. Listen. If you're listening to the Mere Christians Podcast, you've heard lots of different options of what that joyful purpose can be. There are lots of different ways that our work matters to God. I think some of those ways are going to resonate more with you than with another listener.
I think looking at that menu of options, and saying, “Okay, Lord, which one of these really stirs up my heart? Which one of these is really going to give me sustainable joy and purpose in my work is a really good exercise.” Just to be real explicit, if you're listening like, “Okay, Jordan. I want to do this right now, what's the menu of options?” There's just a few. Scripture makes clear that your work is how God answers the prayers of others. Yes, number one. People are praying for food right now, you’re in a restaurant. You're a part of the means by which God is feeding the world, just serving the basic needs and loving your neighbor as yourself. That's number one.
Number two, your work is a means of bringing God eternal pleasure. I quote Psalm 37:23 all the time on this podcast, “God sees every deed delights in every detail the lives of the godly.” Menu option number two, right? Menu option number three. Your work is a means of acquiring eternal rewards. Scripture is abundantly clear about this. Number four, we talk about Isaiah 60, all the time in this podcast. Your work if you create physical things have the chance of physically lasting for eternity, if done in accordance with God's commands. I'll just give one more a fifth menu options. This is not an exhaustive list. Your work is a means of making disciples.
[00:28:39] NS: Yes.
[00:28:40] JR: I was just reading this great book called evangelism in the early church. It's super academic, most of you will hate it, but it is good and great. 80% of church growth in the first three centuries, it did not come through pastors and donor supported missionaries. It came through Mere Christians as true then it's going to be true for the foreseeable future. We just had Tim Keller on the podcast talking about that. So those are just five things to consider as you do what Neal's encourage you to do, just sit quietly on a Saturday morning, take a half a Saturday, and go to find the joyful purpose that most resonates with you in this new year.
[00:29:22] NS: I want to add to that. You see, we are in the New Year, right now. So I encourage people to take advantage of these time landmarks. Things like birthdays, the end of the year, holidays, these times where life is in this in between state, right? Take advantage of these times to sit and reflect. That's what I'll encourage people to do.
[00:29:50] JR: It’s good. These are like dates are like largely arbitrary, but we do interpret them as significant. So like, let's take advantage of that. Hey, in the book you talk about “biblical joy in the workplace” How does biblical joy differ from the way the world defines joy?
[00:30:05] NS: Yeah. The world defines joy, largely from a sense of just play, and fun. If you look at all the media that exists about joy from the secular sense, it only emphasizes the play and the fun, but then the biblical joy. You start to see people like Paul in Philippians. He talks about joy, but there was nothing about his circumstances that were conducive to having joy. So you see in the Bible, that joy is anchored in hard things.
There is this gladness that is inspired from having a greater purpose and hope. That's just not present in the secular definition of joy. So our definition of joy that we came up with in the book is the internal gladness, inspired by purpose, hope and delight. There is that element of fun and play that delight, but the reason you're able to have joy in hard times is because we have this greater hope that everything will turn out in our lives. We have this greater purpose that everything is for the gospel.
[00:31:29] JR: Yeah. Is this greater purpose that's rooted in service to others above my own personal happiness.
[00:31:35] NS: Yes.
[00:31:36] JR: Hey, Neal. We wrap up every conversation the same way. Three questions. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others these days?
[00:31:48] NS: Gosh, other than Redeeming Your Time.
[00:31:52] JR: I like that answer.
[00:31:53] NS: I mean, I’m serious. I recommend Redeeming Your Time to everyone.
[00:31:57] JR: Oh, you’re kind. That’s all.
[00:31:59] NS: I will also say – I do recommend Ruthless Elimination of Hurry a lot. I think one of the ways or one of the things that gets in our way of emotional health today is our sense of busyness and being unable to slow down. I really recommend that book to people.
[00:32:20] JR: It's good.
[00:32:20] NS: I also recommend Essentialism by Greg McKeown.
[00:32:23] JR: Yeah.
[00:32:23] NS: I love that book. Yeah. I think those are the two books.
[00:32:27] JR: That’s a heck of a lineup.
[00:32:29] NS: Yeah.
[00:32:29] JR: It's a heck of a lineup. I like that a lot. Hey, who do you want to hear in this podcast talking about how the gospel should shape the work of Mere Christians?
[00:32:37] NS: I recently saw Black Panther two.
[00:32:42] JR: Yeah.
[00:32:43] NS: Wakanda Forever. This might sound so silly, but I would love to hear. I believe Letitia Wright is Christian, right.
[00:32:52] JR: Yeah. I've heard that. Yes. Yeah.
[00:32:56] NS: Yeah. It'd be awesome for her or I don't know if Michael B. Jordan is a Christian, but –
[00:33:03] JR: I don't know. I've never heard rumors one way or another on Michael B. Jordan, but I really like Letitia Wright as an answer. It's great answer.
[00:33:10] NS: Here you go –
[00:33:10] JR: Feelers, so I always have my like Hollywood contacts that I text after answers like this. I'm like, “Hey, who knows Denzel? Who know, Leticia?” We get some good lines in the water there. All right, Neal, talking to an audience of Mere Christians, very diverse, vocationally. What they share is a desire to do their work with excellence in a way that honors the Lord. What's one thing from our conversation, you want to reiterate to the audience before we sign off?
[00:33:41] NS: Challenge those definitions for happiness and joy. If there's any belief that you have, that is putting joy and happiness off into the future, get clear about that, because here's the thing with the gospel and how it impacts the work of Mere Christians. Through the Holy Spirit, we have joy on this side of heaven. We have joy. It's these patterns in our thinking, our beliefs that are causing it, us to put it off into the future. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit. I think we have to just be really intentional of what are those beliefs that are causing me to not believe that or causing me to not take hold of that promise in my life?
[00:34:35] JR: Amen. First Thessalonians 5:19. “Paul commands his readers not to quench the spirit.” Right? Those false grips and a lot of other things are quenching the joy that we have. Neal, I want to commend you for doing the hard work, excellent work to help us rewrite those scripts, to help us start from a place of joy. Thank you for reminding us that the gospel is the answer or the Gospels what keeps us in the middle of this road to have an emotionally healthy relationship with work. Thank you for writing this book. I love this book. I was honored to endorse it. Guys, the book is out now. It's called Start from Joy, by my friend Neal Samudre, please go pick it up. Neal, thanks for hanging out with us today. Appreciate it, man.
[00:35:17] NS: Thanks for having me.
[00:35:19] NS: What a great way to kick off the New Year. I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hey, if you did. Do me a quick favor. Take 30 seconds and go leave a one to five star rating of the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify wherever you listen to the Mere Christians Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
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