How Jesus-like mentors “show you what life can be like”
How Jesus-like mentors “show you what life can be like,” what Maina learned about discerning calling from CBS’s James Brown, and why you should serve at the worst times of life.
Links Mentioned:
[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey everybody, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as postal workers, ballet dancers, and pharmacy techs? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to my friend Maina Mwaura. He is a world-class journalist who has interviewed almost a thousand people, including two US presidents, three vice presidents, and many, many, many other world leaders.
Maina and I recently sat down to talk about how Jesus-like mentors show you what life can be like. We talked about what Maina learned about discerning calling from CBS's James Brown and his crazy story about how Maina’s career as a journalist started, and we talked about why you should serve at the very worst times of life and career. My friend, I think you’re going to love this conversation with Maina Mwaura.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:14.0] JR: Maina Mwaura, welcome to the Mere Christian’s Podcast, buddy.
[0:01:17.0] MM: Man, how did I make this one, Jordan? I like – I might have gone, you know when you get invited to a special party and you’re like, “How did I get here?”
[0:01:25.4] JR: How did I get in this room?
[0:01:27.5] MM: Kind of weird being on the opposite side of this though.
[0:01:30.1] JR: So, this is like the third or fourth time we’ve connected live, and every time we just like, make loads of really, really great small talk catching up to where we kind of just forget about the agenda. So, we started recording this like seven minutes late because I’m like, “I just want to talk to my buddy Maina” because you’ve got stories for days. Speaking of, you’ve interviewed nearly a thousand people, some presidents, some vice presidents, world leaders, who are you most starstruck by?
[0:01:59.2] MM: That’s a good question, Jordan. Man, thanks for like, stopping me when I first come to show here, buddy. You know, Jordan, to be honest with you, the person that still rings one of the top two or three, man, there is this pastor here in the Atlanta area who was dying of cancer. He ended up actually dying of cancer, in fact, and I got to spend time with him 10 days before he passed away and it hit me, at the end of the day, Jordan when all of this is said and done, it’s really going to come down to your family and your close friends.
And what he decided to do, it was really kind of interesting is that he said, “You know what? I want to see as many people as I can.” Even though the doctor told him, “The more people that you see, it’s going to quicken your death” But he made the decision that he wanted to be around people even in death and it was just kind of - it still ranks as my number one just because it just taught me a lot about life, it was early on when I was starting this.
And so, it was one of those deals where I think God planted him right in my space to just remind me, it’s not about whoever we think it is when it comes to the influential people, Jordan if that makes sense.
[0:03:16.6] JR: I love that that’s your answer to the starstruck question, by the way. It shows a remarkable humility in how much you understand the upside-down nature of the kingdom. By the way, can you share who - what's this guy’s name?
[0:03:27.3] MM: What’s weird, I forgot his name as I was talking to you, Joel Hunter, was a guy who connected me to him but I am like, going blank.
[0:03:34.2] JR: I love that you care, man, this makes it even better that you can’t remember his name. This is so good.
[0:03:38.6] MM: Hey, it was like, one of those kind of guys – oh my gosh, I know I will wake up and go, “That’s his name.” But he led a church here in the Atlanta area called Grace and so, it was Grace Snellville and I – I turned my phone off Jordan, for our time together. If I had my phone on, I would be able to look it up. Grace Snellville is the name of the church, still the name of the church, and he left such a legacy. That church where it’s still thriving and going and bigger than ever, Jordan.
[0:04:06.9] JR: That’s good. What off-camera moment with an interviewee are you least likely to forget?
[0:04:13.8] MM: Oh man, I remember interviewing this one influential person, Jordan and there had been 800 and something, Jordan, right now. I don’t know the exact number man, but almost a thousand. I’ll never forget this, Jordan. I started off – you know, you start small talk, you want to be kind, you want to be great, I was kind of funny things and he was a columnist. He was an op-ed guy and I said, “Man, I love your work most of the time.” Just to kind of make a start of work.
Well, that did not go on very well, Jordan, because he then responded back and said, “Really? I hate those kinds of responses.” And he wasn’t joking, Jordan. It was kind of one of those things where I was like, “Okay” And it just – I mean, Jordan, it just started off bad, dude, where I had to literally go, “Do we need to do this like, another time?” Like, I just –
[0:05:07.1] JR: That’s amazing. Just disaster.
[0:05:09.1] MM: A disaster, a disaster, disaster and so now, I catch myself when talking to people and going, “Yeah, your work’s great all the time” Jordan.
[0:05:18.2] JR: That’s amazing. “I love all your work” that’s what you told me and now I know treatment is genuine, yeah, no, yeah.
[0:05:24.2] MM: Yeah, I love all your, that’s sort of go view, I love all your work.
[0:05:28.3] JR: Last fun opener. Who, out of everyone you’ve interviewed, presidents, influencers, who would be the most fun to grab a beer with if you weren’t such a good Southern Baptist?
[0:05:37.8] MM: Oh my gosh, you’re going to laugh at this one. I don’t almost want to tell them then because people might go, “Oh my gosh, not him, Maina, not him.” I’d give you two people, I give you two. Number one is Clarence Thomas, he’s number one.
[0:05:49.6] JR: Wow.
[0:05:50.5] MM: Number one.
[0:05:51.8] JR: Like, a good hang, Clarence Thomas?
[0:05:53.2] MM: Hands down, like he could be Uncle Clarence, there goes that and then number two is Max Lucado.
[0:06:00.6] JR: I’ve heard this about Max.
[0:06:01.9] MM: He is amazing dude, he’s my number one person I’ve interviewed the most by the way.
[0:06:07.1] JR: Wow.
[0:06:07.9] MM: Just amazing. Amazing guy, he’s helped me out in so many ways that he probably should not have. I mean –
[0:06:14.6] JR: I love – that’s a really good answer, that was not what I was expecting. Look, Clarence Thomas and Max Lucado, there you go.
[0:06:20.6] MM: Clarence Thomas, hands down.
[0:06:21.8] JR: We’re going to be drinking pints of Guinness on the new earth together with Maina Mwaura.
[0:06:28.0] MM: That’s sick dude, so it’s kind of –
[0:06:29.4] JR: I love it. Hey man, so, for most of your career, you were not a mere Christian as I define that term. You spent the first 21 years of your career as a pastor. What the story of how you went from pastor to journalist? I’ve heard the long version of the story. What’s a short version of that story that you could share with our listeners?
[0:06:48.2] MM: Yeah Jordan, I loved being in the ministry and I’m thankful that I got to do the first 21 years in doing it. I do think though, that I was fearful of jumping into the role I’m in now, all because I thought that I couldn’t do it, Jordan. If I could do it all over again, it would have been one of those things. Although I deeply enjoy doing youth ministries, it was a lot of fun but I probably would have done this one first but the fear stopped me.
I mean, it really stopped me in my tracks, big time but it wasn’t until you know, I know there are people out there who are probably going through this too but it wasn’t until I got fired from the church, right? Like I was the wrong fit and honestly – honestly, I was the wrong fit, looking back at it but I was talking to a buddy of mine named Sam and Sam loves your show by the way, loves your podcast.
[0:07:43.6] JR: Hey Sam.
[0:07:44.6] MM: And Sam said, I was talking to Sam and I said, “I could never do journalism because I can’t write and I stutter.” And Sam looked at me and said, “You know Maina, I’ve known you for” a – over a decade at that time, 15 years of that and he said, “I’ve never heard you stutter before.” And it caught me, Jordan, that I was putting these limitations on my life that just weren’t there.
And I would tell anyone, whatever the limitation that you think is out there, take the jump anyway but I let fear stop me in doing journalism.
[0:08:20.3] JR: Yeah, there’s – I mean, you’re hitting on something – one of my favorite themes when it comes to the topic of discerning calling is, Christians shouldn’t let other Christians discern calling alone.
[0:08:30.4] MM: Right.
[0:08:31.4] JR: Like, it takes other voices in your life saying, “That’s a lie that you stutter, I’ve never heard you do this” or speaking words of life and you have like, “Hey man, like, no, I think you could be great at journalism.” By the way, am I remembering this part of your story that James Brown of NFL CBS Famed was one of those people who spoke those words into you?
[0:08:49.9] MM: Oh my gosh, James Brown, if I could take a minute here to talk about him, Jordan. He was influential in my life.
[0:08:56.9] JR: Like, at the very beginning of your career as a journalist, right?
[0:09:00.0] MM: In the very beginning. Remember, I mean, Jordan, I got to literally walk out of this church experience, just wounded. I really thought, Jordan, as I – I’ve never talked about this before but I really thought, Jordan, that my career was over. I can remember telling my wife, “I don't know what I’m going to do next” and I was very fearful of that because one thing has ended that you didn’t want to end, but it did end and I thought this career is over.
I really did man, I thought, “I’m never going to work again” and it wasn’t because I did anything immoral or anything, Jordan. I just thought I was done and I happened to do a service project that I’ll tell everyone, serve in your worst time because I think God really speaks in those seasons, right? And I served at this event and literally, the guy that I was like serving that day said to me, “Hey man, I so enjoyed this experience with you.”
He goes, “Anything that you need or want, can you just let me know?” And I made the flip-it remark where I said, “I’ve always wanted to meet the CBS Sports commentator, James Brown.” And he looks at me and he goes, “I can make that happen.”
[0:10:15.6] JR: Stop.
[0:10:16.1] MM: And I thought he was joking. Don’t laugh at this. This was all going on, Jordan, in the Dallas Cowboys Stadium. Like, taking a stadium tour and so, it was all going on –
[0:10:28.1] JR: This is where you’re serving. You’re serving in the stadium.
[0:10:30.5] MM: Well yeah, this is where it gets bizarre. So, I’m helping this event out and this person I was serving, Fred Luther, is the guy’s name I just thought randomly, what it would be like to take him on a tour to Dallas Cowboys stadium. That was my, like, deal, dude, and he said, “Okay, we can do that, we only have 30 minutes man, to do this.” And so, we took that tour. At the end, when the Dallas Cowboys stadium locker room there, he goes, “Whatever you need/want, just let me know.” Basically and I go, “James Brown.”
By that Friday, that was like a Monday, Tuesday. By that Friday, I was on the phone with James Brown and then after that Friday, it was, “Hey, can you come follow me for three months.” And it was during those three months that I would say James Brown just confirmed what I didn’t know that I even had.
[0:11:22.2] JR: Just this gift as a journalist.
[0:11:24.2] MM: Yeah, Jordan, I didn’t think I had it.
[0:11:26.6] JR: But it took another believer of being like, “Hey, you got it, you got what it takes.”
[0:11:30.3] MM: It really did and I would tell folks who are just out there if you know someone who is wondering through their calling and if God’s calling you to confirm that calling, don’t hesitate to not do that. Do that.
[0:11:44.7] JR: That’s good, speaking from the guy who 800 or so interviews later can point back to a couple of people, a couple of believers, including James Brown, that’s so great. Speaking these words of life in our life. Hey, go back to when you got fired.
[0:11:58.9] MM: Okay.
[0:11:59.2] JR: Let’s sit there. Let’s sit with that for a second. We talked so much in this podcast as you know about the God-giving goodness of our work but the risk, of course, is that we turn that good thing into an ultimate thing. We turn it into an idol and I’ve heard a lot of stories from a lot of people when they lost a job, where like, “Man, I didn’t realize how great an idol my work had become.” Was that you?
[0:12:21.4] MM: That was me and how I knew it was an idol because I ended up getting fired like during that like, the week before Father’s Day and I can remember, I made it such an idol that I remember thinking, “Man, how am I going to feed my family, how am I going to do this and what will people think that I’m at home now?” And I had to come to find out that nobody was even thinking about that Jordan, other than me. I’m not sure [inaudible 0:12:45.4]
[0:12:46.1] JR: We’re so self-absorbed but that’s exactly what I would have been thinking, yeah.
[0:12:48.9] MM: I’m out here thinking that, Jordan. They couldn’t care less, in fact, and I had to realize, Jordan, that I let this at that time, that season become an idol and anything that’s an idol, I do believe is a problem and it had become one. So, I can remember having to walk through all of that, and for a whole month, I would call it the Jonah experience, and to a certain degree because I felt like I was left like out there, by myself, which of course, we’re never alone.
But it felt like it. It really did and it wasn’t until, Jordan, that July of that year, that really felt like, to a friend go, “Hey, you know what, Maina? Have you thought about what I’m doing now?” And that’s when it started to turn around but God – I mean, the idol deal would come up a number of times, which I would say probably has led me to believe what I believe now, is to literally go, “This is what I do but it is not who I am.”
[0:13:56.0] JR: Who are you?
[0:13:57.6] MM: Who I am is a child of God. I am the husband of a wonderful woman named Tiffany and I get the privilege of being Zion’s dad. That’s who I am.
[0:14:08.0] JR: And what you do is an expression of that “Belovedness” as a child of God?
[0:14:12.3] MM: It really is, and Jordan, one day, what I’m doing, for this season is going to come to an end and so, celebrate the season when it comes to an end but don’t idolize it as well.
[0:14:26.1] JR: Hey, so, clearly, the world would look at the work you did as a pastor and describe it as “Ministry.” But I know you view the work you do today as a journalist, as ministry as well. I’d love for our listeners to hear you explain why. Why does the work of a journalist matter to God?
[0:14:41.6] MM: Man, it matters a lot, especially in this day and age, Jordan. If you would have told me seven years ago that, “Hey, you would be in the middle of a very transformative time in life in our culture right now” where we need good storytellers. Man, we really do need people who are going to tell stories truthfully.
[0:15:03.7] JR: You live in a time when truth is eroding everywhere around us. Well, truth isn’t but the belief that there is truth.
[0:15:10.2] MM: It really is, Jordan and the main line is, and this is why I love Luke because Luke was such an eyewitness to things that were going around him and I think we meet people who are definitely an eyewitness. But they’re telling truth about what they’re seeing, not what they think they’re seeing, what they are truly seeing, and that to me is why I’m in this and I would say another reason why I’m in this also is because there aren’t a lot of unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of believers in this for a lot of host of reasons.
But it’s one of those things where it’s rare that when I’m talking to someone, whether it is a US senator’s chief of staff or whether it is the president’s, you know, team that someone does not say, “Okay, so you’re a pastor first and now, you’re a journalist?” So yeah, so when they do go, “How do those things go together?” And I think they go together beautifully.
[0:16:07.8] JR: Yeah. Why aren’t there more Christians working as journalists to quote you to you? Are there particular temptations that are unique to this calling that are – yeah, talk more about that.
[0:16:17.4] MM: Yeah, part of it is the long hours, Jordan, to be fair. That is ongoing, nonstop, 24/7, and so it’s one of those things where if you’re going to have a balanced family life, Jordan, I tell people, this may be a hard calling to do this in. I mean, just because it’s just – however though, I do think that’s where you put the idol away and you go, “Okay, this is the calling that God’s called for me to do but I’m not going to idolize it though.”
[0:16:48.3] JR: And not sacrifice the callings I have at home.
[0:16:50.6] MM: And not sacrifice my family and it’s interesting, the people who have done that, Jordan, who are not idolizing that, nor they sacrificing what God’s called them to be and to do, do very well in this calling. I mean, there are so many great – I mean, James Brown would be one of those who if you speak to him, he will tell you, “Hey, this is what I do, it’s not who I am.” And he will tell you, “God’s called me to minister in this area.” And so, that’s why it’s hard to answer your question there.
[0:17:23.8] JR: Yeah, I get that. Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, through God’s kind grace, a Christian Journalist in a non-Christian journalist, are going to approach their vocation in a lot of similar ways, right? But there should be some things that are distinct about your approach to journalism because of your apprenticeship to Christ. You know, one of those is not sacrificing your callings at home. What are some other ways that you think your work is distinct because of your faith?
[0:17:49.9] MM: Yeah, I’d say. Number one, realizing that it is a calling and I think that should be in anything that God’s called us to do, honestly, Jordan. But it is a calling and number two, that, you’re called to be an eyewitness and to be a truthteller of a story, not to make up something or to tell the truth to what you’re seeing.
[0:18:11.9] JR: To not insert your agenda, is what you’re saying?
[0:18:15.0] MM: To not insert your agenda and at the same time, it’s one of those deals where you have to realize that God’s placed you in this privileged place to be in time and in history, to be his light, and so when you are doing that, man, I think you’ll be surprised on what you get.
[0:18:37.0] JR: Can you think of an example where you’re reporting on a story and what you want to be true is clearly not true, right? And how you kind of reported through that?
[0:18:46.4] MM: Oh my gosh. There have been a couple of political figures, albeit with that, Jordan, where I’ve thought one thing it was the other and what you have to do is, you have to look into God’s calling. I want to be very clear about that but you also have to also realize that the person who you're reporting on or who your interviewing, God loves them just as much as he loves you.
And they have a soul too and I think, sometimes, in our culture, we can kind of justify an ends to the means, if that makes sense man, and then, God’s called me to do this. I didn’t know if it’s – And it’s one of those things, it’s one of those things where you cannot act on unjustly to someone when you realize that God loves them just as much as he loves you and that’s how you work through it is that, God loves them and you also work through it.
For me is this is also, Jordan, that you know what I mean when I say this is that, when you and I are gone, our family’s going to have a track record, a literal track record, Jordan, of what we said, what we did, Jordan, what we even looked at, and so that keeps me in check too in that I know that I have a daughter who is going to come back, she’s going to be the only one who’s going to come back and look at some of this stuff.
[0:20:03.5] JR: But when you say, you say, okay, you’re talking to the source, you want to believe one thing but that’s not the truth but their child got to, it doesn’t mean you don’t tell the truth, right?
[0:20:13.3] MM: Correct.
[0:20:14.3] JR: Yeah, even if the truth is ugly.
[0:20:16.1] MM: Even if the truth is ugly and there had been a couple of stories where I’m working on one now, in fact, Jordan as we’re talking. Now, we’re going to announce we’re talking but work on one, Jordan, where honestly, man, it’s a tough one just because I’m attached to it in a lot of ways. This is how I grew up, my mom still attends the certain denomination, Jordan, and so – and there is some affiliation definitely with friends who are part of it, Jordan.
But it is one of those things where you have to put that to the side and go, “And they are God’s children” and what God wants, you know, what God wants and loves is when we tell truth to one another. So, because they are God’s child and because they are His, I need to tell the truth on this.
[0:21:00.8] JR: Better His open rebuke than hidden love.
[0:21:03.1] MM: You got that right. I mean, so it’s one of those things where I can say to myself and you and I both have the same friend, Mark Batterson. So, before, I’m going to say just about every – I don’t want to say every, this is about every – before my hands touched the keyboard, I do see it as a worship instrument and because it is that, it helps to me to check myself to go, “Are you telling the truth through this worship instrument?”
[0:21:32.6] JR: Because if not, that’s not worship.
[0:21:34.3] MM: It’s not worship, it’s not.
[0:21:36.1] JR: I love Rick Gordon, definitely. I disagree with Rick Gordon on a lot of things but I really love his definition of worship as anything that brings pleasure to God. Like it’s so concrete, right? We know God’s commands and so if work is going to be worship, yeah, it’s got to be perfectly truthful, right? It’s got to be done with pure motives. You mentioned and justifying the means, I think we’re seeing this all over the place in culture and church. Where are you tempted as a journalist to allow the answer justify the means?
[0:22:03.8] MM: Oh man, one of the things that I have to realize is, is that as a journalist you’ve been called to set apart and so it is one of those things where you’re called to be set apart as we are to advance as Christ’s followers. We are called to be set apart, you can’t all of a sudden become a part of a story because you like someone, Jordan. It’s so – I’m a people person for the most part.
I’m not into ministry because I love people but at the same time, I have to realize that when I am interviewing someone or I’m doing a story on someone, I have to realize I’ve been called to be set apart to be an eyewitness to what’s going on, not to the friend out there who I want to make look good, Jordan, if that makes sense, right?
[0:22:48.4] JR: Yeah, you’re not writing puff pieces. You’re trying to tell truth.
[0:22:52.6] MM: Yes, you’re trying to tell truth. It’s one of those things where you want to be clear that yes, I can ask someone questions, at the same time, be set apart from the questions that I am supposed to be asking to get the truth.
[0:23:08.1] JR: What do you mean by that? Because I actually think that principle is really relevant to journalists but also just managers and anybody working to get to the bottom of something within an organization. What do you mean by that?
[0:23:19.1] MM: Yeah, you know Jordan? I would love to say that I stole this, that I made this on my own but I really did not. My friends say, once again, before I stepped into this, I was really worried about am I forsaking my calling of being a pastor. I was very worried about that, Jordan, in fact, and my buddy, Sam, said, “You know what, Maina? When you step into the room with someone who you’re interviewing, why don’t you think of it as you’re their pastor for that moment and if you can do that, then you may be a pretty good journalist.”
And what he was meaning about all that Jordan, is this, as a pastor, there were lots of times, Jordan will come into my office and they would need advice, Jordan. They would need me to you know, walk them through certain things. What I did not do was not tell them the truth because they were my friend. I still told them the truth and was set apart although, Jordan, that I was their pastor.
And so, it’s one of those things where I think and I think you’re right is that we have to realize whether we’re leading someone, Jordan, or that we’re managing someone or whether we’re interviewing someone that we’ve been called to be set apart and that was – and I think it actually finding a personal thing in here, we are called to be set apart. We see someone the way Christ sees them because when we are a part of something, it’s really hard, Jordan, to speak true when man, I’m in it with them and we’re doing all these things together, Jordan.
If that makes sense, man, it does not mean that you are not doing a life with them. Jordan, it does mean though that when you are leading someone, you can lead them in truth.
[0:25:02.2] JR: So, I love this. Beyond leading them in truth, talk to anyone who is leading anyone, leading them in an interview, leading them on a team, what practical advice would you give to them for how to see the people they lead as Christ sees the people they lead?
[0:25:16.7] MM: Man, you know Jordan, we’re living in a day and age – it’s such a great question by the way, we’re living in a day and age, Jordan, where for how we can identify with someone is how we tend to lead them, Jordan, and so if I can identify with you and I say, “We should not identify with people Jordan” then we’re going to give them more privileges than we do someone that we can not identify with, and that is somewhat of a problem Jordan.
I’m not saying we can identify with people because as people obviously, but we have to set that apart and lead them well, Jordan, because it’s one of those things where we’re all fallen, right? And so because we’re all fallen, it can be quite difficult from time to time to set aside, “Man, I like this person over this person Jordan” and with Christ’s love, we’d be very careful to set aside sometimes our likes and our dislikes because, at the end of the day, we have been called to lead like Jesus leads.
And because Jesus sometimes has to discipline me, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love and like me but sometimes, He has to literally say because I do love Him and I do like you, man, I’ve also got to discipline you as well, and so He has set aside even that sometimes for what we think that definition is “saying.”
[0:26:43.7] JR: I think about James 2, “Believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.” So, one of the ways we lead them is in truth but also number two, yeah, just a lack of favoritism and being able to – forcing ourselves to identify with all of the image bearers that come across our path at work, right? How do you do that for somebody that you don’t naturally identify with, for somebody who doesn’t share your political views or religious views, or race or gender? How do you identify with that person the way that Christ might?
[0:27:15.2] MM: Man, this may sound quite weird but it’s one of those things where I think we see Christ doing throughout the scripture in fact and that is by being curious. It’s one of those things where the work here is I am about someone, it never fails. The more curious I am about someone, I want to know about them, it never fails that I don’t start to really come around to where they’re at.
That does not mean by the way that I breathe with them. It just means that I see them the way Christ sees them and so I think when we are curious and we’re asking questions, it’s the best place to be because oftentimes, we can assume about someone and our assumptions can be wrong, very, very wrong, Jordan, and so when you are asking questions though, you overcome your assumptions.
[0:28:04.4] JR: Yeah, it reminds me of this story that Batterson told in Please, Sorry, Thanks, a book I know you and I both really enjoyed. He’s talking about Jennie Jerome, Winston Churchill's mother, who once dined with two of Britain’s prime ministers on back-to-back evenings and when asked for [inaudible 0:28:21.3] she said of William Gladstone, “When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England and after dining with Benjamin Disraeli, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman.”
It’s like so good but like I think about that a lot when I am meeting new people, especially people I don’t agree with and stuff. Like I want them to think they’re the most interesting person because I want to be curious about them. I want to identify with them, I want to get to know them because if I don’t know them, it’s going to be hard to love them the way that Christ calls me to love them, right?
[0:28:55.8] MM: Very hard, Jordan, very, very hard.
[0:28:58.0] JR: Hey, we talked about your mentor, one of your many mentors, James Brown. You’ve thought a lot about mentorship, you actually just wrote a book about this guy I had never heard of before named Howard Hendricks, who is a mentor to Tony Evans and Jenny Allen, Andy Stanley, a bunch of other people. How do you think, what does mentorship look like in the distinctly God-honored way?
Maybe you can even think of an example from scripture of somebody who is an exceptional mentor to others.
[0:29:26.3] MM: I think it’s amazing, Jordan. It is one of those things, of course, I love researching this for – I spent three years on this topic, Jordan. I ate, breathed, lived it, all that kind of stuff. So, you got me talking about this, I got to be careful. I think mentorship shows you what life could be like.
[0:29:43.9] JR: Ooh, ooh, say more. Yeah, go deeper there, yeah.
[0:29:47.0] MM: I think Jesus, obviously is our savior and Lord but he is also our mentor as well.
[0:29:51.6] JR: Yeah, come on, come on, preach.
[0:29:51.6] MM: And that He shows us what heaven is going to be like and what it can be like in this life and so it’s one of those things where a good mentor it should show you what could happen and I think when that takes place, I think there is a God connection there that cannot be stomped out.
[0:30:14.0] JR: What do you mean by that?
[0:30:14.9] MM: What I meant, I mean, I’ll give you a prime example of this one. I’ll be quick here, Jordan, but there is this guy. His name is in my book as well, Ronel Hunter. I met him in the 5th grade, Jordan, and I was a mess. A complete mess, coming from a single-parent household, my mom was at her wit's end to be fair and so we got to know him through a friend of a friend, so it wasn’t even a direct line to be fair.
He said, “Hey, bring him on over.” It was that bad, Jordan. I was so out, you know I’m in the 5th grade Jordan. You know, I don’t know much and so I literally get out of the car and he is cutting his grass. There’s kids were like playing in the background and I could see two cars and his wife was in the house making dinner in fact and I remember looking at him and I didn’t know these words precisely.
But I remember looking at him going, “I want that” but I didn’t know what that was, Jordan. I remember going, “I want that” and what Ronel Hunter did for almost 40 years in my life has shown me what that still is and what that is still to come even, man, even as an adult man, and he is almost 70 something now or over, 70 years old now, he is still showing me that, what that is.
[0:31:37.5] JR: Yeah, yeah, that’s mentorship, giving a picture what life could look like but man, when defined that way, mentorship can also be really – it could be a heck of an evangelism tool.
[0:31:47.4] MM: Yes.
[0:31:48.1] JR: It puts the pressure off of mentors. It was like, “Hey, just come alongside me, do life with me.” I hate that term, I don’t know why I just said that I hate “do life together” with a passion.
[0:31:55.9] MM: I mean, I don’t know what that is.
[0:31:57.2] JR: Oh gosh, let’s eradicate this from the church’s lexicon. No, but like, “Hey, just come over for dinner with my family and I, coworker” right? Just show them a vision of what life could look like in the kingdom of God, that will preach.
[0:32:10.3] MM: It’s so simplistic, Jordan. It’s so simplistic in the sense of that is not you doing the work, it’s on God to do the work.
[0:32:19.3] JR: Yeah, it’s good. All right, hey man, three questions as you know we land every plane with here on the Mere Christians Podcast. What books are you giving away like candy right now?
[0:32:19.3] MM: The book I’m giving away right now, this may surprise you. There are two, Jordan, quick, David Brooks, How to See People, and number two, The Coupon Mom book. I’ve gotten to know her, Stephanie Nelson is her name, and I love the book. I really do and it is not about owning. I do because she really talks about how she started the Coupon Mom, and so it is one of those deals where Oprah has been on her –
Not on her show, she was on her show in fact, and a whole host of others but she really walks through how she only has UDS 38 to start this company and what shield that USD 38, and then her whole concept of a God story is amazing.
[0:33:13.4] JR: Is she a believer?
[0:33:14.2] MM: She’s a believer.
[0:33:15.2] JR: Oh, fascinating.
[0:33:16.9] MM: I love her book.
[0:33:18.5] JR: That’s such a great answer. Hey, by the way, I forgot to tell you this before we started recording, I’ll tell you here publicly. You interviewed recently the author of a book I finished yesterday and is easily my top five books of this year, Jonathan Eig. Did you read his biography on Dr. King?
[0:33:35.3] MM: I did, Jordan. I literally – I’m probably so tired because I stayed up many a night to read that book. It’s such a thick book.
[0:33:43.6] JR: It’s a thick book.
[0:33:43.6] MM: It’s not for the faint of heart. It is one of those books where there were a couple of nights where it’s like 2:00 in the morning and I can’t put it down.
[0:33:54.5] JR: I have a love-hate relationship with biographies, right? Number one, most biographies are way too freaking long. I care about Winston Churchill, I do not care enough about Winston Churchill to read 2,000 pages on Winston Churchill, right? And this Dr. King was long, it was like 800 pages but I was like, “All right, Dr. King, this is worth the time.” But what I got right, which a lot of our [inaudible 0:34:16.6] is I really couldn’t put it down. I think it was so well done.
[0:34:21.3] MM: I couldn’t put it down or he takes you into places that you go, “How did we land here?” So, I won’t give away the book but it [inaudible 0:34:29.0] book, amazing person too.
[0:34:30.7] JR: You know everybody, so I’m really eager to hear your answer to this, who do you want to hear on the podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?
[0:34:37.1] MM: You know what? I’m going to go back to David Brooks.
[0:34:39.9] JR: That’s a great answer.
[0:34:41.3] MM: I mean, I just – he sort to came to know Christ midlife. In fact, Oprah actually told him this, where she said, “I’ve never seen a person in her career that had been so much that changed so much in their midlife” than what she knew him previously by. That book has changed my life in this sense to not to people who serve me as white noise but to see them as people.
[0:35:06.9] JR: Which book, the newest one? How to Know a Person?
[0:35:09.0] MM: How to Know a Person, like it has allowed me that when someone is serving me, whether it’s the grocery store or in a restaurant that they have a name tag on to call them by name.
[0:35:09.0] JR: It’s really good, I love it. All right, Maina, you’re talking to this global audience of mere Christians, some of them journalists, a lot of them entrepreneurs and baristas and mechanics. What’s one thing you want to tell them before we sign off?
[0:35:32.8] MM: Oh, that’s a hard one, Jordan, I know it’s coming by the way. You know what I would tell them? To just take the step and just whatever it is that they feel like there could be a calling to and I’m going to say this to them too Jordan, whenever they think the fear is of what they can’t do, that’s more than likely it. Man, like I never thought I could write a book, for example, and you know, I’m ADHD, special learning disability, all of those things.
So, if you told me I’d be an author of a book, Jordan, I would have laughed at you but be open to God-size surprises. In fact, pray for them, in fact, because when we’re doing that, we’re allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us in directions that we never thought that we could on our own.
[0:36:18.3] JR: Brother, I love you so much. I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, man, for just, man, you dropped so many truth bombs on this episode, #truthbomb all over the place, right? Serving in your worst times, how to see the people you work with as Christ sees them, how to identify with others, how to mentor well.
Man, you have just given us so much wisdom to lean into the fear and the scary things God might be calling us to do. Hey friends, if you want to learn more about Maina and his story and his work, you could check him out at mainaspeaks.com, and hey, what’s the name of this book? I know we didn’t really talk about the book but pitch the book real quick that you just wrote on Howard Hendricks. What’s the title, what are readers going to take away from it?
[0:37:05.5] MM: It is, The influential Mentor. What I love about the book process or I mean, this one was I got to interview a hundred-plus of Howard Hendricks mentees.
[0:37:16.2] JR: And who was this guy? He was a seminary professor?
[0:37:19.0] MM: He was a seminary professor in Dallas, Texas. So, but if you have gone to a Chick-fil-A, if you have listened to family life today if you’ve heard of Andy Stanley, Tony Evans, Crawford Loritts, Jenny Allen, if you heard any of those people, Howard was behind that, and so what I learned from Howard’s life was, speak into people’s lives where you're at.
And oftentimes, we think, “I got to be somewhere else to do that” and what I learned from these hundred-plus people who I interviewed about him was that they all thought they had a one-on-one relationship with him and that he was able to mentor people from the left and the right. So, it’s one of those things where if you don’t like someone when you're reading the book, hold on, you’re going to like somebody before you end the book because he mentored across the division lines.
[0:38:14.2] JR: Yeah. Did you ever read, Trillion Dollar Coach?
[0:38:17.6] MM: No.
[0:38:18.5] JR: Bill Campbell. So, it sounds like a really similar book. I’m really interested in reading this Howard Hendricks one but Trillion Dollar Coach is one of the books I recommend the most for business leaders if you’re managing any sized team. It’s about this guy named Bill Campbell who is a college football coach that Steve Jobs convinced to move to Silicon Valley to be the first VP of marketing at Apple.
And over time, he became like, the executive coach to every blue-chip CEO in Silicon Valley. His jobs as executive coach at one point, Sergei Brandon, Larry Page of Google, Sheryl Sandberg, Zuckerberg, everybody but he was just this quiet mentor behind the scenes that nobody has ever heard of but they had this massive influence at Silicon Valley, the way that Howard Hendricks has in modern evangelicalism.
[0:39:03.6] MM: I have got to take a look at that book, thank you.
[0:39:06.7] JR: Check it out. I’ll send you a copy. Maina, you're a friend, thank you for having Ing out with us today, brother.
[0:39:11.6] MM: Oh, this was fun. You know, I’ve heard all these podcast episodes before. So, part of me is like, I can’t believe I made it on, number one, and number two, how did I make this on? So, I appreciate it, this is fun man, thank you, Jordan.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:39:26.6] JR: I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hey, we’re releasing this on December 20th, five days before Christmas. Take some time over the next few days to rest with this truth: God is with us. He is with you and not just on that first Christmas day. He is with you right now, through the power of the Holy Spirit and so, there’s no such thing as “Secular work” for you, believer, because secular means without God. God is with us and so, your work is very sacred indeed. Merry Christmas, I’ll see you guys next week.
[END]