The 7 stages of creating with God
The 7 stages everyone goes through when creating with God, why failure may be a sign of God’s favor, and how to journal well in just 11 minutes.
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[0:00:04] JR: Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of Mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as physics teachers, chiropractors, and nannies. That's the question we explore every week, and today I'm posing it to my good friend, Luke LaFevre. He's formerly a board member at Dave Ramsey's company, Ramsey Solutions. Today, he works as the Founder of Holy Work.
Luke and I sat down recently to talk through the seven stages that everybody goes through when creating anything with God, whether it's a book, a painting, homeschooling, curriculum, whatever it might be. We talked about why failure in your work may be a sign of God's favor in your life, and we talked about how to journal well in just 11 minutes, because I know a lot of you want to be journaling and talking to God about your work. Don't know how to do it. Luke is the guy I would point you to. Trust me, you're not going to want to miss this episode with my good friend, Luke LaFevre.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:21] JR: Luke LaFevre, welcome back.
[0:01:23] LL: Yeah. It's so good to talk to you.
[0:01:25] JR: Rare repeat guest here on the Mere Christmas podcast.
[0:01:27] LL: Oh, is it rare?
[0:01:29] JR: It's very rare.
[0:01:30] LL: Oh, my gosh. So much has happened since I did it.
[0:01:32] JR: I think we've done this, like I don't know, 10 times. Well, yes. So, the last time, do you remember where we did this?
[0:01:38] LL: We did it at Ramsey. It wasn't Dave's studio. It was maybe Ken Coleman's or something like that.
[0:01:43] JR: Yeah. The big fancy studio at Ramsey headquarters. You had a terrific, this is back in 2019. You had this terrific job as chief creative officer on the board. Then in October, 2022, you stepped down. What's the story there?
[0:02:00] LL: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So much has happened. Where to begin? Well, when you and I talked 2019 or whenever that was, God had been doing something in me. I mean, the whole time still at Ramsey, I'm still pals with all those guys, and I love Dave. But in 2015, 2016, I mentioned it a little bit on the last podcast, but its when I read Exodus 31. God started to show me this character named Bezalel in Exodus 31 being the first person the Bible mentions is being filled with the spirit.
I read this Exodus 31 thing, and I always kind of joke that Bezalel just ruined my life. So, that's where I heard about you even. That's where you and I became friends. I was really, really happy with Ramsey. I thought I was going to be there my whole life, but I just had this thing inside of me that was pulling me to talk about this process that I didn't even have a name for, really before 2019-ish.
Now, I call it this Holy Work process. What happened to me since I left was me following this pull that I had started to talk about to other people. As I started to categorize it, a pattern showed up and it was the pattern I saw in my life. It was the pattern I saw in other people's lives.
I started to talk about this pattern and I'll run through it real quick, because it all is part of why I left Ramsey and on all these things. We can talk about it more a little bit later, but I saw these as it categorized there were actually seven piles of little note cards in front of me. The first pile was all about this pull, this thing inside to make something, or create, or just do something. There's a Bo Diddley song where the dad is talking about Bo Diddley when he was a kid or something. The dad's like, “The boy's got the boogie-woogie in him and it's got to get out.” You know?
That's how I felt. As I talked to other creatives, I've felt they were feeling that same way. As I've talked more about this, there's so many different people that feel that way. Entrepreneurs, and moms, and these folks who feel a pull to do something, to homeschool their kids or whatever it is. Oftentimes we don't believe that's God. We just think it is our own selfish ambition or something. So, that leads to the second little pile of cards that was about the belief that God put that thing there, which is where Bezalel come in. I was like, “No, God wants to create things with you. He's giving ideas. He wants to do stuff with us.” So, really proving that in this belief section.
Then the third part is all about the practices that we have to be doing while we're seeking him and what he wants to create with this. This is where I'm a big advocate of journaling. I talk about it all the time and how much it's changed my life and other people's lives. The third part is about the practices. Then the fourth part is all about the war that you will go through once you start to follow this pull. Then next up is the wilderness where you just got to work through it and learn some new things, clean up some things, act on some things, learn patience. The next part is called the threshold, where you have to make some decisions and you have to cross some really hard barriers that you need to follow –
[0:05:18] JR: Burn the ships.
[0:05:19] LL: Burn the ships, exactly. Then lastly, eventually you get the permission that you need to go do this thing. Sometimes I call it the purpose. You move from being pulled from the pull to your purpose. That is what I started to really talk about and think about in 2019. I started doing some little courses at Ramsey for people before work started and that kind of stuff. Then, of course, COVID hit in 2020 and it was just chaos and dumpster fires of a year. It was basically just hold on for dear life as a board member and the chief creative officer there. So, we worked through 20.
Then in 21, it was aftermaths of COVID and things like that, but let's see. I still had this gnawing thing and it was actually causing some depression in me. I was like, “God, is this what I'm supposed to be? Am I supposed to be at Ramsey? Am I supposed to be doing this, Holy Work stuff? What do you want me to do?” I didn't think anybody else was noticing any of that angst, but good pals with Jen Sievertsen, who was the CMO there. It was – I think it was right before Christmas of 21.
We were having a conversation, he goes, “Hey, like I can tell something's going on and do some work figure it out.” That kind of thing. I thought nobody else was noticing. I don't really think anybody else I was, but she really was because we were pretty close. I took, I think it was late 21, I had this trip scheduled to go to Montana and go fly fishing and get my head clear. I was reading a book, Eldredge book, I think it was called Fathered by God.
[0:06:59] JR: You're always reading Eldredge.
[0:07:00] LL: Yes. He's great. I haven't read him in a little while, actually. He was going through these four stages of manhood and things like that. I was really praying like, “Okay, God, what do you want me to do?” I felt like he was saying, embrace your role. I feel like that's what I heard from God. I was like, “Okay, well, that means just go all in at Ramsey. I'm going to embrace my role and be the best chief creative officer I can be and do this stuff.” So, that's what I did for the next few months, but like I said, I was, I mean, in all honesty, I was feeling pretty depressed about it. I just didn't have a lot of energy.
I started, “Okay, God. If this is what you want me to do, if this is the cross you want me to bear, I'm going do it.” I was like, “I got to change my habits.” I started working out. I had a lot of different things I started to do to get my brain going again. I did that for probably eight or nine months or something like that. Just like, “Okay. All in. I'm going. God, if this is what you want me to do, I'm going to figure out how to do it, even if it sucks and it's hurting me.” I don't mean to say that everything at Ramsey sucked. It's just my heart was starting to leave and I didn't want it to.
[0:08:11] JR: Yeah.
[0:08:13] LL: I did that for about eight or nine months, but again, it just started to creep in and my wife, we homeschool. So, she takes a weekend before the school year starts. I take the kids somewhere for those couple of nights. So, she gets ready for the year. We went up to Indiana. There's a little water park up there and I was by myself in the mornings. I just started really intentionally praying like, “God, I need clear direction. I need to know if it's time.” I was listening to this devotional. It was talking about Saint Ignatius on this particular day.
Now, I wasn't familiar with him too much at the time, but July 31st is the feast of Saint Ignatius in the Catholic tradition. What the speaker was saying, on the podcast I was listening to, said, “Saint Ignatius was faced with a choice. He was faced with a choice to keep doing what he has always been doing or to make a change and to become who God has really meant him to be.” I remember thinking, okay, is this about to happen, like is this the direction? You can just feel it. I'm like, all right, but I hear that kind of stuff all the time. People, people have to make changes in blah, blah, blah. But what she said after that, she goes, “He was faced with this choice to become who God meant him to be or to stay the same. There's a cross to bear with both.”
When she said that, I was like, “Whoa.” I felt some kind of, I don't know what it was, but I just felt like God was like, “Hey, it's okay. It's time.” I just felt a release, because I was like, “No, God. I'm carrying your cross. I'm doing the hard work, even if it's hard, and I'll do what it takes.” He goes, “Hey, there's a cross to bear with both. it's time and we're going to go somewhere. We're going to do something else now.” Then it was about the business of, oh, crap, kind of a thing. Because yeah, I'd been at Ramsey for almost 15 years and was doing really well there. My family was doing great, made plenty of money, good insurance, all the things, people I loved, my friends were there. So, it was really, really scary.
I got back to the little hotel den thing there. I started writing it out. The next part was, “Oh, man. I got to talk to my wife about this. What's she going to think?” Because if Mandy's not on board, I'm not going to do something. Well, I get home that day and pretty nervous about talking to her. She goes – I said, “Hey, I need to talk to you.” We go out on the back porch and I tell her a version of that story. Normally, she's like, “Hey, Luke, buck up. Get back to work.” But this time I tell her that story and she takes a deep breath and she just goes, “Let me go get my journal.”
That morning she was listening to something. I think it was a talk by a lady named Kristi McLaughlin. She goes and gets her journal and she was listening to Kristi's talk. Kristi said something like, “Sometimes, you have to break your heart to heal your soul.” She goes, “Luke, I thought of you when she said that.” She goes, “I think it's time too.” So, I was like, “Oh, no.”
[0:11:18] JR: Oh, no.
[0:11:20] LL: Mandy, actually got to do it.
[0:11:21] JR: This is happening. I know.
[0:11:23] LL: Because sometimes you rely on your wife to shake you out of your funk or something. So, that was it.
[0:11:29] JR: That was the beginning of the end at Ramsey.
[0:11:31] LL: That was the beginning. The next day I talked to Jen and I was like, “Hey, I think it's time.” Then I talked to Dave. He was not a big fan, but that's okay. He understood. He was very, very, very cool, throughout this whole thing. That was the leaving Ramsey part, which I feel is just the beginning of something.
[0:11:48] JR: Yeah. That's exactly right. But now I mean, you're leading other people through the same process that you yourself agonized over. You're leading them through this Holy Work framework. I want to talk to each stage in a little bit more detail. You've talked about the pull a couple of times, stage one. What does the pull feel like for people, right? You felt the pull to write about Bezalel and this Holy Work process, like what else does the pull look like for people?
[0:12:19] LL: It looks like restlessness. It looks like a feeling of stuck. It looks like unsettledness. That is an uncomfortable place. Sometimes that unsettledness gets caused by someone else, like sometimes you get fired or your spouse leaves you or something, but there is a restlessness there that is often hard to put your finger on. But if you can healthily look at that restlessness and not try to solve it with addictions or escape of some sort, I think that restlessness is God. He is causing some things to happen in your life to cause you to see him and seek him in a different way.
Sometimes we do, we try to solve it ourselves, like I tried to solve it myself when I was younger in my early 20s. I always felt this restlessness, but I didn't go to God with it. I was like, “I'm going to solve this.” So, I started a band and the band is going to be what saves me or sometimes we, yeah, we do go to addictions or escape patterns, but it feels like restlessness, it feels unsettledness, but it also can be a stirring.
My wife, she probably wouldn't describe the pull for her as a restlessness. Although she might, but hers are often stirrings, like when we started to homeschool our kids. She just felt like, “Ah, something's not right. What is it? I think we want to start homeschooling.” I was like, “Oh, geez. We're not one of those people.” But she felt a stirring towards it. That's the pull. It's uncomfortable. That's for sure.
[0:13:53] JR: In stage two is what you call, The Proof, where you start to actually believe that this pull, this stirring inside of you to create something is from God that he's the one doing the pulling. I love the you point Bezalel in Exodus 31 to make this case. How can Bezalel help us see that the pull we feel to create something is from God? We've talked around it, but I want you to be explicit.
[0:14:16] LL: Yeah. Well, if we go back even farther from Bezalel, the fifth word of the Bible is created. In the beginning, God created. Then it says, “Man was made in God's image.” Well, when that is written in Genesis, the only thing we know about God's image at that point is that he was a creator. It is inborn before we are born. It's built into us, because we are made in the image of the creator to make something, to do something, to build something, even if it's a family or it doesn't always have to be a business, or a painting, or a book, or anything like that. But it is built inside of us. It's part of our character.
That's the, I mean, that's the foundation. Genesis 1 and 2. Then you get farther down the line. Of course, people were filled with the spirit before Bezalel, but Abraham, I'm sure was filled with the spirit. I'm sure Jacob, Joseph, all those folks, but the fact that these ancient books, we go back to Exodus and the first person that it's mentioned, as being filled with the spirit is someone God wants to make something with and not just anything.
It's the Ark of the Covenant. It's the tabernacle. It's the tent of meeting. These three things and many more things, but those three were places that would hold God's presence on the earth. That's what he filled this guy with his own spirit to do. It wasn't just to make a house, although that is important. God was using this ordinary man to create something that would hold God's presence on the earth. That being the first person the Bible mentions as being filled with the spirit, I think is incredibly important, because he didn't do it before that.
He did it with somebody he wanted to make something with. If we can start to ingest that and start to believe it and be like, “Okay, God, what do you want to create with me?” As he creates something with you, if that's a family, if that's a business, if that's a book, if that's a painting, if it's just as simple as starting to write something and share it on social media with five people or even lead your family in a devotional, those are the little pulls that he wants to create something new with you. It doesn't have to be like, I'm going to take over the world. It's nothing like that. It could be, I feel pulled to talk to my son about what he's struggling with. God wants to create something with you.
[0:16:50] JR: I think the with is the really important part. The what is the canvas for the with.
[0:16:55] LL: Exactly. The next part is, is like, it's with you, but then it's through you. Then ultimately, it's in you, because as you follow this thing, he wants to create with you, something changes inside of you. You are transformed. That's the beautiful creation about this whole thing is, God wants to change you into what he had in mind before you were born. That's what he's really trying to do.
[0:17:23] JR: I can't remember if I mentioned this in a recent podcast episode. I'm going to pretend I didn't, but in Genesis 2, we see God forming Adam from the dust, right? Then God places Adam in the garden to work that dust and to turn it into something more. There's this theologian I like who says, “The implication here is that as Adam works, he is working on himself.” That's the picture. That's exactly what you're talking about.
All right, fast forward to stage three, the practices of this Holy Work process that guide you through this daily journey of creating something with God. Man, you've talked about one of those practices that you are super passionate about journaling. Man, I know so many people who are seeking to do their work with God. They know journaling can be a primary practice to do so, but like, man, Jordan, journaling is so amorphous. I have no idea where to start. If somebody's feeling the pull right now, Luke, and they've seen the proof that God is calling them to create that thing with them. What specific journaling practice would you recommend that they engage with?
[0:18:34] LL: Yeah. Here's what I would do. Today, when you're listening to this, get done with this podcast. You may be driving. You might be doing some kind of activity. When you get home, go find a quiet place, sit in silence for one minute and just be there. Listen to the sounds around you. Listen to the cars coming by. Listen to your kids hooting and hollering in the other room. Then get a journal and a pen and write for 10 minutes. Don't stop writing for 10 minutes.
[0:19:04] JR: About anything that comes to your mind.
[0:19:05] LL: Anything.
[0:19:06] JR: It's not focused on a topic.
[0:19:08] LL: No. It's not. Don't worry about spelling. Don't worry about grammar. Just start writing. Do not lift your pen and do that for 10 minutes. Something happens at about four or five minutes, because those first few minutes are about the laundry, or what are we going to eat, or I'm worried about a bill, or anything like that, but eventually, you get through all that. Dallas Willard calls those the epidermis-level responses. Those are your skin layer responses. That's, I'm upset with my wife, or I'm angry about this, but eventually that stuff gets worked through. If you don't stop writing, your brain goes into a state where you're free to go into stuff you didn't know was there.
You'll start writing about some things you actually really care about. Just do that for 10 minutes. That's the simplest thing to do today. Then at the end say, “Okay, God. What do you want to do with this?” Now, the reason I tell you to do that is you may or may not come any like, “Oh, and that's what I'm supposed to do with my life?” But what that does is it starts to show you what journaling can do for you on a regular basis.
If you get into that habit, and you do it every day, eventually all the surface layer stuff that normally controls you, “Oh, I’m worried about bills, or I'm worried about my neighbor, or I'm worried about whatever.” Eventually, you get to the point where you're through all that stuff, you're writing about something you really care about, then after you've written that, just take a second and say, “Okay, God. What are you wanting to say to me today?” Because oftentimes we sit down and we pray and we're like, okay, God. I pray for my kids and I pray for this and I pray that we get the bills paid or whatever it is, but oftentimes those are just the surface-level things we need to let go of to him. Those are the cares of this world that he says to let go of to me. He says, don't worry about those things.
The journaling side, when you just write nonstop about all the cares of this world, actually gets you through the first layer so that you can actually hear the whisper of God. Then you just sit there and listen. Sometimes you'll hear something and you'll be like, “Was that me? Was that God?” This is a practice. That's why I call it the practices. Slowly you will start to discern what is, oh, that little thing I heard was actually a little different today and maybe I should pay attention. But building this habit into your life is an incredible, important time. I started doing it in 2010 and have been doing it for these 15 years and what it – for me came out of desperation, because I was just at a really low point and I didn't know what else to do.
I just started writing out my thoughts and feelings, but what happened was it was me seeking first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. Actually seeking him and what he wants for your life and asking what he wants to say to you each day. You do that for a week. You do that for two weeks. You do that for six months. You do that for a couple of years. Your life will be absolutely rocked by what God is leading you towards.
[0:22:11] JR: It’s so good. Hey, so for the sake of time, I want to skip ahead a couple of stages. But I got to say this man, everyone's offering lead magnets, blah, blah, that offer very little value. The guide you give to this Holy Work framework is so good. I was so impressed by how detailed it was, how valuable it was. We're going to skip stages four, The War, stage five, The Wilderness, but if you guys are listening, I want to go deeper into those, go to holywork.com and download this guide that Luke is offering. But stage six of the Holy Work process is The Threshold, right? That moment where you burn the ships for you, this was making the decision to leave Ramsey, right?
In that guide I mentioned, you explain that the threshold is about, “Making a decision and moving forward, despite your fear.” Not moving forward when you have no fear, right? It's not waiting for a sense of peace from God before you move as so many believers are accustomed to doing. I'm curious for you, man. We're in scripture do you see believers? Do you see the people of God moving forward, despite their fear? Who was really an inspiration and encouragement to you as you did this yourself professionally?
[0:23:27] LL: Great question. Abraham, yes.
[0:23:28] JR: Hebrews 11:8.
[0:23:30] LL: His son, Isaac. Me and my dad were just talking about this. I have a son named Isaac as well. Abraham must have been terrified to take his son on that journey up the mountain where God was saying, “I want your son.” He must have been terrified. That's the one that always sticks out to me. He went and he had the intention of doing it and then God provided. He provided the ram and the ram was already up there or is on his way at the same time. Abraham had no idea about that. Not only that story, but when God said go, I mean, literally, that's basically the only instruction he gave Abraham at the beginning of this journey. Just go.
I'm sure Abraham was terrified to do that. The threshold is about boiling water, for example. You think of a threshold as crossing the front threshold of someone's house. That's a nice, simple, welcoming step. When you think of the threshold of boiling water, at some point, that water is really, really hot. Then it crosses a threshold and it starts boiling. Eventually, this pull, if it starts as a little seed in your belly and then it gets a little bigger and it's a nut. Then it turns a golf ball and then it turns to a melon.
Eventually, that thing gets so big you have to do something about it, even if you're terrified. That's what boiling water is. Eventually, that water is going to boil. You've crossed the threshold and you have to make a decision. It's where people get so sick and tired of being sick and tired that they're ready to make a change and they do something about it. That's that threshold. I was terrified to leave Ramsey, but at the same time, I had a lot of confirmations as well. So, Abraham and Isaac is what immediately comes to mind.
[0:25:20] JR: Yeah. That's a great example. Every time I hear believers talk about waiting for a sense of peace. I'm like, look at Christ in the garden of Gethsemani.
[0:25:29] LL: Yeah. He’s bleeding blood or sweating blood.
[0:25:33] JR: Sweating blood, but he did it because those were the good works God prepared in advance for him to do, right, as a means of loving us, whatever that pull is inside of you. That may be the good works God prepared for you to do as a means of loving your neighbors yourself and glorifying him. Hey, so I hope you don't mind me asking this. If you do, we can cut it.
[0:25:56] LL: Okay.
[0:25:56] JR: But dude, right after you cross the threshold, your wife is diagnosed with cancer, like months after.
[0:26:03] LL: We're still in it. Yeah, I left Ramsey. I'm following this thing and I took October and November off just as a sabbatical kind of thing. Then November, December, November, I came down and saw you. Then December, we had Christmas. Then in January, my wife was diagnosed with stage 2A breast cancer.
[0:26:22] JR: Yeah. Here's what I have to know, because I want to listen to yours, in that moment, did you doubt whether it was a mistake to cross the threshold? Did you doubt whether it was God's will?
[0:26:33] LL: 100%.
[0:26:35] JR: Yeah. Talk about how you've worked through that.
[0:26:38] LL: At the time I was like, “Well, okay, I'm just going to go get a stable job. We have to batten down the hatches. We need to be stable blah, blah, blah, blah.” But every time I would go down that path, it was out of major fear. I would just feel like that's not right. That's not right. It had me go back and think about this framework that we're talking about. I know we jumped over the war here, but when you follow where God is pulling and you believe it's him and you're doing the practices and actively seeking him, you will face war.
The enemy wakes up when you do. He is waiting with a machine gun, not just trying to get you to stub your toe. He wants to kill, steal, and destroy, and cause you to doubt everything, and cause you to doubt God and your faith. How I worked through it was - it was actually Andy Andrews to help me a lot, whether he knows it or not. He gave me one of his books called, The Seven Decisions. One of those decisions was the decided heart. I felt God was calling me here and I had a decided heart that we were going to follow, even when the war and the waves are going crazy.
Somehow over the course of this last year and a half, as Mandy went through six months of chemo, seven weeks of radiation, double mastectomy, all this stuff. It's just crazy to – and that's just the beginning of it. I won't go into all the details of the insanity that has happened over this last year. I have more peace in our lives than I can explain. I cannot explain it. It's not to say that everything is perfect, like we have fear. We are working in spite of our fear, but I know this is where God is pulling us. We know that the war is real. How we worked through it was I would go to all the chemo appointments with her. I would be with her as much as I could. I'm starting to see, oh, no, God pulled me away at the right time, so that I could be with her.
In my own selfish desires, “No, God, I got to build this business. I got to start this Holy Work thing. What do you want to do? What do you want to do in those first six months?” He was like, “Your most Holy Work is to be right here with this woman.” Honestly, that's what got us through. We're still in it, man. She literally just finished her radiation last week. My hope is that part of this is it's been so intense for us this last year and a half, so that I can help people walk through their intense things when they start to follow.
[0:29:18] JR: Yeah. Man, I just want to encourage you here for a minute and any other listeners who have experienced something similar, right? They cross the threshold. They follow what they thought was God's call and now they're doubting it because they're facing trials. Listen, one thing God promises us over and over again is trials. This persecution is a hard – your negative circumstances don't mean that's not God's going. In fact, I would argue more likely the opposite is true.
Listen, I don't think anybody listening to this podcast would take a test and circle in, yes to the question, do you believe in the prosperity gospel? But, oh boy, I think we fall for this lie in some far more subtle ways, right? I've heard people who have made leaps like you did when they left Ramsey and when they did, they experienced nothing but blessing. They say, “Oh, that's what happens when you follow God's calling to life.” But if that's true, then the inverse must also be true, that when you follow what you perceive to be God's call and it doesn't work out and your wife is diagnosed with cancer. Oh, that must not be God's call. That's a lie. Our obedience and God's favor on this side of eternity are not always connected. See Job as a case in point. See Paul as a case in point. See Luke LeFevre as a case in point. Amen.
[0:30:38] LL: Amen. One of the most amazing things that helped us get through was one of Philip Yancey's books, Disappointment with God. He was interviewing a man. I think his name was Douglas. Douglas had been through it. Lots and lots of intense things, car accidents. He got so many things. There's this part where Yancey is saying, “So, tell me about your disappointment with God.” Douglas says, “I'm not disappointed with God.”
He says, “We tend to think life should be fair, because God is fair, but God is not life. If I confuse God with the physical reality of life by expecting constant good health, for example, then I set myself up for a crashing disappointment. God's existence, even his love for me does not depend on my good health. If we develop a relationship with God apart from our life circumstance, then we may be able to hang on when the physical reality breaks down and we can learn to trust God in spite of the unfairness of life. That really helped me through this last year.
[0:31:41] JR: That's so good, man. Hey, so stage seven of this process. What do you call this?
[0:31:46] LL: I used to call it, The Permission. I still might and that's what you would read on the guide you were talking about earlier, but I am debating on calling it purpose, because as you go through this pull, and you follow the practices, and you believe it's God, and you fight through the war and you work through the wilderness, and you cross these thresholds, you find your purpose. It's not always perfect and you will start this whole process again. But I like to call it purpose from your pull to your purpose.
Often that means, hey, you finally have the permission to go after the thing you had in your heart. The desire that God put in your heart, but as you're transformed through this process, you do find, oh, this is where I feel God's hand on me, where I feel him guiding. I'm not doing this. That's where your real purpose comes from, because he had something in mind for you before you were born.
[0:32:47] JR: I know you know this, but some of our listeners don't. You were one of the first people to help me feel that sense of permission and purpose that, yes, this was the good works that God prepared to advance for me to do back in 2019. I transitioned from CEO to chairman of the board of the tech startup I was running on March 1st, 2019. I think on March 3rd. I think March 1st is a Friday. Man, it must have been March 4th, March 5th, something like that. The following Monday or Tuesday, I get an email from Luke LeFevre, who I've never met before. Just a long email, a book of an email about Bezalel and called to create and finding my first book in a goodwill, which I didn't know if that was a compliment or an insult at the time, which you could – now as a compliment. Pearl Jam records and called the Great Line in the Walls of Goodwill.
[0:33:39] LL: Pearl Jam sold a lot of records, by the way.
[0:33:41] JR: Sold a lot of records, a lot of records. But no, it was a massive encouragement to me and just an encouragement to any of you listeners who have already made it to stage six or seven of this process. You've already found the work you believe God created you to do. Look to your left, look to your right, and find people who need encouragement to lean into the pull, the proof or some of the other stages of this process, because man, like that was a game changing email for me. Luke, I'm sure you've had people do that for you, right?
[0:34:14] LL: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you think this will be a Jordan-Luke love fest here, but I mean, you've reciprocated that so much. It was just me saying, “Hey man, keep going.” Because I felt like God was doing something. I didn't know I was going to have even more of a part of it over the next couple of years, but yeah, lots of people have done that for me. The encouragement and someone breathing life into you from a place they've been before is amazing.
[0:34:43] JR: I love it. Hey, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? Like if I open up your Amazon order history, what am I going to see popping up over and over again?
[0:34:54] LL: The War of Art, Steven Pressfield.
[0:34:56] JR: You love The War of Art.
[0:34:58] LL: I love The War of Art. It's just, I'm a nine on the Enneagram and that is troublesome a lot of the time. There's a quote about nines on the Enneagram that says, “They start off slow, but then they taper off.” The War of Art is, no, I got to get up. I'm going to go work out. I'm going to write. I'm going to work. It's a constant decision. The War of Art talks about the resistance that is constantly getting that. Another one is The Voice of the Heart by Chip Dodd. I'll recommend that as always. As you're journaling, it helps you acknowledge what you're actually feeling. One, I'm talking about all the time now. I just talked about it already is Andy Andrews booked, The Seven Decisions. It's helped me immensely. He just talked about more people fail at what they attempt, because of an undecided heart than for any other reason. When you exhibit a decided heart and commit yourself to the fulfillment of that destiny you've chosen, your life will never be the same. That's just incredible. Those are three right now. I could keep going. Got a big list.
[0:35:55] JR: It's great man. Hey, who would you want to hear on this podcast? Talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?
[0:36:03] LL: I think I said last time I was on, I think I said, Denzel Washington. You didn't make that happen yet, but –
[0:36:07] JR: Yeah, you did. You did say Denzel. I forgot. We still got the bat signal out for Denzel.
[0:36:14] LL: I thought about this question the other day. You can cut out my searching here. I thought I wrote something. Oh, you know who it was? It was Chris Pratt.
[0:36:22] JR: That's a good answer.
[0:36:22] LL: Do you know anything about his story?
[0:36:24] JR: I don't know a ton.
[0:36:25] LL: Yeah. I don't know a lot of them either, but I just have found some of the things he said about God and how Jesus loves you. He said them on some very big public stages. I would love to just hear some of the deeper stuff about what's going on in that guy's life. Chris Pratt is one in mind.
[0:36:42] JR: I just think he'd be a fun. I bet he's a good hang.
[0:36:45] LL: I bet he is too. I bet he is too. He'd be good.
[0:36:48] JR: We got some ends with Chris.
[0:36:49] LL: And Bono. Can you get Bono?
[0:36:52] JR: Oh, man. We've never shot for Bono. We got to shoot for Bono. We should have done it when he was promoting this autobiography, which by the way, have you read this?
[0:37:02] LL: I love it. It was the next book I was going to say something about.
[0:37:04] JR: Really? Marc Barrison did like a whole five minutes last time I was hanging with him on why I had to read that. I still remembered it. Sorry, Marc.
[0:37:12] LL: Oh, I love it. I have a little quote here from one. I mean, he's just so hard on his sleeve and he goes, “Why would I put everything at risk again?” I think they were talking about Achtung Baby album or something. “What's got into me? What gets into me? Why am I prepared to bet the house or at least the band on these intuitions? This instinct that if we step into the darkness as artists, we will depend more on the light that somehow, we'll find an open window, because there is no manifest destiny. There is no guarantee that this will work out.” I mean, that's the pull. That's the creativity. I believe God has a plan, but it doesn't mean that million-dollar checks are going to come and make your life all easy. Yeah. I loved that book.
[0:37:57] JR: Dang. Okay, great. This is a good Sabbath read. I love reading stuff like that.
[0:38:02] LL: Yeah. Me too.
[0:38:04] JR: All right. Luke, you're talking to this global audience of Mere Christians, very diverse vocationally, some of them would describe themselves as creatives like you. Some of them would not. What's one thing from our conversation or maybe something we didn't say that you want to reiterate before we sign off.
[0:38:21] LL: I want you to imagine yourself standing in New York City, Times Square. If you're listening to this. You're in the middle of Times Square. It's busy. It's everywhere, cars, lights, noises, and you look down and you have a little rope tied around your waist and you see the rope go off into the streets and around the corners of the building. Now, I want you to imagine God standing on the coast of California looking out at the most amazing ocean. He's got a little smile on his face. He looks down at his calloused hands, because he's been pulling this rope for a long time and he has somebody in mind. He has you in mind.
He just gives it a little nudge and you all the way over in New York City feel a little nudge on that rope that's tied around your waist and to follow this rope, yeah, you're going to have to go through a lot of work, and war, and wilderness just to get out of New York City. Then you'll have to go through dark nights in Nebraska, and the long planes of Colorado without even knowing where you're ultimately going, but know this, he is on the other side. He has this plan for you to be with him looking out at this amazing ocean and he's slowly pulling you there.
[0:39:33] JR: Dang. The fire way to end. Buddy, I got to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day, for the glory of God and the good of others for not just - for following the pull, man, and leaning into, and sharing, not just learning about this, but sharing what you've learned about this process. You are a true artist, because you are sharing these learnings with the world in this super clear and super helpful Holy Work framework that I just love.
By the way, I think I told you this. I was hanging out with a bunch of people recently and they were all, this was right before the new year. They were like, “Man, I want to get good at journaling.” I knew that you were like doing this journaling course. So, I texted you, I was like, “Hey, I've got seven people who want to do this right now.” You were like, “Too bad. They're not welcome.” But you're doing this again, right? You're doing this journaling course. Tell us about this.
[0:40:26] LL: We're doing a Holy Work February journaling course. It's going to start on February 20th. It will be for six weeks. We will meet on Zoom every Tuesday morning from 6:30 to 7:30 AM, Central time. What we're going to do is we're going to work through six weeks of building this life-changing habit into your life. So, each of the weeks build on each other. Then every other day of the week, you will do it on your own. I'll send out a prompt for you that just gives you some things to think about, but you'll be doing the practice that we learn in the group class together. February 20th, it starts. You can sign up at holywork.com.
The details will be there. It's going to be incredible. Every time we do it, it's so unexpectedly powerful. It's not just me talking the whole time. It's an experiential workshop that you are doing this and building the habit into your life, and like I said earlier, what happens is we know the benefits of journaling. We know the benefits of it. You can go to Huberman and hear a lot of the benefits, but what happens is we don't set aside the time to do it.
What this course does is it gives you a dedicated hour where I'm guiding you. You don't have any distractions. When people are in that headspace and they're focused on what God wants to do in their lives, amazing things happen. So, I'd encourage you to come. It's 199 normally, but for podcast people that are listening to this, if you type in the code 50, 5-0 off, O-F-F, that'll give you 50 bucks off this thing. I would just love to see you there.
[0:42:06] JR: That's awesome. I love it. Luke, brother. I appreciate you. Thanks for hanging with us today.
[0:42:10] LL: Absolutely, man. Such a pleasure. I love you, dude.
[OUTRO]
[0:42:14] JR: There are a few people who are more genuine or thoughtful than Luke LeFevre. I love that guy. I genuinely love everything he's doing, and know I'm not getting an affiliate fee on the course, but I have sent tons of friends to this course who are super excited to walk through it with Luke. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to the Mere Christians podcast. I'll see you next week.
[END]