Signposts of eternal hope
Jordan Raynor sits down with Lindsey Ray, a nurse practitioner, to talk about why “obedient absence” from your kids is better than “disobedient presence,” how to avoid envy of other people’s callings, and Jordan’s life-changing hire that Lindsey plans to copy (and you can too).
Links Mentioned:
[0:00:05.3] JR: Hey everybody, welcome to The Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work, for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I’m bringing you a conversation with a somebody who loves Jesus and also loves their career and is pursuing world class mastery of their craft, we’re talking about each guest path to mastery, their daily habits and how their faith influences their work.
Hey, as you guys know, some of our most popular episodes have been with people who are world class at what they do but not at all world famous and I’m bringing you another one of those episodes today with Lindsey Ray. One of my wife’s best friends since college. She’s a masterful nurse practitioner, exceptional what she does, is measured by her peers, as well as my own personal experience back in December.
Lindsey actually sent me to the emergency room, that was fun. Fun fact, Lindsey and I actually discovered a few years ago that we’re related. Like 10 years after she and I met, we figured this out. Some weird long distant cousins, I don’t know, can’t even remember the full story but Lindsey and I recently sat down and did very unglamorous setting of my closet at home while she and her family were in town for the weekend.
We talked about why your obedient absence from your kids may be better than your disobedient presence with them, really interesting section of the conversation. We talked about how to avoid envying other people’s callings and just staying committed to the work god has given you to do and we talked about the life changing hire that I recently made and Lindsey’s plan to copy it at home.
By the way, spoiler alert, you can do this too. It’s been a game changing hire for my wife and I to be more present with our kids at home and I’m going to make you listen to the episode to figure out what that is. Without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with one of my best friends, Lindsey Ray.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:02:14.5] JR: Lindsey, thank you for doing this while you’re in town.
[0:02:16.9] LR: No problem, I’m excited.
[0:02:20.3] JR: This is what real podcasting looks like, in the closet.
[0:02:23.3] LR: It’s fancy.
[0:02:24.2] JR: While our kids sleep upstairs, podcasting isn’t glamorous, right?
[0:02:29.3] LR: Yeah.
[0:02:29.7] JR: This is something else. Hey, if you guys are enjoying the Call to Mastery, you have Lindsey to thank I think. Because I think you’ve been asking me for three years to do a podcast, you’re a big fan of podcasts yourself.
[0:02:43.2] LR: I am.
[0:02:44.1] JR: Why do you love the medium? I’ve talked about this before like I don’t listen to podcasts, I’ve never been a huge fan of medium. I’m becoming one but why do you love the medium for so long.
[0:02:52.6] LR: Well, to be honest, it stemmed from me having such a long commute to work and I wanted a way to fill that time and once I had stumbled upon a couple of podcast that I really liked and once you subscribe, there you go.
[0:03:06.3] JR: You’re in.
[0:03:07.3] LR: You’re in, you’re all in. Yeah.
[0:03:09.7] JR: We were talking earlier today, you just took a new role, still as a nurse practitioner but at a closer office to your home. Your commute’s going down a pretty much nothing. What’s going to be left? What are you going to be listening to?
[0:03:23.7] LR: I’m going to have to choose a couple of favorites and unsubscribe to the rest probably.
[0:03:26.6] JR: What are those favorites?
[0:03:27.7] LR: My favorite, the one I’ve listened to the longest is The Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey.
[0:03:32.3] LR: Yeah.
[0:03:33.0] JR: I’m also a big fan of the Popcast with Knox McCoy and Jamie Golden.
[0:03:37.9] LR: Yeah.
[0:03:38.9] LR: I mean, of course, the Call to Mastery.
[0:03:40.5] JR: Of course, that’s getting cut, let’s face it. Popcast and Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey are going to stand the test of time. What makes those shows great in your opinion?
[0:03:51.0] LR: I would say, both of them have kind of been going for a while. I think they just probably gotten really good at what they do.
[0:03:57.0] JR: I didn’t know the Popcast has been going that long.
[0:03:58.6] LR: It has, I mean, I would say at least three or more years, I think. I mean, I think that they just gotten really good at what they do, you know? Over the years. I enjoy on the Happy Hour, I enjoy the guest that she has on, It’s somebody different, a different story every week and the Popcast, they’re pretty funny.
[0:04:15.9] JR: Yeah, they’re entertaining.
[0:04:17.6] JR: Yeah, somebody suggested that we get the Popcast hosts on the call to mastery because these are – they love Jesus.
[0:04:22.9] LR: They are Christians, they do, they also have a second podcast called The Bible Binge.
[0:04:26.5] JR: I’ve heard of this.
[0:04:28.0] LR: Yes, they’re great, that would be a great. Yeah.
[0:04:30.5] JR: That would be fun, we got to get them on, what are their names?
[0:04:33.8] LR: Knox McCoy.
[0:04:34.7] JR: Knox McCoy, what a name.
[0:04:35.8] LR: Yeah, and Jamie Golden.
[0:04:36.7] JR: I want to be friends with a guy named Knox McCoy. That’s a great name. Can you give the really quick timeline of your career from college to now? Medicine’s like so predictable, right? You’re in school where we met, you majored in nursing, right? What’s the trajectory from there?
[0:04:55.6] LR: I mean, I’m one of these unusual ones that knew very early on what I wanted to do with my life. I knew exactly that I wanted to be a nurse practitioner from the time I was a junior in high school and so that was the path I was on it. Yes, I went to FSU where we met, majored in nursing, finished my bachelors in nursing when I was only 20.
[0:05:19.5] JR: I forget you’re younger than me.
[0:05:20.4] LR: Yeah.
[0:05:21.0] JR: Barely, let’s not get ahead of ourselves, yeah.
[0:05:25.5] LR: In the nursing world, you have to work for a couple of years before you can even apply to nurse practitioner school. You have to have some nursing experience. I got my two years under my belt and then immediately applied to the family nurse practitioner program at UNF, University of North Florida in Jacksonville where I live.
I did that program part time so it took me three years to finish that, so I finished when I was 26 and started at the clinic I’m at now.
[0:05:54.7] JR: How long have you been working there?
[0:05:56.5] LR: Six and a half.
[0:05:56.6] JR: Six and a half years? Okay. You’re a pretty rare breed amongst millennials. One, knowing what you want to do from such an early age and then sticking with it. I mean, that’s an incredibly rare thing. I think that’s a gift. What was it about medicine that as a junior and high school you’re like yup, this is the thing?
[0:06:16.5] LR: It started, I wanted to actually be a missionary nurse.
[0:06:18.9] JR: I didn’t know this.
[0:06:20.1] LR: That was the original idea. I think it truly was from – I mean, being raised in the church, in youth group and kind of having this idea of I want to serve others, you know? It felt very much like serving Jesus to me to be serving others in healthcare and I thought, if I can do this overseas or you know, serve the underserved kind of thing then it sounded like a great thing to me and that’s really what I wanted to do and that kind of morphed from missionary nursing into being a family nurse practitioner but early on. I mean, I decided that was the path I wanted to take.
[0:06:54.5] JR: The draw was like very much this is a very tangible expression of serving others.
[0:06:59.8] LR: Exactly, of Jesus’ love and service.
[0:07:01.7] JR: Yeah, I love it. Most people change what they want to do 10 times in college and in the years after graduation, I’m one of that majority. What do you think made you so focused, other than this desire to serve? Why do you think you stay on that path?
[0:07:22.4] LR: I also just think it’s a little bit my personality. I’m kind of just a stick to it kind of person, you know? I decided I wanted to run a half marathon, I trained and I ran a half marathon, you know? I decided I wanted to have babies without pain medicine, I had babies without pain medicine, you know?
[0:07:36.2] JR: Which is still insane.
[0:07:36.7] LR: It is insane.
[0:07:37.9] JR: We talk about this a lot.
[0:07:38.9] LR: I don’t recommend it.
[0:07:39.8] JR: In Ray - Raynor vacation we’re talking about this.
[0:07:42.9] LR: Yeah, I’m just sort of that, maybe it’s stubbornness but I make up my mind, I say I’m going to do it, that’s what I’m going to do, you know? That’s kind of how it was, I just was like no, I decided, this is what I’m doing and that’s what I’m doing.
[0:07:52.8] JR: Yeah, and you have no regrets of like committing to something that early in your career?
[0:07:56.7] LR: Not at all. I literally feel like I’m living the dream of what I’ve wanted to do from the time I was probably 14.
[0:08:05.9] JR: I think most people who are truly achieving mastery of a field, have a moment or maybe a season of their careers that they can look back on and say, you know what? That was the moment where I realized, I’m good at this thing. Right? I’m curious if there was like a particular moment for you where, like yup, I’m good at this, this is what I was meant to do in service of others.
[0:08:28.9] LR: I think that’s happened a couple of times because I’ve done this as a couple of different roles. First I was a nurse and I worked in an ICU, intensive care and I remember for the first, at least two years, there was this corner in the hallway that to the entrance of the ICU and every time I would round that corner, going to work, I just get a sick feeling in my stomach like it’s just – there’s so much responsibility, you’re caring for people’s lives. I mean.
This is a really big deal and I was –
[0:08:56.3] JR: In their most fragile state.
[0:08:57.4] LR: In their most fragile state. I mean, possibly at the end of their lives, you know? Or often times at the end of their lives. I was also so young doing that so I just remember feeling sick every day going to work, thinking you know, can I really do this? Am I really enough, you know, to handle this and I would say , after a good couple of years, I finally started to feel you know, "Okay, I’m getting better at this, I do feel like this is where I’m supposed to be, what I’m supposed to be doing."
Eventually, by the time I transitioned out of that role, into the nurse practitioner role, I was already, I was an assistant nurse manager, of the ICU, I was doing rapid response which is where you know, if someone on a regular floor is concerned about their patient, I’ll call you to come assess them and you know? I feel like I had really advanced to proficiency and what I was doing by that time and then now, I would say, I feel that way as well in the nurse practitioner role but again, it was almost like starting over in a new role but yes, I have gotten to a point where I feel like yeah, I’m good at this. I enjoy doing it, I think my patients enjoy coming to see me, I think I take good care of people, so yeah.
[0:10:06.8] JR: You're a good example of I think somebody who has followed the conventional millennial career wisdom which I really attack pretty hard in Master of One, right? Follow your passions, follow your dreams, do whatever makes you happy and I attack it because, you know, I think a lot of us expect that when we get that first job, that aligns with the preexisting passions so for you, maybe that was nursing.
We expect to have this like cosmic level, ultimate sense of happiness, like almost instantly, right? But I got to imagine, especially those first few years as a nurse, there was a lot of crap. Maybe literally, also figuratively. I’m just curious to get your perspective on that like was it harder than you expected, did you find that your happiness, your vocational joy kind of grew over time. What does that look like for you?
[0:10:56.9] LR: Yes, I definitely think, even now, there are times when it just kind of can feel like work, you know? I think that’s true for anybody, you’d be lying if you said there weren’t days that it was just work to you, you know? It can feel especially when there seems to be you know, work politics or organizational stuff going on or –
[0:11:16.5] JR: Or cleaning up feces?
[0:11:18.1] LR: Cleaning up feces for sure is a deterrent but yeah, I mean, you know, you can start to feel a little bit like you’re a workhorse, you know? A little bit. Even though I know I’m doing what I meant to do and it does feel like a dream most of the time, I still think yes, you can – it’s all in your perspective, you have to remind yourself all the time, you know?
This is my calling, this is what I’m supposed to be doing and not get yourself bogged down by work drama or politics or you know, whatever the case may be.
[0:11:48.7] JR: Or circumstances.
[0:11:49.3] LR: Or circumstances, yes.
[0:11:50.2] JR: Right, and just recognizing that passion does grow with competency over time. Joy comes in serving others well, getting to a place where you’re masterful at your craft to serve others well, right? I’m curious to get your perspective on – I think this idea in fields like law or medicine, right? That it is innate intelligence that is the best predictor of mastery, right? Rather than grit. I’m curious to get your perspective on that. What is it that most predicts mastery of your craft?
[0:12:23.3] LR: I would say, I think you can kind of teach anybody anything. Yeah. I think that maybe it’s the people who are a little bit naturally more book smart or whatever that pursue those careers, I don’t know. But I do think there is another element to it and I think that that’s probably at least for me, in medicine, I think it’s being able to relate to people. I think that you have to be a little bit of a people person and be able to communicate well, talk with patients, talk with families.
You hear all the time in medicine and especially you know, he’s a good doctor but he has terrible bedside manner. Then, are you really great? You know, if you have terrible bedside manner? Maybe, I guess if all people cared about is purely life or death which is important. But a lot of people, when they’re going, when they’re choosing what healthcare provider to go see, they also want someone they feel like they can talk to and that they feel like listens to them and you know –
I think that those people skills and those communications skills and things like that are also really important. I think it’s both.
[0:13:23.6] JR: That brings up an interesting question. How, aside from you know, life-death ratios. How do you measure mastery in your craft? You don’t win awards, you're not publishing papers as a practitioner. When you pick doctors for your kids, you pick doctors for yourself. How do you distinguish masterful practitioners from not?
[0:13:51.0] LR: From an organizational standpoint, right? We get numbers, we get charts that show us this is how many patients you saw and this is how much revenue you generated for our company and I think that has nothing to do with being masterful at your craft.
I mean, it’s great if you can be efficient, yes, you want to make money for your company because that’s what keeps places running. That’s really not what makes you great. I think how you measure success is I mean — I get probably somewhere between 3,000 and 3,500 patient visits per year.
I’m sitting in a room with a patient for 20 or so minutes, over 3,000 times in a year. That’s my chance to make an impact on that life and so when we get comment cards that say I love seeing Lindsey, you know, she makes me feel so comfortable, she makes me feel like I can tell her anything, she really listens to my concerns.
That’s what makes me feel like I’m doing an exceptional job, not necessarily you cranked through this many patients in a day. Because anybody can walk in a room and spend five minutes with a patient and walk out and the patient feels like nothing really even happened and they can still have 'good numbers' but it’s really the difference you’re making in lives that matters in my opinion.
[0:15:13.8] JR: That’s an interesting perspective because really, what you’re talking about is masterful medical professionals are serving both their employer well, by putting up the right numbers. While also finding a way to serve their customer well, right? Who you’re serving at the end of the day which for you are your patients, right?
It’s not either or, it’s both and you guys. I was interviewing actually another nurse practitioner for Master of One, our friend Jessica Jones here in Tampa and I was basically asking like, how do you pursue master of your craft as a medical professional. Her answer is like so underwhelming but I think there was a lot of brilliance in it, she was like, "Yeah, mastery of medicine is just mundane. It’s just like following the protocols and like doing your job like really well, like by the book." Has that been your experience, is the pursuit of mastery mundane in medicine?
[0:16:11.5] LR: We do make a lot of decisions about the care of patients based on current guidelines or current protocols. There is an element to it that is you need to be going to conferences every year and you need to be educating yourself on what are the current guidelines, what has changed in the past year, how are we treating COPD now, how are we treating hypertension now?
Is there something that I need to know? Is there new medicine out there that I need to be using? I mean, I would say, there’s definitely an element that’s that. I also think just like I said before that there’s this huge communication piece, you know? With patients. You need to be able to communicate why it’s important that they take care of their health.
The reasons behind that and what can happen if they don’t and you needed to be able to do a good job communicating that to them because that’s really part of your job too is educating the patient, not just making the right decisions for them but helping explain why it’s important and then helping them to make the decision for their own health, including them as part of the decision making as well.
[0:17:15.1] JR: I’m curious, what are one of the common threads of mastery I talk about this in Master of One is this principle of frequent discomfort, right? Masters never settle for where they’re at, they never plateau or always putting more weight on the bar and refusing to get comfortable in their craft. What are the symptoms that you’re getting too comfortable in your role when you’re doing 3,000 patient visits a year?
[0:17:41.5] LR: Right, I think this happens a lot where especially in medicine, you have to remind yourself all the time that this is people’s lives that you’re dealing with and you don’t want to get too comfortable because if you do, you can miss something really important. I mean, also, there’s something called liability.
[0:17:58.2] JR: Right, there’s also that.
[0:17:59.9] LR: There’s also that. You want to be –
[0:18:01.5] JR: That’s a pretty helpful deterrent, yeah.
[0:18:02.7] LR: Yes, absolutely. It’s definitely something that is at the forefront of your mind all the time. We’re always thinking about, am I missing something here, this happens where you – after the patient leaves, you look something up as far as guidelines go or sometimes for diagnosis or treatment of one of the guidelines to the treatment of this, you know? Or you collaborate with you know, one of the physicians or a colleague and say, "Hey, you know, this is the situation, let me just bounce this off of you and tell me what you think about this."
Because the last thing we ever want to do is miss something that’s really important with someone’s health, you know? I think that constantly being aware of that and then – because sometimes it happens, right? You see a patient, you think it’s one thing, you treat it one way and then you get to work next day and you find out, that patient didn’t get any better, they went to the ER last night or something and it’s a wakeup call and you think, "Was I paying attention, was I looking for the right things, did I treat it the right way?" You just have to always be aware, always be on the top of your game and thinking about what you need to do next.
[0:19:11.2] JR: Yeah, that requires a certain level of humility, I can’t remember if I told you this. When you asked me to go to the emergency room back in December.
[0:19:18.8] LR: I’m sorry about that Jordan, okay. I care about you and your wife and your children.
[0:19:22.8] JR: Thank you very much. You care about the Call to Mastery. You want the podcast to be joined. I totally get it.
[0:19:28.0] LR: I more want your children to still have a father so there’s that.
[0:19:30.9] JR: After I went to the emergency room and they gave me this prescription for antibiotics, I went to Publics, I dropped off the prescription and I asked the pharmacist, I was like, "Hey, I’m assuming that this antibiotic is supposed to replace the antibiotic I’m already on." She’s like, "No, I’m pretty sure you’re supposed to take both," I’m like, "Okay, that sounds weird but all right, I’ll go home and take both."
I was really impressed like 30 minutes later, Publics called back. And she’s like, "Hey, you know what? I wasn’t super confident about that, even though I acted confident to you. I went to my supervisor and asked for clarity and you’re actually like, not supposed to take both. Hopefully you haven’t done that." But no, I appreciate it because it required a level of humility being she’s filling prescriptions every single day. I think for anybody, mastering any craft, it requires this constant sense of humility that you don’t know everything. And to constantly be asking the right questions.
We were talking about this earlier today. I wish I had the mic on then but we didn’t. Talk about your daily routine. From the moment you wake up, to the moment you go to bed, what does a day in the life of Lindsey Ray look like?
[0:20:38.6] LR: Okay, I start seeing patients pretty early like 7 AM. I’m up early.
[0:20:45.3] JR: What time do you wake up?
[0:20:47.4] LR: I wake up usually between 5:30 and six and I don’t have a long morning routine. I pretty much am up, get dressed and ready, I get our youngest, we have three kids, I get the youngest one dressed and ready and then I’m out the door. My husband does the rest with the kids and does the daycare drop-off and the whole shebang. As I mentioned earlier, I have a long commute and then I start seeing patients at 7:00 and I have a full schedule of patients all day long from seven until 4:30. I do get a 12:00 to 12:30 break for lunch.
[0:21:24.2] JR: Seriously, that’s it?
[0:21:26.1] LR: Seriously that’s it.
[0:21:27.1] JR: You’re going nonstop.
[0:21:27.5] LR: Going nonstop. Patient after patient after patient. I mean, lunch usually ends up being not really a lunch and then it’s back to seeing patients, yes, until the day ends at 4:30. I try to leave at 4:30. It doesn’t always happen, I am 100% of the time out the door by five. Because I then have a long commute back to my family for the evening and then it’s usually the mad dash of dinner and chaos and baths and bed for the kids.
One thing that has been part of my daily routine for over a year now. Last year I did this thing called The Bible Recap and it is basically a podcast where Tara-Leigh Cobble she – you read this section in a chronological plan, you read the section for the day that you are supposed to read and then she does a five to 10 minute podcast recap of that section and it has been a true game changer for me as far as spiritual development goes and so I loved it so much in 2019 that I restarted it again in 2020.
So I listen, basically I just listen to the Bible on audio and then listen to her podcast and I have time for that in my commute on the way to work every morning.
[0:22:39.0] JR: I love that. I love this like we are talking about this here. I love this trend of micro-audio content. I give you a sneak peek of something I am thinking of. I am not ready to share with the full Call to Mastery audience but I am thinking about what is micro audio content look like for the future of Jordan Raynor and company and just everybody. I think it is super interesting.
So I have always been curious when doctors or nurse practitioners are going patient to patient, are they literally just coming out one door, going to the next, picking up a file for two seconds, reviewing it and popping right in?
[0:23:11.2] LR: Pretty much.
[0:23:11.8] JR: Wow like non-stop.
[0:23:13.5] LR: Pretty much.
[0:23:14.3] JR: That’s crazy. What is your night time look like? So after you get the kids to bed, how do you wind down, what time do you go to bed, how much sleep are you getting?
[0:23:21.4] LR: So after the kids are in bed, it is the mad dash to prep for the next day, which I have recently found out the night he’d outsource that. And then usually to be honest, it’s me and Paul relaxing on the couch watching TV for an hour or so and then bed by ten –
[0:23:42.3] JR: Hopefully The West Wing, yeah.
[0:23:44.2] LR: Sometimes The West Wing.
[0:23:45.3] JR: Amen, you’re welcome for that for you to change your life. So Lindsey is laughing because we – so Kara and I have tried something new as of this week that maybe the best hire I’ve ever made in my entire life. So we just hired a kid from the neighborhood, a 14 year old kid to come to our house every afternoon and basically do all the things that we used to do to prep for the next day, right? So make the kid’s lunches for tomorrow, set up our coffee for tomorrow, get the kid’s medicine ready. It is a game changer.
[0:24:19.3] LR: This is a genius idea and I am not going to go door to door and try to meet some neighborhood kids and figure out who I can outsource this to.
[0:24:26.7] JR: I’m not kidding it is one of the best ideas I ever had for eight bucks an hour, right? The 14 year old walks three doors down, every day, I mean it allows Kara and I to be fully present with our kids. That is really why we did it, right? I felt like every afternoon we’re scrambling to get everything ready for the next day. So if you take anything from this episode, not how amazing Lindsey is in her work, hire some teenager in your neighborhood to do all of this work you.
So Lindsey you know you’re a long time listener, first time caller to the Call to Mastery and you get the show, you know what this is all about. So I’d love to just start this faith in work conversation very broad and talk about at a high level how your faith fuels your ambition for your work. I know you touched on this earlier but go a little deeper.
[0:25:13.9] LR: Sure, so I really think it’s living out the gospel right? I mean it is just what you talked about all the time Jordan, which is loving your neighbor, serving them well, that’s really the heart, to me, in medicine and that is really what we are there to do. There are very few other things in life other than chronic illness and even — we deal a lot with mental health too, right? Like depression, anxiety, you know things like these, there are very few other ways that you can see the fall so evident.
As far as suffering of people, you see it very clearly in health or lack thereof in poor health, chronic health conditions, mental illness. So to me, it is really the hands and feet of the gospel and living out. You know I work for a Catholic healthcare ministry and part of the mission is it starts out rooted in the loving ministry of Jesus as healer, right? So to me that is really the heart behind what it is, it is being hands and feet serving others in our sickness, in our suffering in their depression in those times, it is serving them well.
[0:26:27.8] JR: I love that. I never thought about just the regular every patient, 3,000 patients a year that is a very visible reminder of the fall of sin. Also onto the other side, the hope that we as Christians have of a bodily resurrection. Jesus inaugurated this promise of a bodily resurrection on that first Easter morning. I don’t think the church talks about this nearly enough that all of us as all of us were in Christ are promise this bodily resurrection on the new heavens and the new earth. Do you think about that like as a medical professional and if so how does that affect your perspective on your work?
[0:27:12.6] LR: Right, so I will definitely be out of the job after Jesus has returned.
[0:27:16.4] JR: Thank God, right?
[0:27:17.8] LR: No doubt, yeah which is –
[0:27:19.2] JR: We’ll find new work for you, yeah.
[0:27:20.8] LR: I’m sure but I mean yeah, no more sickness, no more death, no more mourning, no more crying, no more pain, right? So I won’t have anything to do but He’ll find me something but yeah, I do think it’s glorious to think about because day in and day out I see the suffering of man. You know I see people at their worst, people when they are not feeling well, people when they are frustrated with their health or their weight or their physical bodies are deteriorating in some way.
It is a great reminder that we do have hope and we have hope for fully just as you said, fully resurrected bodies. We have hope in Christ that this is not all there is.
[0:28:01.3] JR: Yeah, I love just the whole medical profession is a giant sign post to the fact that we are not meant to be sick. We are not meant to hurt and just the work every day of trying to bring healing even when we don’t succeed, even when people die, even when people continue in chronic illness, we are still reminding people that this is not how the story is supposed to end, right? It is just a constant reminder that there is a hope that we are all longing for.
And as Christians, we believe that hope is real and tangible and physical, actually physical not just spiritual but also material. So we were talking about those before. I love bringing guests onto the show especially really close friends who are absolutely 100% world-class at what they do. But are not even a little bit world famous and also importantly have no real desire to be. I love that about a lot of the people in my life. It’s just a breath of fresh air to time when, it seems like everyone wants to start a podcast and everyone wants to write a book and obviously, I have no problem with those things.
I am a huge fan of creating content but you seem very content not doing those things and yet you consume a lot of content from people who are. So in the midst of all of that content I am really curious how you remind yourself of the eternal significance of your work each day but also like how you avoid the comparison trap and the temptation. To like feel tempted to envy other people’s gifts and callings because I think that is something a lot of people struggle with.
[0:29:39.6] LR: Yeah that’s a great question and I am not going to say I have never thought about things like that because I do listen to a lot of podcasts and there are times I thought, “Wow that would be a cool job” or you know, could I ever do something like that –
[0:29:49.0] JR: And then you come into Jordan Raynor’s closet and you’re like, “Just kidding, this really sucks,” yeah.
[0:29:53.8] LR: But look I think you have to maximize on the gifts God has given you and I think that there is just no way I can convince myself that what I am doing right now is not what He has completely and absolutely gifted and qualified and I am doing the work He has given me to do and I feel really confident in that, you know? So I don’t think there is any need to try to reinvent the wheel and it is great for creatives, you know people like you.
You are great at what you do and the people whose podcast I listen to all the time, they are great at what they do and I enjoy consuming their content but for me, I feel really comfortable in that reminder that I am serving others well, I am doing the work God’s called me to do to the people I’m sitting in, the exam rooms with all day every day, I am world-famous to them, you know? I am making a difference in their life, I’m giving them the medicine they need.
The treatment they need, the encouragement they need, whatever it is that’s my calling that is what I’m there to do. One of the beautiful things about medicine too is and this is really probably true across the board even if people who practice medicine who aren’t believers is we don’t really care who were treating. We treat them the same. You know one of my patients last week had just gotten out of prison and I see patients of all ages and economic status and shapes and sizes and races and ethnicities.
And none of that matters, you are in the room with the patient and you are treating that person and you’re making the difference in all the world to them. So that is how I remind myself of the eternal significance is really to that one person in that moment, it’s about them and it’s about their health and how can I make their life better in that moment.
[0:31:37.9] JR: It probably creates a lot of empathy too, right? I mean being in the room with people who are different from you, from racial background, to socioeconomic to professional whatever, right? Like they’re just people, they’re patients, right? It levels the playing field.
[0:31:55.7] LR: Absolutely, I mean I grew up feeling like everyone around me pretty much looked like me, was very similar to me. I even in college all these kinds of things you naturally gravitate toward people who were just similar to you and it really wasn’t until I was sitting in exam rooms every day with patients who were completely different than me that I really started to feel comfortable talking to people who were different than me and that’s been a game changer too and it really does again, make you feel like the hands and feet of Jesus.
You know you are doing this on a tangible level and there is no difference, like you said the playing field is equal. They can talk to me just the same, there is equal conversation back and forth and that is one of the things that I try to do is give the patients and say in their own care and I am not just the boss. You know things are equal and we talk it out.
[0:32:45.0] JR: I know we already said it a few minutes ago but I want to reiterate it because I do think this is such a rare quality. I have so much respect for people like you who are so clear on what they’re gifted at and I think that clarity is what enables people like you to not envy the gifts of others, right? Like once you realize, "Man, this is how God created me to be and I am doing the work that he created me to do," once you’re there and you are feeling God’s pleasure and doing the work well, there is just not a whole lot of room to be envious of other people’s callings or careers or vocation.
So I just like that a lot. So you’ve chosen to work full time, I’d love for you to talk a little bit about what you hope your kids, especially your girls in particular take away from watching mommy go to work every day.
[0:33:37.6] LR: Absolutely, this is something pretty important to me because I think it’s something that every mom struggles with on one level or another and this is something that my husband and I had decided prior to having children, we knew that I would continue to work and there are several reasons for that and every family has their own personal reasons for doing what they do no matter what decision is and I respect no matter what it is you decide to do.
If you decide to stay home and home school whatever the case may be. And I think that is important as believers too that we have mutual respect for others in the decisions that they made but for me personally I want my kids particularly my girls to know that you don’t have to be in a box, you know you don’t have to do any one certain thing that anyone tells you to do. You do what you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do. I just think that’s important.
I think that’s important not just in career choice but in other aspects of life too but the Holy Spirit leads you, God is sovereign, He is trustworthy and whatever he calls you to do He will equip you for whether that is being a full time nurse practitioner or being a mom or both, you can do both and you can do both well. And that’s what I want them to know is you don’t have to choose between those things or you can if you want to or if that’s what you feel led but you don’t have to choose and you can do both well and you can serve the Lord both by serving patients but also by serving them in motherhood.
And I want them to see me serving others and know that mommy wasn’t with us 24 hours a day but she was serving God by fulfilling her calling.
[0:35:22.3] JR: That is beautiful.
[0:35:23.5] LR: I once heard this quote and it stuck with me for a long time and it’s bad because I am not going to be able to quote who said it. So we may need to do some research on this. I am really sorry, I actually think it was Christy Nockels podcast where I heard it but I don’t know if she was quoting someone else. But anyway what she said was your children will learn more from your obedient absence than from your disobedient presence, and that stuck with me.
If I am disobeying God and I am there, that is not where I want to be, I’d rather not be there and be serving the Lord if that’s what He has for me to do and if what He has me to do is to be there, great but that quote stuck with me.
[0:36:10.4] JR: I love that and you know the key is being attuned to the spirit, knowing where he is leading whether or not he is leading you to a particular craft and working in a particular way and yeah just following that call, which I am so glad that you have done in your own life, what would be different about your work if you weren’t a follower of Christ? And I am not going to let you off the hook with the “I would care more deeply about people,” which is obviously true, right?
A bit more specific like what because I mean listen, you could argue any nurse practitioner, Christian or not could care deeply for people and what is really the delta between a nurse practitioner that loves Jesus and one that doesn’t.
[0:36:49.7] LR: Well I actually think it is a really hard question because I think that –
[0:36:51.9] JR: Yeah, I do too that’s why I asked it.
[0:36:53.4] LR: Yeah, I mean when I think that most people particularly in medicine are doing it because they care about people, you know? And I also think they are doing it because they have this deep desire to do things well whether or not they are a believer because it is important that things be done well in medicine. And so I do think that is a really hard question. I mean maybe even on the surface there might not be that much difference, you know? As far as how it looks from the outside –
[0:37:19.0] JR: And I think that’s okay, right? It is common grace that God has revealed to us that, hey, there are things broken in the world. I have imprinted in your heart believer or not that you are to fix these problems, you are to heal people. That is a good thing. These people Christian or not are carrying out the Lord’s will in the world, by doing your job well and doing it with excellence and healing people, right?
[0:37:40.8] LR: Absolutely, His plan is being fulfilled regardless of who it is doing it and we see you know that all throughout the Bible and all throughout history but I think in a heart level there is a difference and there should be a difference and I think really we again we operate out of a gospel mindset. You know we are serving others well, loving our neighbor and truthfully working as unto the Lord.
[0:38:04.9] JR: Yeah, no that is a really good answer. So you listen to the show enough you know the three questions I love to end with. So books, which books are you recommending or gifting the most these days? By the way, I can answer this because you have gifted me books or I have taken some from your house.
[0:38:20.5] LR: Oh have you?
[0:38:21.1] JR: Yeah, I think I saw somebody to give back to.
[0:38:23.8] LR: You do raid my bookshelf every time you’re at my house. There is one book in particular that I have gifted more than once in the past and it has nothing to do with faith and work, so sorry but it is The Insanity of God by Nik Ripken. Have you read this book?
[0:38:40.8] JR: I have not but I see it every time. I look at it every time I am at your house, yeah.
[0:38:43.8] LR: You see it every time you are at my house. So Nik Ripken is actually not his real name, he and his wife have served in Somalia and other places with the persecuted church and so they – he wrote the book under that name. But Paul and I had actually met this guy and his wife and their story is unreal. So I recommend that one a lot, The Insanity of God.
[0:39:11.2] JR: Yeah, what else? Anything else?
[0:39:12.7] LR: I know you are big Tim Keller fan, have you read The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness?
[0:39:17.1] JR: Oh my gosh, it was the first thing –
[0:39:18.6] LR: His little tiny – I think it was probably a sermon, right? And then turned into a book.
[0:39:22.4] JR: Yeah it was the first thing I read of Keller’s and as soon as I got done with it I read every book he ever wrote. I actually just reread it like three months ago. It’s so great.
[0:39:31.8] LR: It’s one of those because it’s such an easy read it is like a 20 minute read probably, I mean it is super small I reread it you know every so often. But that’s great too.
[0:39:40.0] JR: Terrific, what one person would you most like to hear talk about how their faith impacts their work maybe on this podcast?
[0:39:46.1] LR: I would love to hear Chip and Joanna Gaines on your podcast Jordan I mean –
[0:39:50.5] JR: I think it is the first time we have heard your answer here.
[0:39:52.1] LR: Yeah, well I mean at the risk of sounding cliché as a southern woman who watches – a southern white girl, yeah who watches Fixer Uppers but yes, I think Chip and Joanna would be phenomenal.
[0:40:05.5] JR: That is a good answer, we’ll try to get Chip and Joanna on and last question, single piece of advice you would leave our audience with who listen are across a bunch of different vocations, I bet there are a lot of nurses out there that there are a lot of people in medicine but we have a lot of entrepreneurs and aspiring authors but the common theme as you know, these are people who love Jesus and want to do really extraordinary work primarily for his Glory and the good of their neighbor, what one piece of advice would you leave them with?
[0:40:34.5] LR: I would say keep perspective, always keep the gospel and the reason, your motives in the forefront and also you know treat the patient like it was your mother or your brother or your father or your sister. You want to take good care of people, you know that is really the heart behind what we do in the medical field but also as believers.
[0:40:58.5] JR: It is the same thing for customers, right? Do you treat your customers like it’s your mother? That is a really good advice. Lindsey, I just want to commend you and every single person in our audience that has a job like yours for going to work every day, doing work that’s on the surface can seem ordinary and mundane but it’s extraordinarily significant, eternally and just being really effective reflections of Christ in a broken world in need of redemption.
Thank you for loving your patients as yourself, thank you for serving your employer well and like I said earlier, just serving as signposts I think to this bodily resurrection that we are promised in Christ and thank you for your friendship for 15 years, something like that and thanks for being willing to sit down with me today.
[0:41:45.0] LR: Jordan, it has been an absolute honor and you and Kara are absolutely precious to me. So I appreciate your friendship as well, thanks for having me on.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:41:56.0] JR: Always a joy to have friends like Lindsey on the show. Hey, if you’re enjoying the Call to Mastery make sure you subscribe to never miss an episode in the future. If you’re already subscribed you know what I am going to ask you do, take 30 seconds go and review the podcast right now so more people can find these incredible conversations of people like Lindsey just doing good work every day in seemingly ordinary jobs but doing it so well that they are loving their neighbor as their self through the ministry of excellence and bringing glory to our great God in the process.
Hey, thank you guys so much for listening to The Call to Mastery, I’ll see you next week.
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