God of the pits and the palaces
Jordan Raynor sits down with Nate Knapper, Founder of The Joseph Project, to talk about the time I lied to President George W. Bush’s face, how Joseph’s story reveals a God of the pits and the palaces, and why the never-ending work is more inspiring than a finite one.
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[00:00:50] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I bring you a conversation with a Christian who’s pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and routines and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences the work they do in the world.
Today’s guest was so much fun having on the show. His name is Nape Knapper. He’s a federal law enforcement officer, focused on human trafficking and counterterrorism. He’s also the founder and CEO of The Joseph Project, which connects victims of human trafficking to pro bono legal services. Nate and I sat down – this guy got a crazy, impressive resume. We talked a little bit about that. He was a White House intern, a Pepperdine law grad, assistant attorney general to the State of Michigan.
We talked about his background, we talked about our shared experiences as White House interns and the time that I bold-faced lied to President George W. Bush’s face. That was a fun one. Glad I got that one off my chest. We also talked about the biblical narrative of Joseph and how that story reveals a God of the pits and the palaces. We also talked about why the never-ending work, never ending to-do lists, to-do lists that are never going to be accomplished before the kingdom is fully manifested on earth is actually more inspiring than finite work. I think you’re going to love this episode with my new friend, Nate Knapper.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:02:44] JR: Nate Knapper, thanks for joining us.
[00:02:46] NK: Jordan, thank you for having me.
[00:02:48] JR: I was doing some research on you and I noticed you and I share a line item in our resumes. We were both White House interns, same administration. You were there 2008?
[00:03:03] NK: No kidding, yes. I was there in the summer of 2008. That would have been the tail end of the W. Bush administration.
[00:03:10] JR: I was there fall of ’06, so also on the W administration. I got to ask, you’ve got to have a great White House internship story, right? What’s the best story you’ve got?
[00:03:22] NK: Yeah, I could share one of those with you, Jordan. It’s funny and maybe you’ve done this yourself, but somewhere along the course of your employment there, one of the things that they like to do, it’s a very nice thing, is they will gather you as a group of interns and they’ll give you several minutes with the president. It’s an opportunity for you to take a picture with him and the vice president as well. At that time, it was Dick Cheney. The day came and we dressed in our best suits and we had a few minutes to ask President Bush some questions. We all took our photos and later, we received a signed copy of it from Bush and from Cheney.
[00:04:01] JR: Yeah. Got one in my office. I got the same picture, yeah.
[00:04:04] NK: It’s a beautiful photo. They do it very well. It’s in the east room of the White House and it’s staged beautifully. So the story is, all that is by way of preface, my parents had the beautiful idea that they would put it in a very nice frame for me and they would give it to me as a Christmas gift one year. I thought that was very nice. They take it to Michael’s, which is like a local store where you can buy frames here in the Detroit area. The people at Michael’s, they put it into a frame and the seal up in the back. They realized when they flip it over, that it’s a bit cockeyed. What they want to do is they want to readjust it.
To do that, you have to take a razor and you have to open the back of the frame. They do that, they grab a razor, they reopen it in an attempt to kind of center it on the glass. When they did that, they sliced it in an X. This is a picture signed by Bush and Cheney.
[00:05:05] JR: Isn’t it very liberal, Michael store, right?
[00:05:08] NK: Well, I don’t know what the disposition is, but it came back and to their credit, Michael’s actually called the White House Switchboard because they were so horrified.
[00:05:16] JR: That’s amazing.
[00:05:19] NK: They said, “Look, this is what just happened. Can you help?” They said, “No. The intern has to come direct to us.” Fortunately, they were able to get me a new one before Bush left office. I do have a new copy, I was thankful for that.
[00:05:32] JR: That’s a great story. Ironically, one of my favorite White House stories is exactly the same scenario. It has to do with the picture with the president. As you said, they take a picture with every class. I assumed when I heard that President Bush and Vice President Cheney were going to take a picture, that they would like hang out and answer questions, whatever. Me, being the perennial suck up, I asked my boss, I was like, “Hey! What’s a question that I can ask President Bush that he’ll like just really get a kick out of, like really love answering?” My boss is like, “Oh! Little intern, you’re so naïve. The president is not going to stay and take your questions.” I was like, “Right.” But if he does, “I want to be prepared.” He’s like, “Fine. Ask him about the bust of Winston Churchill in the Oval Office.” Do you know the story behind this?
[00:06:28] NK: I don’t. You gotta give it to me.
[00:06:28] JR: All right. He’s like, “I’m not going to tell you the whole story, but the president loves talking about the bust of Winston Churchill.” I was like,”Great.” Sure enough, president and vice president come in. The vice president leaves immediately after they snapped the picture and the president gets up there and he’s like, “Hey! I told the vice president to go back to work, but I’m going to answer some of your questions.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh! That’s amazing.” I shoot my hand up. I’m the short guy in the front row and he calls out a couple of other people first. Finally, he calls on me and I bold-faced lied to the present United States. I said, “Mr. President, I’ve noticed,” like I’d personally been in the Oval Office and noticed. “I’ve noticed you’ve got this bust of Winston Churchill in the Oval Office and I’m really curious about the significance of that. He’s a foreign leader or whatever.” President Bush looks down at the ground and goes, “Thanks for asking,” and looked at me, winked at me and then went on this tirade of how much he loves Churchill and the significance of it. It was the best. He had such a ball and I just felt like an awesome line suck up to President Bush.
[00:07:38] NK: W loved you. He totally loved you for that.
[00:07:41] JR: He dug it. Yeah, it was interesting. This was right after some other kid in our class asked why we haven’t pulled troops out of Iraq yet. I’m like, “Come on, dude. You’re talking to the president. You’re asking political questions.” But yeah, he went to this long spiel about how Churchill was hated while he was in office and was driven out of power, but history remembers him very fondly and obviously you can read through the tea leaves as to what the president was saying, what he was expecting for his own legacy. But yeah, it was cool. What an awesome experience?
[00:08:14] NK: That’s fantastic. Well, I’m glad that’s an experience that you and I got to share. It’s definitely one of my more memorable ones and I’ll always remember it. It was a beautiful time of life.
[00:08:23] JR: It’s a really fun time of life. You’ve had a crazy impressive career from that point forward. You clerked at the Department of Energy, assistant AG for the State of Michigan. Talk to us a little bit about the role you have today with the FBI.
[00:08:36] NK: Sure. It’s interesting that you mention some of the past roles that I have had in build up to the bureau, because I really see those as building blocks and foundational to what I do today. Just for the benefit of the listening audience, I do serve as a special agent for the FBI in our Detroit division. Of course, we have many field offices all around the country. I happen to be in Detroit. My work is investigative in nature. When you are an agent of the bureau, you are investigating violations of the federal laws. Typically, we work on squads at the bureau. Initially, when I graduated from the FBI Academy at Quantico, it’s a real place down in Virginia.
[00:09:20] JR: Not just a TV show.
[00:09:21] NR: Not just a bad TV show. We’re still all trying to forget that here.
[00:09:24] JR: A terrible TV show, yeah.
[00:09:26] NR: But nonetheless, it is sort of a real place where you go, and you train, and then you’d come out and you’re placed on assignments. For me, after I graduated, I was placed in Detroit and I was put on the human trafficking squad to begin my career and I currently serve on, what we would call internally here, the JTTF or the Joint Terrorism Task Force. That’s what I do now.
[00:09:49] JR: Is there a difference between an agent and a special agent of the FBI?
[00:09:56] NK: I’m a special guy, Jordan. I don’t know if you knew that.
[00:09:59] JR: Right. I can tell you’re a special guy, Nate, but break this down for us. I don’t understand.
[00:10:02] NK: Yeah, at least that’s what my mother tells me.
[00:10:04] JR: Right.
[00:10:05] NK: Well, no. There’s not, is the short answer. We’re all technically –
[00:10:09] JR: But special agent sounds way cooler.
[00:10:10] NK: It’s way cooler. It’s on the business card and if you say it, your cred might boost with somebody. But no, an agent, a special agent, it’s all the same.
[00:10:19] JR: It’s all the same, all right. You’re doing this work with the FBI for the last few years. You’re also the founder of this nonprofit called The Joseph Project. Tell us what The Joseph Project is, and then I’m curious if the FBI had a role in – your experience at the FBI had a role in founding of this organization?
[00:10:37] NK: Sure. I should begin by clarifying that The Joseph Project is a separate legal entity from the bureau. The bureau does not endorse the project in any way. With that understanding, I would say, yes, my FBI experiences certainly informed the founding of the organization. Again, just for the benefit of the audience, The Joseph Project is a non-profit. It’s based in Detroit, but increasingly, we’re seeing cases referred to us from many states around the country. The idea is that you would provide pro bono legal services to survivors of human trafficking because we recognize that when a survivor comes out of exploitation, they have what we would call legal collateral damage. They have all these legal issues that build up over time and so lawyers can help them overcome those challenges.
But, I was exposed to some of those legal hurdles in the course of my work. You mentioned the State of Michigan Attorney General’s Office. I had the opportunity to work on human trafficking issues there. Then of course, when you’re on the FBI’s task force in Detroit, you have an opportunity to sort of see the issue from a front-line enforcement perspective. Among other things, when you’re recovering a survivor from a hotel, a car, a private home, wherever it happens to be, you’re sort of immediately pulling them out of the circumstances of that danger. But then, you’re exposed, later on down the road to those legal issues that if they don’t receive assistance with, they’re going to continue to struggle.
The Joseph Project was a separate effort in an attempt to resolve some of those issues and help survivors move forward into a bright future.
[00:12:23] JR: Was their particular case that you’re able to talk about publicly that sparked this desire and this vision for The Joseph Project?
[00:12:32] NK: Yes. By that, I’m taking you to mean the case of a survivor?
[00:12:36] JR: Yeah.
[00:12:36] NK: Yes, of course. When I think of the project, it’s tied to the story of a young woman named D'lynn who I know is comfortable with me sharing her story. I would never share it without her permission, but I know she’ll be comfortable. She was an individual that I met at a church service of all places, at my local church here in Michigan. She was a survivor. She shared her story on stage in front of thousands of people. It was a horrific story of exploitation over the course of many years on the streets of Detroit. It culminated in a circumstance that was among the most violent and the most vicious that I’ve ever heard of.
She was stabbed I think nine times, her jaw was broken, her exploiter attempted to drown her in a bathtub and then spoke of burning her alive. When he assaulted her this way, she had all of these physical injuries of course and that she was on the verge of death. She was going to die right there in his house. He ended up taking her to a local hospital, and dumping her on the doorstep and driving away. D’lynn made a full recovery, thankfully. But what ended up happening was that she was charged for the medical bills that were associated with her treatment. She didn’t know anything about that. She was just seeking to get better and to exit the hospital. But she was later sued for the expenses associated with her treatment and she didn’t have an attorney to help her resolve those things.
She came to us in some level of distress and she said, “I don’t know what to do here,” and being an attorney, I identified for her, “D’lynn, you really legal counsel here to help you resolve what’s in front of you.” She of course doesn’t have the means or the knowledge to secure that type of help and so I was able to help her find lawyers who would help her free of charge, pro bono, Matt and Amanda Paletz are their names. They’re incredible lawyers here in the State of Michigan. In short, they resolved everything for D’lynn the way that it should have been resolved. The hospital was even compensated for the services that were rendered and everybody kind of came out the way that they should.
It exposed to me the power of leveraging the law to empower the enslaved, which is the eventual slogan of The Joseph Project. That’s what we were able to do for D’lynn and that she’s still a great friend of mine today, doing extremely well by the way.
[00:15:11] JR: That’s amazing. What an incredible story and obviously an organization kind of founded to try to create more of the stories. I’m assuming this is named after Joseph of the Bible. How did the life of Joseph influence your vision for this work? Where do you see the connection with Joseph and this fight against human trafficking and providing support for those who have been trafficked?
[00:15:33] NK: It is, yes. The very famous Bible story from the biblical Book of Genesis. I’m sure your audience will know it well, but the connection to Joseph himself is that Joseph was the textbook definition of a human trafficking survivor. If you know the story, I’m sure many do, he was sold into Egyptian slavery by his own brother. Here we would say in legal terms that he was commercially exploited for labor services through force. His brothers traffick him to Egypt, he is sold into the home of an Egyptian captain named Potiphar, does very well. He is named the head of the household essentially, the lead servant. He’s a domestic servant and then he’s falsely accused of sexual assault, he’s wrongly incarcerated, no due process, rises to become second in command of the entire nation of Egypt after interpreting a dream for the Pharaoh.
An incredible turnaround story, but all of it from a survivor of trafficking, whose circumstances God worked out for good in the end. It’s a beautiful story.
[00:16:40] JR: I noticed on the website the phone number for The Joseph Project is 1-855-GEN-5020. Of course, spelling out Genesis 50:20, which you borderline just quoted, right? Joseph is talking to his brothers and he said, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done.” The savings of lives, right?
[00:17:05] NK: That’s right.
[00:17:05] JR: And use Joseph to help end this famine. As you’ve minded the depths of Genesis – what is it? 37-ish through 50 in the life of Joseph? What have you pulled out of that that’s relevant to your work?
[00:17:22] NK: Absolutely. Well, it’s the notion that hope is never truly lost. If you stay in faith and if you persevere, you said it, Genesis 50:20, by the way, it is the phone number GEN-5020, that was the precise idea. The message is central to the entire story. I would even argue to the story of God and his relationship with human beings. We go through many very difficult things in life, and those things are unique to every person. They can be very devastating and challenging sometimes. The beautiful truth, the timeless truth that the bible has been telling us from the very beginning, this is the Book of Genesis, the beginning, it’s telling you, if you stay in faith, if you persevere, what people and circumstances mean for evil, God has the unique amazing ability to turn all around for good. It’s uncanny. He’s very good at it. He’s been doing it a long time and can do it in a moment. It’s unbelievable and Joseph is just one of many examples for whom he has done that.
[00:18:35] JR: Amen. I was meditating on this passage a couple weeks ago, writing a devotional on it. A couple things stood out to me. First is really what you just said, that, “Regardless of the actions of sinful human beings, God’s purposes will never be thwarted,” to quote Job. Job 42, I think it is. Right? “All the sad things will come untrue,” as Tolkien said in Lord of the Rings. The second thing that really sticks out to me in the story of Joseph is that God chooses to use our work, our vocations, in this case, the work of Joseph, this government official, to accomplish his purposes in the world. God could have ended the famine with a miracle. He could have just sent [inaudible] raining from the sky or whatever, but he didn’t. All throughout scripture, from Genesis 1 until today, we see God choosing to work in the world, primarily through the faithfulness of his people. I would argue what you’re doing right now, Nate, is a pretty darn good example of that.
Human exploitation has no place in the Kingdom of God, but he’s working through you and other people to do that redemptive work. I think Joseph is a really beautiful, beautiful picture of that.
[00:20:00] NK: It certainly is. You know what’s interesting, Jordan is I think about the story in the context of your podcast, the Call to Mastery. You’re absolutely right, that very often, when God wants to do something in the world, he is choosing a person in order to affect or accomplish that work. But what’s fascinating is many, many times, when you read sort of the big-ticket stories of the Bible, I mean, you could point to many of them, Moses, David, Joseph, Daniel. There are so many others that you could point to, but these are men and women that have been prepared for the future that they dreamed about. Very often, through a series of very, very difficult challenges, and tests and hardships that they have had to pass.
It is God’s way, or at least one of his ways, that he accomplishes his big agendas for the world is to choose a person and then to train them, and to train them over time to make them a master of whatever scenario he wants them to master for his glory.
[00:21:09] JR: Amen. Very, very well said. Frequently throughout scripture, I mean, you just saw it in the list of names you rattled off, Moses, David, Daniel, he chooses the weak things, the foolish things, the inadequate to accomplish his purposes so that he, not us, will get the glory, right? I was thinking about David the other day. David was just a shepherd, he was just some random shepherd running out there in the fields, chasing sheep. God’s like, “Yeah, yeah. That’s my king, so that I can get the glory. It’s not the tall one. It’s not the strong one. Through your weakness, I will be shown as great and strong.” I think it’s beautiful.
Nate, you guys are executing against this massive problem of human trafficking, not just there in Michigan, but across the country. A problem that likely, we will not see solved until the Kingdom is fully manifest on earth as it is in heaven. I can imagine that can be frustrating, to work so hard at a problem and still see so much sin, so much pain, so much trafficking in this world. How do you maintain contentment in that, with the fruit that God is producing in your work, knowing that it’s not the ultimate fruit that you want to see?
[00:22:33] NK: Yeah. I think that that’s a good question. If the Book of Genesis and the story of Joseph tell us anything, it’s that that human trafficking is a problem that’s existed as old as time. To your point, I’m not under an illusion that I’m the one to end it. I expect candidly that it will continue. But you talk about maintaining contentment and maybe I would add to that just maintaining hope in the face of such a giant obstacle. What I think is interesting Jordan, I think of an answer that Scott Harrison, the founder of Charity Water.
[00:23:09] JR: One of my favorite people.
[00:23:11] NK: I mean, he’s just an incredible guy. It’s an amazing story. It’s a global nonprofit that does incredible work all around the world. He has talked in the past about the fact that endless work used to scare him, but now it inspires him. It doesn’t cause him to shy away, the fact that he will maybe never end the water crisis in his lifetime. Similarly with me, even though trafficking might not be “solved” in my lifetime, what I would argue and what I believe Scott argues is that, if you find yourself in a position where you are staring down the barrel endless work, what that really means is that you have found a passion that you could give your life to. I think that’s a beautiful thing.
I think to find something that could energize you and inspire you to get up, and to keep working, and to keep going every day, that’s a beautiful gift. I think on some level, it’s something to be treasured instead of something to be balked at. I actually view it as a positive thing in a way.
[00:24:21] JR: I completely agree. My mission is to inspire every Christian to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others.
[00:24:28] NK: I love that.
[00:24:30] JR: What I love about that is like, it can’t be finished, like just by nature of populations growing and changing. It’s an infinite game. That requires me to think with a longer time horizon than the next book or whatever and try to build an organization that could carry out that work forever. It’s also humbling just to recognize that that’s the mission I think God has called me to. But I’m going to die at some point, and I’m going to have to trust the Lord to continue that work when I’m gone. He’s going to find somebody else to pick up the baton, because frankly, I’m not special. He could choose anybody to accomplish His work in the world.
I read this great John Piper quote the other day that I love. It was kind of buried in another book. He said, “My job is faithfulness. God’s job is fruitfulness.” I’ve been thinking about that and quoting that a lot since I read it a couple of months ago. Because I think that’s spot on. A lot of times we want to take responsibility for fruitfulness, and yet that’s just not what scripture teaches us. We just gotta be faithful. We gotta see problems in the world, engage them, try to solve them with the hope that one day all things will be new or when the kingdom comes to earth. Yeah, God’s going to produce that fruit. I don’t know. That’s encouraging to me, right? That’s hopeful. It’s not hoping in our work. It’s hoping in His ultimate work. Does that make sense?
[00:25:57] NK: It sure does. You could point to the tail end of the Book of John, Jesus speaking to his disciples, “If you abide in me, you’ll bear much fruit.” The fruit comes in Jesus and he’s supremely capable of growing the fruit that he wishes, the fruit of the Spirit, right? Galatians. It will populate according to the will of God, I promise you that.
[00:26:22] JR: Yeah, well said. Hey, we already talked through some of your resume. You got some pretty impressive credentials. Clearly, you have high standards of excellence in your work. I’m curious if you see a connection between your faith and that commitment to excellence or are those kind of two separate things for you?
[00:26:41] NK: No, they’re intertwined. By the way, I should lead by saying you’re absolutely right. I do live my life or at least attempt to according to principles of excellence. My team members at The Joseph Project are well aware of that and they give it to me. I respect them and love them for that. Excellence is certainly my posture toward my daily work. I think that that’s primarily the case because your work is a reflection of you. If you purport to be a person of faith, which I certainly do, your work is ultimately also a reflection of the person or the entity in whom you have faith. In my case, it would be God, it would be Jesus. It’s interesting, when you read the Scriptures, you get a profound sense that God is deserving of that kind of excellent effort.
You could read in the Old Testament, it says, “Ascribe to the Lord the glory that is what, do his name.” Take it to the end of the scriptures, the Book of Revelation, you have people saying, “What worthy are you Lord to receive glory, honor, power and the like?” There’s a sense in which God is worthy and he is due something from us by virtue of his position. I think that that thing is excellence. I’m happy to give that because I think it’s the only appropriate response to a God that great.
[00:28:12] JR: It’s our spiritual act of worship. That’s what being a living sacrifice looks like. Work is not a means of serving us. It’s meant to be poured out sacrificially on behalf of others and in service of God’s great glory. Thus, we have a greater standard for excellence, I think, right?. I don’t see anywhere in scripture where God demands that we achieve excellence, but I do think He is honored and glorified and smiles upon the pursuit of mastery, the pursuit of excellence because that is a form of worship.
It is interesting, I was reading through Paul’s letters again and man, Paul talks so much about working hard. He says he strenuously contended with all the energy he had. He left it all on the field, all of it. Even Jesus said he glorified the father by finishing the work the father gave him to do. It’s like yeah, that’s what we’re called to, that pursuit of mastery, that pursuit of excellence for his glory. Hey, Nate, I want to ask you about something else. It’s interesting to me in a field like yours that clearly through God’s grace, there’s plenty of non-Christians working to end human trafficking, right? You mentioned Scott Harrison, there’s plenty of non-Christians working to end the water crisis in the world. But I am curious what you think, and we should celebrate that clearly, right? I am curious what you think is distinct or different about your approach to this work, because you are a follower of Christ.
[00:29:48] NK: Yeah, that’s a good question. What makes it distinct? I think, if I wasn’t a person of faith, I think that the work would ultimately be devoid of a lot of the intrinsic meaning behind it. What I mean by that is this; if you are able to resolve a legal issue for an exploited individual, I suspect that that person is going to be very happy about that. On some level, maybe you will be too and the attorney who gave them the aid will feel some sense of accomplishment. But if you are stopping there, then what I think that you’re running into is what my pastor here, locally, Chris Brooks, an amazing pastor at Woodside Bible Church, you’re running up against what he would call sentimental humanitarianism, where you’re doing good just for the sake of doing it. But when you infuse faith into the picture, what we are trying to do through The Joseph Project is use or leverage the good works to introduce you to a much larger point of hope. That point of hope is found in the narrative that we’ve already talked about; “You meant evil. God meant good.”
If you can believe that even the difficulties in your life can be re-weaved for a higher, better purpose by a God who actually loves you and is not against you, he’s for you, then that’s a gift that you can give somebody that actually has a deeper level of meaning than if you were to just resolve their legal issue, handle their criminal record, reunite them with their child and send them on their way. I think a lot of the meaning would be lost if you did it without faith.
[00:31:34] JR: Yeah. It’s like an entirely different plane of hope. You’ve spent your career in public service, I’m curious what you think world-class public servants do that their less masterful counterparts don’t do? Like within the context of government civil service, like what’s the delta between good and great?
[00:31:54] NK: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think in its purest sense, I mean, you mentioned public service, so I suppose, the ones that excel at it and do it the best, and I’m talking specifically about that lens of public service, I guess I would say that those who are truly excellent at it, those who you would think of as being in an upper echelon or being the best, I think that they have a commitment to the good and the well-being and the best interests of others as opposed to themselves. I think that we’ve seen lots of examples and they’re well documented in the news, and we see them all the time, of people who are elected officials or public servants of some nature. But it’s clear that they were in it for their own devices, and the narrative story that’s being reported to you bears that out. But I think in its truest sense, public service is something that’s done for the good of the citizenry, for the good of other people.
[00:33:05] JR: It’s done in service of the public, ideally.
[00:33:08] NK: That’s exactly right. That’s I think where, at least where it begins. I think that you have to have that posture as a starting point at least.
[00:33:16] JR: I’m sure you spent a ton of time reading through the story of Joseph. What do you think made him really stand out in the eyes of the Pharaoh? What do you think made Joseph distinct there?
[00:33:27] NK: Well, what’s interesting is, you mentioned what made him stand out in the eyes of a Pharaoh. I’ll just give you the Pharaoh’s answer, because I happened to read it. The Pharaoh would say, “Where can we find another person like this in whom is the Spirit of God?” That’s what stood out to Pharaoh, because that’s what Pharaoh said before the council of his advisors about Joseph. What’s interesting is, all along the way, what you see is that Joseph goes from bad to worse. His circumstances go down, down, down. But at every step, the Bible is very careful to point out one commonality among all the circumstances that he dealt with and it’s simple, God was with Joseph.
He’s with him in Potiphar’s house, he’s with him in the pit, he’s with him in the prison, he’s with him in the palace. He’s with him everywhere he goes. Pharaoh picks up on that. Isn’t it fascinating? He says, “Where can we find another person like this? The spirit of God is with this one. I’m going to put you second in command.” Isn’t that fascinating?
[00:34:43] JR: Hey, Nate, I’m curious, you’re clearly a productive guy. You’ve got a very demanding day job and you’ve got this nonprofit that’s growing. Like, what does your day look like typically? From the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed.
[00:34:56] NK: Yeah, that’s a tough question. The reason why it’s tough, is because my days can look very different depending on the nature of my FBI-related activity. What I mean is, oftentimes, we’ll be in different circumstances day to day, whether it’s conducting an operation, a search or an arrest operation. Sometimes we’ll do surveillance activities.
[00:35:20] JR: I’ve been talking to more people who have these types of roles, where the middle of their day never looks the same, because it’s so dependent on, for you, case load, or for a sales executive, what pitches they have coming up that day. The middle is real messy. Not messy, but just inconsistent. I’m curious if the wrapper is tight and consistent? Like do you have the same morning and evening rituals?
[00:35:48] NK: Yeah. That’s maybe a little bit easier to answer, so perhaps I could give you maybe some habits or some best practices that kind of bookend the days.
[00:35:58] JR: Yeah, I’d love that.
[00:35:59] NK: I think that, Jordan, honestly, my commute, the car for me has become something of an inner sanctum because I know that it’s quiet. I know that it’s just me. I can answer my phone or choose not to answer my phone if I wish. It’s a time where I can embrace some of the silence of the day before things get crazy and sometimes out-of-control. I think that it’s good to make a habit of carving out at least some time, it doesn’t have to be in the car, but some time to just enjoy some silence. You can use it to pray, you could use it to listen to a podcast, listen to Jordan Raynor. You could use it to listen to a book.
[00:36:50] JR: No. Use it for silence. I’m so glad you brought this up, because I just – I’m publishing a book in October called Redeeming Your Time. The early readers’ favorite chapter is a chapter called Dissent from the Kingdom of Noise. It’s all about this idea that Jesus spent a phenomenal amount of time, if you believe the gospel accounts, in solitude, in lonely places. I would argue there’s almost nothing rarer today than silence, solitude, time to think, time to pray, time to listen to God’s voice. If you’ve got a commute like Nate, don’t listen to my podcast. Spend that time in silence.
[00:37:32] NK: Don’t listen to it.
[00:37:33] JR: Don’t listen to it. Turn it off right now.
[00:37:35] NK: Yeah. Jordan, I guess, just one other point I guess I would add. There are people – not just at the bureau, these people are everywhere. I think our culture conditions us in a way to be like this. But there are people who view lunch and grabbing a bite to eat as something to be shunned or looked down on in some way. I actually view things just the opposite. I think that you should prioritize health, and eating and carving out some time to nourish your physical body, because I think in the end, that will take you a lot farther than if you just try to go, go, go until you crash.
In terms of another habit, I say, unashamedly, very openly that I do take a lunch hour and I try to actually eat during that time. It’s important to me to get the nourishment.
[00:38:28] JR: I love that. That’s really good. Two basic routines, but critically important. All right, hey, Nate, I’ve got three questions we wrap up every question with. Really curious, which books on the regular do you find recommending or maybe gifting to other people?
[00:38:45] NK: Yeah, which books are good? Jordan, have you heard of Squire Rushnell? Do you know the God Winks series?
[00:38:53] JR: No.
[00:38:52] NK: All right. For the listeners and for you, God Winks is a great series and I think there are several of them now that Squire Rushnell has produced. He does them oftentimes in coordination with his wife, Louise DuArt. They are very simple. They are compilations of stories that recount for people, these moments where God appears to be giving the people involved a direct specifically tailored reminder. Some kind of message that He sees them and it’s going to be okay. It’s a simple, straightforward structure. Again, they’re just story compilations and what Squire Rushnell does is weave in his commentary in between the stories. But it’s a beautiful concept. What I love about it is that he’s not – he’s not a theologian, he’s not a pastor, he is a former TV executive who did GMA stuff and Schoolhouse Rock.
I think that if there’s a listener out there that is wondering whether or not God sees you and understands what you’re going through, God Winks will assure you that he does and it’s going to be okay.
[00:40:18] JR: All right. Who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences their work in the world?
[00:40:26] NK: You’re going to get your next guest from me. Interesting question.
[00:40:28] JR: That’s right.
[00:40:29] NK: Well, boy, a person that really jumps to mind immediately. Have you heard or maybe you know, Erwin McManus? Do you know him?
[00:40:39] JR: I do. I don’t know him well, but we’ve exchanged a few messages and I love Erwin McManus. Yeah, that’s a great answer.
[00:40:45] NK: If you’re able to, if he’s agreeable, I really would recommend Erwin McManus. He’s one of the best speakers I’ve ever heard in my life. For context for the listeners, he’s a pastor of a church in LA called Mosaic, but his speeches are laced with very creative and also some entrepreneurial themes. He’s a very creative guy. The reason, Jordan, that I would recommend him for this particular show is, he recently engaged in a very brief sermon series, series of conversations as he would call them out in LA. He called it Self-Mastery.
The basic notion is that we have a responsibility, before we master any sort of craft, whether that’s music, or a sport, or public service or anything like that, we have a responsibility to master ourselves. So take ownership of your decisions, your emotions, your physical body. I think that on the Call to Mastery, Erwin McManus would have a lot to say in terms of flushing out the conversation on the personal side.
[00:42:05] JR: I love that. It reminds me of Paul talking about exercising self-discipline in everything. Did you read Erwin McManus’ book? It’s almost a decade old now, called The Artisan Soul.
[00:42:17] NK: Yes, I did.
[00:42:17] JR: Yeah, it’s a great book. I read that when I was researching my first book, Called to Create. All right. Last question, Nate. What’s one thing from our conversation today that you want to reiterate, highlight for our listeners before we sign off? If there’s one thing you want them to take from this conversation, what is it?
[00:42:37] NK: Sure. Yeah. Well, again, I’m thinking about the context of the show and the premise, the Call to Mastery. How about this, Jordan, because we started with W, let’s just end with W because I – We didn’t discuss this ahead of time.
[00:42:53] JR: No, this is not planned.
[00:42:55] NK: Yeah. No, totally unplanned. But I also, during my session where we got to be with the president, I also asked George W. Bush a question.
[00:43:05] JR: This is amazing. What did you ask him?
[00:43:06] NK: Yeah. I actually had the same opportunity that you did and I asked him, “President Bush, you’re known as a person of faith, how do you prioritize your faith in the midst of such a demanding busy schedule?” I will never forget his answer and I think it is informative for anybody that aspires to master the calling in their own life. He said, “You always have time for what you prioritize.” You always have time for what you prioritize. In his case, what he was saying was, I have time for my faith because I prioritize it.
I would encourage anybody listening out there who might feel like they have a dream or they have a calling, but they don’t have time to execute on those visions, you have to set clear parameters and priorities for your life. I think that if the president of the United States can set those parameters, you are capable of it as well, and I believe you can do it and you can succeed. You always have time for what you prioritize.
[00:44:20] JR: Very well said. I said recently on the podcast that I really want to do back to back episodes with President Bush and President Carter to people who, from the outside looking in, are pretty serious about their faith and just come from very different political perspectives, right? I think that would be fascinating. If we can’t get President Bush, hey, at least we got the answer to that question. Thanks for asking it way back in 2008, Nate.
[00:44:50] NK: He already gave it to you.
[00:44:51] JR: He already gave it to us. It’s like we had President Bush on the podcast today.
[00:44:57] NK: I wouldn’t say that, but the answer stands. That’s what he said.
[00:45:00] JR: I’m promoting this episode to be crystal clear. Hey, Nate. I want to commend you just for the terrific work you do, redemptive work you’re doing in the world every single day and just for being open to the Lord’s call in your life, to be his hands, and feet and doing this redemptive work in the world of human trafficking. Thank you for your commitment to excellence. Hey, guys. If you want to learn more about Nate and The Joseph Project, you can find out more at josephproject.com. Hey, Nate. Before we sign off, tell us real quickly about this fundraising campaign you guys are running right now for The Joseph Project and how we can get involved?
[00:45:40] NK: Yeah. I appreciate you asking and it’s always a little interesting to talk about funding. It’s of course not why The Joseph Project was started, but what you learn is that, to broaden your impact, you need a degree of funding. It certainly helps and Jordan, there’s no specific campaign at the moment, but we’re always available online to receive if people feel led to give. It really does inspire us, and what it tells us is that you believe in the mission and you see the need and feel that it should be met just like we do. I can tell you that if you choose to give, the money is well spent. It is changing survivors' lives and it also is making a big impact in the lives of the attorneys who are rendering the legal aid. It’s beautiful all the way around and it’s like rocket fuel to us if you feel called to do that.
[00:46:35] JR: I love it. Well, I’m in on the mission. I’ve already given to the organization and I would encourage all of you to give as well. Hey, Nate, thank you so much for hanging out with us on the Call to Mastery.
[00:46:48] NK: Jordan, thank you again. It was an honor to join you today.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:46:51] JR: I really wanted to put in the subject line for the show, “With special guest, George W. Bush,” but I didn’t because that would have been shameless click bait. But hey, in a roundabout way we got the president to answer a question. Hey, by the way if you’re listening and you work for President Bush, give us a call. We really want to have him on the show. If you enjoyed this episode. make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss an episode in the future. If you’re already subscribed, take 30 seconds right now, please, go leave a review of the podcast. That’s how we get guests on the show. They go on iTunes, they look at how many ratings and reviews a podcast has. Trust me, I know it because I do this as a guest on the other side of the microphone. So go leave a review so we can get President George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter and all these other guests that we would love to have on the show.
Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening. I love making the show for you. I’ll see you next week.
[END]