“God cares about math” and your work too
How Linda was freed from analysis paralysis about discerning “God’s will” for her work, the biblical evidence that God cares about your work and not just what your work does “for the kingdom,” and how a proper theology of the New Earth has made Linda feel more alive and much more likely to share her faith
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[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey friend, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as genetic counselors, potters, and forensic pathologists? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to Dr. Linda Braddy, one of the most exceptional leaders I know.
Currently, she serves as the CEO of the American Red Cross North Texas where she and her team are responsible for serving more than 10 million people across a hundred and twenty-one counties. Linda and I recently sat down to talk about how Linda was freed from analysis paralysis about discerning God’s will for her work. We talked about the biblical evidence that God cares about your work and not just what your work does for the kingdom.
We also talked about how we proper theology of heaven and the new earth has led Linda to become more alive Monday through Friday and much more likely to share her faith. This is one of my favorite episodes we recorded in a long time. Please enjoy this terrific conversation with my friend, Dr. Linda Braddy.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:30.6] JR: Dr. Linda Braddy, it feels so weird calling you doctor because I feel you’re a friend but Dr. Linda Braddy, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:38.2] LB: Thank you Jordan, I am just completely honored to be on your podcast, and so excited.
[0:01:44.8] JR: I know, long-time listener, first-time caller, this is a big deal. Hey, so, Linda, you’ve had a remarkable career. You currently serve as the CEO of American Red Cross North Texas. Prior to that, you were the president of Brook Haven College, before that, you were at the Math Association of American D.C. But I got to ask, what’s your very first job? Like, the first time you got a paycheck that wasn’t from a relative?
[0:02:07.9] LB: Well, you know, I did babysitting, when I was like, 12 years old.
[0:02:11.4] JR: That counts.
[0:02:12.9] LB: Does it count? Okay.
[0:02:13.6] JR: Sure.
[0:02:13.9] LB: Okay. So, babysitting. I was a really good babysitter, I cleaned their house, you know? I pretended like it was my apartment and –
[0:02:21.3] JR: Babysitters don’t do this anymore, for the record.
[0:02:22.9] LB: Yeah, no. I was a great babysitter. I was definitely earning my keep.
[0:02:26.3] JR: What was the first job you were going to say though? You were going to say something.
[0:02:29.2] LB: Well, where I really got a paycheck, I think I was 14 years old and I worked at a dog grooming shop. My cousin gave me a job and I got the glorious job of bathing the dogs and combing all the mattes out of their hair.
[0:02:44.7] JR: That sounds terrible.
[0:02:46.5] LB: It was terrible.
[0:02:51.2] JR: All right, you love your job today a little bit more, tell us a little bit about the work you do now, for those who don’t know, which I think will be very few people. What is the American Red Cross do, Linda?
[0:02:59.8] LB: Well, our mission is to alleviate human suffering in the face of emergencies. So, emergencies can be natural disasters, hurricanes, they can be, you know, tornadoes, things like that but they can also be home fires, residential fires, apartment fires where people are displaced from their homes. It can be wildfires where people have to evacuate, that kind of thing.
But we also serve the military, we help with communications, when someone needs to get home, there’s a family crisis or whatever. We also do blood services. We provide 40% of the blood supply for the country. A lot of people don’t know that part, that we supply almost half of the blood supply in the country. Yeah, we have international services, we have helped with humanitarian crisis, like Ukraine, earthquake in Turkey.
Also, obviously, the Middle East war that’s going on right now, helping with hostages and humanitarian services over there, and then we have the training services, people are probably familiar with, right? Lifeguarding, CPR, first aid, babysitting, classes for babysitters, that kind of thing.
[0:04:07.2] JR: Massive organization and you’re leading the organization in North Texas, correct?
[0:04:11.2] LB: That’s correct.
[0:04:12.5] JR: I love it. You’ve been a member of the Mere Christians community since its inception and one of the highlights for me in that community has honestly been watching you find this biblically based freedom to choose the job you wanted because you’re pretty new to this job at the American Red Cross, right? How long have you been in it?
[0:04:32.5] LB: Yeah, not quite a year, it won’t be a year ‘till the end of February.
[0:04:36.2] JR: And I know for a long time, you’ve shared this with me before, you felt a little bit paralyzed when seeking to discern God’s will for your work, for your vocation. Can you talk about the journey you’ve been on here?
[0:04:49.0] LB: The journey has been long. Going back just a little bit of background, so I was raised in the church, literally from birth. My dad loved going to church more than probably any person I’ve ever met, he loved it. This was back in the day when we went every time the doors were open Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, we saw revivals, we were always there.
So, I was blessed with this really strong biblical foundation early in life. Lots of scripture memorizations, stuff like that, and as a young adult, I was really blessed with clarity regarding the gifts, or talents, that God had given me in leadership and teaching.
[0:05:27.6] JR: That is a gift.
[0:05:28.3] LB: So yeah, it really was. So, when I met you a couple of years ago, it was during COVID, I really wasn’t struggling with discerning my talents and strengths. What I was struggling with was making a choice to leave my job as a college president. So, that had been the dream, for most of my career. My entire career had been in higher ed, I was a math professor, I was a department chair, I was a dean.
I was an academic vice president and a college president. I did spend the four years in DC as a nonprofit executive but you mentioned it was a math association. So, it was you know, kind of higher ed adjacent, it felt like I was still in higher ed, I still worked with colleges and universities people, you know it, colleges and universities. So, when I met you, my struggle was really strongly with the idea of you know, “Missing God’s will and choosing the wrong job.”
[0:06:21.8] JR: Yeah, very common question for believers.
[0:06:24.3] LB: Yes. Oh, from the beginning, right? Like, I’d always believe there’s a right person to marry, there’s a right job, and whatever decision you have to make, there’s a right one that aligns with God’s will and then there are all the wrong ones that don’t align with God’s will. So, I had to figure out, which one was right, so I was still in that frame of mind. So, at some point during these two years-long struggles that I was having about this career choice. You said to me, I don’t think I care for [inaudible 0:06:56.2].
[0:06:57.6] JR: Hopefully I didn’t say it that brashly.
[0:07:01.6] LB: Well, no, no. Probably not and of course, the caveat was long, it’s not something immoral or illegal and certainly, there are some jobs where your skills are better aligned, and you make more impact but like I did a double take. I was like, “What? I can’t make a wrong choice? That can’t be right?” That doesn’t sound right, you know?
I was learning so much from your teachings on work and honestly, God used your words of, “I don’t think God cares.” To really free me from the fear of making the wrong choice and so, it was so powerful for me and I just have to say, I know some people like and some people don’t like having themselves quoted back to them but you just published a devotional called Do Whatever for the Mere Christians community and it really sums it up.
The scriptures, I Samuel 10 where Samuel commissioned Saul as King, and then he said, “Do whatever your hand finds to do for God is with you” And you wrote, “Some level of discernment is wise but at some point, you just have to make a choice. So long as your decisions are not disobeying God’s word, you can exercise your God-given freedom to choose, knowing that God is with you and will work every decision for good” from Romans 8:28.
[0:08:16.3] JR: That’s not bad. Hey, I don’t who wrote that, that’s pretty good.
[0:08:20.0] LB: That was pretty good. Yeah, I was definitely overanalyzing and all of that, so yeah.
[0:08:24.4] JR: Oh, and I’ve been there and I’ve been reading more and more about this, actually, over the last year or so. One of the best books I read last year was recommended to me on this podcast by Dave Evans, the co-founder of EA Sports. It’s this book called, The Will of God as a Way of Life, and the basic premise of the book. I think it would be summed up in this quote I puled up. It says, “The bible says very little about the will of God as a future pathway, instead, the bible warns us about anxiety concern in the future, assures us that God is in control and commands us to do the will of God, we already know in the present.”
In other words, seeking first the kingdom of God and then, the author, his name is Jerry Sittser. He goes on to argue that quote, “Our preoccupation with what lies ahead” right? So, choosing the right job, choosing what is best, whatever. “Betrays a desire to control a future that’s simply cannot be controlled.” And when I read that, I was like, “Dang, that’s been me before.” And I’m curious if that’s been you. Is that underneath your past desire to know God’s will for your vocation, do you think that was partially a desire for control, Linda?
[0:09:42.8] LB: Yeah, I definitely have control-freak tendency.
[0:09:46.1] JR: It’s not just me? Okay, cool, yeah.
[0:09:47.9] LB: No, I can see it in other areas of my life, especially, you know, as your children get older and maybe, I don't know, maybe they get harder to control, it manifests more and more and so when you combine that with – I also have this obsession with, “I think I’m pretty good at admitting when I’m wrong.” Man, I do not want to make a mistake. I just – so, combine the control freak tendencies with this obsession with not wanting to make a mistake. Man, talk about analysis paralysis.
[0:10:17.6] JR: And I think a holy desire to please God in everything that we do, right?
[0:10:21.4] LB: Yeah, and you want to trust God. Trust God, yes, of course, God controls the future, right? But don’t make a mistake. So, trust God but don’t make a mistake.
[0:10:30.4] JR: But recognizing that any good God-honoring work that contributes to human flourishing is on the table, is freeing, right?
[0:10:39.0] LB: Yes, it is. Oh, absolutely.
[0:10:40.0] JR: And that help you choose this role at the American Red Cross? Hey, you read an advanced copy of my new book, The Sacredness of Secular Work, which is dropping in six days from when this episode will air and you know this book is all about helping believers see that God doesn’t just view our work as an instrumental tool to carry out spiritual task, like evangelism and prayer. He cares about the work itself, right?
And you sent me this email that I’ve treasured, it’s in a file of emails that I go back and reread from time to time about just being overwhelmed by that truth before giving a speech and I’d love for you to share that story with our listeners if you could.
[0:11:19.2] LB: Well, I was giving the keynote address at a National Math Conference. So, we’ve already talked about my work in DC. The focus of that work was improving undergraduate math education, nationally. So, that’s how I ended up being invited to give this math talk even though I was now working at the Red Cross.
I gave them the opportunity to back out and they were like, “No-no, we still want you to do it.” So, the backdrop for this scene this morning of this big talk in my hotel room, the backdrop is that, as I’ve reflected back over like, the last decade or so of my career, I’ve really come to realize that my real passion, my underlying motivation for my vocational choices has always been justice, and so I don't know if you’re familiar with Amy Sherman’s quote.
[0:12:05.4] JR: I love Amy Sherman.
[0:12:07.3] LB: That references Micah 6:8.
[0:12:08.6] JR: Year, reinforce.
[0:12:09.2] LB: Yeah, I love her too. Yeah, so doing justice is a critical part of every Christian’s vocational call. It is, according to Micah 6:8, something that the Lord requires of us. We need to see the centrality of justice in the Christian life to understand God’s passion for it. Then, to honor and obey him, we need to become doers of justice. So, I love that verse, one of my favorite verses, He is showing you all mortal what is good, what does the Lord require of you to act justly, to love mercy and walk humbly with your God, Micah 6:8.
So, my passion for education has been fueled by the fact that education is the great equalizer, right? It can lift people out of poverty, it can help them elevate their socioeconomic status, make life better for them and their families, and it’s really an injustice that our education systems are so inequitable in the way students are served. So, in that, in the midst of that, math is one of the biggest barriers to students completing degrees and certifications, that will allow them to improve their economic situation.
So certainly, there are really great math teachers and professors like your friend, Christy Adams, right? There’s some great math programs at colleges and universities across the country but you know, generally speaking, as a math community collectively, we’re not serving our students as well as we should be. Math is still a barrier to completing the college degree for so many students and a college degree is still the currency of economic advancement, even though that’s changing but we’re not there yet.
So, I’m talking about systemic issues, I’m not talking about individuals, right? Our education system is not just and the problem is not the students. So, sometimes, professors will adopt this blame-the-victim mentality, “Oh, you know, the students, they just work harder, if they just were more motivated,” So, the problem is the education system itself and, in my opinion, math is the worst culprit in that unjust system.
So, when I started working in DC, I started recognizing these speaking engagements as opportunities to push math professors out of their comfort zones, challenge them to do better for students to do what they can do within the system in which they work, right? So, back to this big math talk I’m giving. Well, the title of this talk, which you know, you give the same talk over and over again, you tweak it and you know, modify it and all that but it’s the same talk. So, the title is, “Are we guilty of educational malpractice?”
Well, that’s kind of in your face, it’s on purpose. I’m using the title to kind of issue a warning, I’m going to try to make you uncomfortable with the status quo and the ineffective ways that we teach math to students and all the, you know, injustices in the system and I’m going to push you to change what you can in order to improve things. So, as a matter of justice. So, my typical method preparing for talks is to pray, it’s actually what you want me to say is I’m preparing and then also, help me not make a fool of myself.
So, I’m embarrassed to admit that I’ve sometimes placed more emphasis on the part not – help me not make a fool of myself. That morning is help me not trip going up the stairs, right? To get on the stage, and, and, you know, it’s in the side, “Help me not forget what I want to say to make an impact on people.” This particular morning, I had this realization of how different my perspective is now.
So, this was just a couple of months ago. How much my perspective has changed since I started learning all these new ideas on work, on eternity on heaven, on you know, the sacredness of secular work and I recognize this profound difference in my prayer. I had this realization that God cares about what I’m talking about. It’s not just He cares about me and He loves me enough to not let me humiliate myself, He actually cares about our math education enterprise and He wants us to get our crap together so we can serve students and society better than we are now.
Like, He cares about that and so this is really about going into the broken places, right? Working to restore the world and giving people a taste of what heaven is like. So, again, you and Amy Sherman is the little pink Baskin Robbins spoons.
[0:16:49.2] JR: Yes, I love this analogy.
[0:16:52.1] LB: I love this, of course, I love ice cream and I used to work in an ice cream shop when I was a teenager.
[0:16:56.5] JR: So, for those who haven’t listened to Dr. Amy Sherman on this podcast, share with them this Baskin Robbins analogy.
[0:17:05.2] LB: Okay. So, when you go into Baskin Robbins, they have those little pink spoons that they will give you –
[0:17:08.7] JR: By the way, PS, is Baskin Robbins still a thing? Can we get like a fact-check on this? I don't know.
[0:17:13.7] LB: It is in fact.
[0:17:14.0] JR: Okay, all right, great.
[0:17:15.5] LB: Or, it is indeed, I mean.
[0:17:16.4] JR: I haven’t seen a Baskin Robbins in 20 years. Okay.
[0:17:19.8] LB: Yeah. So, well, and Braum’s is a big thing here but you know, Braum’s doesn’t have the spoons.
[0:17:23.1] JR: Yeah, there you go. Baskin Robbins has got those pink spoons.
[0:17:25.6] LB: Yeah, they got the pink spoons. So, you can just say, “Oh, I want to try that one, I want to try that one, I want to try that one.” And then you decide, you know, what you want the whole order to be but it’s giving people a taste of what’s behind the glass, right? Like, I can see it through the glass but I can’t taste it yet, and so this gives me a little taste of that.
So, I am a little pink Baskin Robbins spoon, so I can give people a taste of what the kingdom of God is like, now, right? What it will be like on the new heavens, the new earth, and all of that. So, I got so overwhelmed with emotion in a different way than I ever had before. I mean, I just boohooed, it was a good thing I hadn’t started putting my makeup on yet, I would have had to redo it.
This realization that this work is important to God and therefore, He is not going to let the devil sabotage things. I’m telling you, when I left my hotel room and for the whole two hours, leading up to the talk, I was so much less nervous than I had ever been before a talk. I mean, I’m always a little nervous until I say the first couple of things and then you know, then I’m all right and God has really given me confidence in you know, once I get going, but I was more excited than I’d ever been about giving a talk.
I felt like I was oozing confidence at this point because it was confidence in God, not confidence in myself, and honestly, it was the best talk I’ve ever given, literally.
[0:18:54.7] JR: I love it, I love it so much. Yeah, it’s this realization that yes, our work does have instrumental value in that we can leverage it towards spiritual things such as evangelism and prayer but God cares about the material work itself and so that work has intrinsic value to him and I know there’s a ton of biblical truths that you’ve unpacked here that have convinced you that God cares about the seemingly secular work of math.
What’s just one of them? What’s one piece of evidence you see in the scriptures, like, “No-no-no-no, God cares about math.” Give us one biblical truth that’s helped you make that case in your own mind.
[0:19:33.1] LB: Well, I think all of the truths about justice, right? I mean, there are so many scriptures about justice in the bible and I already talked about how math education, you know, it’s the great equalizer and so, I have a 10 Tim Keller quote I can share with you.
[0:19:50.0] JR: I’m always down for Tim quote. I miss Tim’s voice, so I can hear it via Linda Braddy, I’ll take it.
[0:19:57.0] LB: That’s right, that’s right. Here we go. There’s a scripture, Psalm 89:14, “Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne. Steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.” Tim Keller says, “Biblical justice is not, first of all, a set of bullet points or a set of rules and guidelines. It is rooted in the very character of God and it is the outworking of that character, which is never less than just.”
So, when you recognize injustices in society, God cares about those. I don’t think anybody denies that math is a problem, right? Students getting through math classes and anything that prevents, you know, students from being able to complete their degrees and better themselves, you know, economically, it’s not just, it’s not equitable.
The bible talks about taking care of the physical needs of the poor and the widows and orphans and the needy. Well, what better way to take care of them than provide them with the excellent education that prepares them for a job that’s in high demand that pays well, right? Not a handout, there’s nothing wrong with that — but like, help them do this for themselves, and support them.
[0:21:08.4] JR: Yeah.
[0:21:08.4] LB: And so –
[0:21:08.9] JR: That’s exactly right and I love that you’re pointing back to this broader definition of the kingdom of God. I would argue, Jesus’ definition of the kingdom of God as you make this case because if we see the kingdom of God purely as saved souls, floating in the clouds for eternity, then justice does not matter and math does not matter, or at least, it doesn’t matter intrinsically.
It matters, sure if we can leverage it to the instrumental end of saving souls but it has no value in its own right, right? But if the kingdom of God is what Jesus said to this, right? It is yes, the souls and P.S. bodies of the redeemed, plus, the intangible marks of the kingdom of justice and beauty and abundance and all these things that Isaiah and Revelation, the prophetic literature say are going to mark our eternal exitance with God.
Then all of a sudden, those things take on great meaning and have intrinsic value in and of themselves. All right, let’s apply this to your current work, all right? God doesn’t just care that your work at the Red Cross can lead to the salvation of souls. He cares about providing shelter and food, and clothing, and the emotional support you guys provide that as intrinsic value to God. They’re not just a means to ministry, they are acts of ministry. How does knowing that change how you do your work Monday through Friday, Linda?
[0:22:37.6] LB: Yeah. So, maybe I should be embarrassed to admit this but one of the things that has happened, one of the things that’s done for me has alleviated the guilt that I have always felt because I am not sharing the Roman road, I’m praying with people to accept Jesus as their savior every day.
[0:22:54.2] JR: Let’s go.
[0:22:54.7] LB: That has been a, you know, something that I have felt like I was – where I was failing and I’ve always believed teaching was my calling and that God called me into the vocation, right? Of teaching. I never believed that I had somehow missed my calling as a missionary or the official church-based ministries, that kind of thing.
But I did feel like I was a slacker because I wasn’t witnessing “The right way” by sharing the Roman’s road to salvation but we don’t function well when we’re functioning out of guilt I feel like in relationships of any sort, and so even more, even bigger than this idea of alleviating the guilt, now, I understand that I have opportunities to be a little pink spoon and give people a glimpse into eternity and what it’s going to be like when we’re living on the new earth in God’s eternal just, righteous kingdom, right?
Knowing I’m called to go into broken places and do whatever I can to help repair some of the brokenness that exists in the world and that that has stand-alone value, even if I never pray with someone to receive Christ. Mr. Rogers called it, “Being a repairer of creation.”
[0:24:07.5] JR: Yes, Tikkun Olam, repairers of creation, yeah.
[0:24:09.9] LB: And so, sort of that’s fundamental to how I see our clients and how I feel about them as well. So –
[0:24:18.9] JR: They’re not just salvation projects.
[0:24:20.1] LB: That’s right. The Bible refers to the poor and needy and they’re certainly among our clients, right? That we serve. So, I mentioned earlier about this blame-the-victim mentality with students in higher ed but also, people in poverty. There can be this tendency to say, “Well you know, they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they should work harder.”
I don’t think there’s a broad enough understanding among upper and middle-class Americans of what the barriers really are for people who are poor and needy, right? Or, they take on this white savior mentality or you know, they’re a salvation project or whatever but my commitment to Christ gives me love, not just sympathy for our clients because they are God’s creation just like me regardless of their beliefs or their social status.
God loves them just as much as he loves me, regardless of their beliefs and their social status. They deserve the same love and honor, respect from me as all of God’s creation does, regardless of their beliefs and social status, right? So, loving people is different from feeling sorry for them and it changes how we treat them and so understanding the value of the work I’m doing not just for the instrumental and assuring the gospel but it has made huge difference in how I go about my work.
[0:25:38.5] JR: It’s so-so-so good and also remembering that hey, but for God’s grace, we would be materially poor. We would be spiritually poor. I love that distinction between sympathy and actual love. It reminds me of I Corinthians 13. Yeah, first, I’m pulling it up right now. I Corinthians 13:4, where is the famous love chapter, right? That we hear at every wedding, which by the way, it’s interesting, marriage isn’t the context of this passage.
It’s actually stewarding spiritual and vocational gifts. If you flip your page back. I Corinthians 12, that’s what Paul’s talking about. He says, “Hey” And then he says in verse 12:31, “Hey, I’ll show you the most excellent way.” In other words, I’m going to show you the most excellent way to steward your vocational gifts. Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast. Love doesn’t just feel sympathetic, love doesn’t just feel loving, it does things.
But I’m curious for you, Linda, how do you think you’re showing love on the job with your team, with your clients, in distinctly Christ-like ways? Now, nonbelievers are going to show Christ-like love even though they’re not believers but what do you think is distinct in the way that you’re loving your team and your clients?
[0:26:53.8] LB: Well, certainly, what I mentioned about with clients, just – it changes how you interact with them. You value them as God’s creation, you know? And see them on the even plane with you or above you, you know, regardless of their status. So, that’s definitely one way. I think with my team, I really have – I really have three verses that they don’t specifically talk about love but that’s what drives all of that, right? Seeing my team members also, the same way.
Every human being is God’s creation who deserves all of those things, just because God loves them and created them. So, one of my favorite verses is for leadership, thinking about how I lead my team. John 1:14. The one about the word became flesh and made His dwelling among us, we have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Okay, grace is kindness or loving favor, right? So, kindness and truth, that’s what a leader owes their employees. So, for some leaders, the grace part comes easily and the truth part is hard. For me, it’s got to be in the opposite. I’ve struggled more with the grace part. The truth part comes easier, right? But the truth part can wound people’s souls, right? So, it has to be balanced with grace and mercy and empathy and kindness.
And so that’s where God has really helped me grow over the years is in the kindness and empathy part and I want to treat people the way Jesus did. Man, He told people the truth but man, did He show grace and mercy. And so, I’m convinced in a specific sort of incarnation of that, I’m convinced that the kindest thing that I can do for my team is make my expectations clear.
Not vague, and hold them accountable day by day. It’s not fair to them, for me to be really vague and then my frustration builds up and then, I go off on it where I write them up or worse but that’s hard and it requires courage. So, there’s lots of verses in the bible about courage as well, right? My second verse that really informs my leadership is Philippians 2:3,4, “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interest but each of you to the interest of others.
So, as the leader, I should be looking out for the interest of my team and that includes mentoring them and developing them, and developing highly functional teams. There’s a lot of reading out there, you can do a lot of books and stuff on these highly functioning teams. One aspect of that is that it requires this productive conflict which can be super uncomfortable and I think sometimes, it can be really hard for Christians because we’re supposed to be “Nice” right?
And we think of disagreement as not being nice but I think we need to distinguish between kind and not nice. So, nice can be, for me, it can be sort of inauthentic and fake, right? Kind is like, that’s what God calls us too, right? Grace, mercy, kindness. So, this culture of nice, as opposed to kind, well, that can be detrimental to effective teamwork because these crucial conversations, the way they’re referred to in the literature, they’re the ones where the stakes are high, people have different opinions.
Emotions can run high, and if those are done well, then they can be a powerful tool that really promotes growth and high productivity in teams but too often, we avoid them, right? Because we don’t want to hurt people’s feelings or whatever, or we do them [and] they’re not done in love and that can be damaging as well. God offers us the same power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead.
He can give us the courage and the confidence to have these difficult conversations but do it with humility in a way that’s loving and you already talked about the love chapter, right? There’s one other verse I want to mention.
[0:31:07.2] JR: These are amazing for any leader of any sized organization, yeah.
[0:31:11.4] LB: Okay. Well, the third one is James 1:19. This one’s the hardest for – well, maybe not the hardest for me, this is hard for me. “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry.” So, slow to become angry or defensive because defensiveness can really kill the kind of frank conversations we need to be having.
So, first of all, I talk way too much and I don’t listen nearly enough and I have to remember, I don’t know everything, I need to listen to the subject matter experts on my team. I need to listen to people’s concerns and frustrations and disagreements with me without getting defensive. So, they can help me identify my blind spots if I’ll just listen and so I think in general, leaders talk too much and don’t listen enough. So, all of those things really do inform how I do my work, how I lead the team.
[0:32:07.0] JR: This is incredible and I agree, I think they’re all wrapped up in love. This is a more loving way to live and we’re living out those biblical commands. All right, so we’ve been talking about how the gospel shapes the work you do today, right now, in the present. Let’s talk about the work you’re going to do for eternity. I know, one of your new favorite topics because as you know, I spend, I think that’s the longest chapters of the sacredness of secular work.
Replacing these just terribly pervasive half-truths about heaven with the whole truths we find in scripture and I don’t think I met a reader yet who had been more excited about those whole truths than you because it sounds like you spend the vast majority of your life like I did for a long time, quietly, and maybe ashamedly dreading the thought of heaven if we can say that out loud. Am I reading that right?
[0:33:01.5] LB: Oh, my goodness, yes, I definitely ashamedly – listen, you were the first person I ever heard say that and I was like, “Oh, I thought I was the only person that felt that way” you know? And I obviously never admitted that to anybody before, that would have been heresy, you know? So, the idea of, you know, playing the harp and floating around on clouds, I’m a mathematician, never really, really rang true to me as a realistic version of what heaven might be like but I did develop this idea that heaven would be like a never-ending worship service.
[0:33:38.0] JR: Endless Hillsong concert.
[0:33:39.3] LB: Yes, yes. We’re going to worship God forever and all that. Now, don’t get me wrong, I used to be a worship leader at church. I love to sing, I love the worship services at church but come on man, even I thought, that’s going to get boring at some point, you know what I’m saying? And so, now, currently, as a recovering workaholic, imagine how excited I got when these sort of these whole truths sunk in for me that we are going to get to work in eternity.
Like, I was so pumped. It’s not just any old work like we do know as far as you know, the environment but work the way God intended it in Genesis before the fall.
[0:34:18.7] JR: Perfect worship.
[0:34:19.8] LB: That’s right, exactly. Work without the curse, work without thorns or thistles. It’s pure joy because it’s pure worship, right? To God and so it was just about more than I could stand. I mean, it absolutely revolutionized how I feel about my work today. I have always loved to work and I’ve really always loved the jobs I had. I didn’t love every aspect of every job. I mentioned earlier, I was blessed with understanding sort of how God had gifted me.
And so, I always felt like I was doing what God had called me to do but this was a whole other level and a case and point, I think that kind of demonstrates this is, so when I was struggling with this thinking about leaving higher ed, I reached a point a couple of years ago where I was like, “Wow, have I wasted my whole career? Like, I’m at an age where I should be settled into my last job, you know what I mean?”
Like, this should be my retirement job, I’m really making an impact and here I am, considering changing jobs like, “How did I get here? What am I doing? Like, God” You know, I just – I did feel lost for a while. and I had always loved learning and growing professionally. Man, I was the professional development queen. I did it for other people, I engaged in it myself. I just stopped doing it because I felt like I’m old enough, I should be winding down in my career.
So, what’s the use of like, learning new stuff, you know? And so, when I caught this vision of eternity that I’ve – really God used you to teach this to me, and the full truth about heaven, it was like, it supercharged me. I mean – and what I conclude to this, I need to keep learning and developing my leadership skills so God will give me a really cool job on the new earth.
So, I’m so excited to think about eternity now in this context and I don’t feel like, “Well, you know, I – maybe I’ve only got another 10 or 15 years to work.” It’s like, “No-no, I have all of eternity. So, anything I learn now, it’s going to benefit me forever.” And I’ll be able to, I mean, benefit me in the sense of, I’ll be able to you know, worship God, more, better, He’ll give me more responsibility and that kind of thing.
[0:36:43.5] JR: Yeah, and scripture is clear that we will worship by singing for eternity. Isiah makes this clear, Revelation makes this clear but it’s also clear, crystal clear that we worship by singing and by long enjoying the work of our hands in Isaiah 65. I want to speak to the shame that you and I have both felt. I think about even getting excited about this because I’ve talked to a lot of people who is like, “Well, Jordan, we shouldn’t need the promise of the new earth to be excited by heaven.”
“We shouldn’t need the promise of work without the curse. Christ should be enough, he is the point of eternity.” And listen, that is a hundred percent true. I quote John Piper in the book. He says, “People who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there will not be there." I think that’s true but that truth should not negate the longing and excitement we feel for the eternal things of earth, including our work that Christ has redeemed because Ecclesiastes says that God has set eternity in our hearts.
And all through that scripture, God gives us this super earthly language to stoke our hopes for eternity with Him, language about a banquet with choice meats and wine, see Isaiah. Language about work without the curse, language about this great city called the New Jerusalem that stand seven million feet tall, see Revelation 21, and I would argue to not be excited about those things, to not be motivated by those things. Is it a way to accuse God of making a mistake of planting those seeds of hopes in our hearts in the first place, amen?
[0:38:20.3] LB: Yeah, amen. Absolutely. I was thinking as you were saying that, you know, maybe you can make a case that I shouldn’t need, “Fill in the blank” But in this case, having it has really changed my life in the here and now.
[0:38:35.8] JR: It isn’t a need but it does stoke your faithfulness, right?
[0:38:39.0] LB: That’s right. That’s right, and my excitement and my desire to talk about, I don't know, spiritual things, talk about the – share the gospel with people, you know, day to day in a way that I wasn’t before and you know, something else and I don't know if this is kind of off-topic or not.
[0:38:59.0] JR: It doesn’t matter.
[0:39:00.1] LB: But we did a bible study. So, you know, our Mere Christians community, I have a couple of friends that came out of that first group and we still meet every two weeks and we did this bible study on shouldn’t. Like, “I shouldn’t do this and I shouldn’t do that or I should do this or I should do that.” And I think, that kind of struck me that the idea that I shouldn’t need something that God has provided for me is like, is that bordering on sort of self-sufficiency?
Is it a God-sufficiency or, like, I need to be careful, I’m not making myself a God, instead of keeping God as God? Like, if He provided that for me, He knows what I need or maybe, He just wants me to have it because it makes me happy.
[0:39:47.3] JR: Because He’s a good father.
[0:39:48.1] LB: Yeah, and so why should I feel bad or feel like, “Oh, I shouldn’t need that” when God provided it? Like, He put all of that in the bible for us to discover. So, I’m not going to feel bad about it anymore.
[0:40:00.6] JR: That’s amazing. I love it. Hey, so you read The Sacredness of Secular Work maybe three months ago or something like that? Have these whole truths about heaven made you more excited to share your faith with others?
[0:40:11.3] LB: Yeah, absolutely, and in a more authentic way.
[0:40:14.7] JR: Yeah, tell me what you mean by that.
[0:40:16.4] LB: That’s the big thing. For me, so, you know, I think I’ve shared this with you before that I was sort of trained when I was a young adult that you know, you should just walk up to people and say, “If you died tonight, do you know where you’d spend eternity?”
[0:40:32.7] JR: Made a lot of converts, not a lot of disciples of Jesus Christ.
[0:40:35.5] LB: Yeah, and that’s a difference, right? There’s a difference between believers and disciples and so I’m definitely better – well, I say, in my opinion, I am better at the disciplining part, right? Than the walking up to people and doing this cold but for me, that didn’t feel authentic and I know, you know, I’ve heard all the things, “Well, it doesn’t matter how you feel. Like, God says you should do this.”
I’ve struggled with all of that my whole life but I wasn’t completely comfortable with that approach because it didn’t feel authentic because I’m more relational than that. Also, I didn’t like the feeling of somehow, if somebody said, “Well, no, I don’t know.” Or “No, I don’t think I would go to heaven.” Somehow, I’m implicitly condemning their current lifestyle. Like, that idea that people have used the bible to kind of beat people over the head with this, instead of loving them.
Really, that condemnation approach or whatever, and that also doesn’t ring true for me. Now, I already said I’m good at speaking the truth to a fault, right? And being too blunt and that kind of thing but in this instance, that didn’t feel like an authentic way for me to share. So now – plus, if you heap on top of that, I wasn’t excited about heaven. “Well, what am I going to really tell Him about?”
[0:41:50.7] JR: Yes.
[0:41:51.6] LB: I did have my – you know, my personal story, “Here’s what God has done for me, here’s how he’s gotten me through some tough times.” I was good at that part and I could also share when I’m mentoring people, a lot of people – well, not a lot of people. People have asked me to mentor them in leadership and that kind of stuff and so, quite a few of them are already Christians but I do see that as an opportunity to disciple them, you know, in God’s ways in leadership.
I could freely share with them kind of the things that God was dealing with me about or you know, these scriptures that I talked about earlier, and so as far as the leading people to Christ, salvation and that kind of thing, the idea that some plant and some water, you know? And sometimes people have to hear something seven times before they decide to give their life to Christ or whatever, that relational aspect of that has always felt more authentic to me.
If I’m excited about something, man, I can talk about it and it’s – I don’t feel you know, embarrassed, I don’t feel awkward. Even if they don’t like it or don’t want to hear it, I can still talk about it and so, this new view for me, it’s a new view of eternity and heaven and all that stuff really has helped me. In fact, I’ll tell you that I asked, for Christmas, I asked for a copy of Van Gogh's, Starry, Starry Night.
It’s going in my office and I have already shared with a couple of people at work that I was going to get a copy of it because there’s this story, I don’t remember if you told it or where I heard it but that Van Gogh painted that when he was in the insane asylum and he was looking out the window and there’s a theory that he was actually seeing into one of these thin places. Like, when Elijah was – so, he and his servant were surrounded by the enemy army, and then he prayed, “God, open my servant’s eyes so he can see your army surrounding them.”
And so, that was one of those thin places where that veil between our existence and the spiritual realm, like, was thin enough that you could see through it and so, like I get excited talking about that painting and that story and I was telling my kids about it at Christmas. So, even that kind of thing in the past, I might have felt like weird about talking about that kind of stuff but now, I have a much better foundation that makes that feel very authentic for me.
[0:44:18.4] JR: Yeah, it’s good, and listen, I know people who are still walking with the Lord today because 50 years ago somebody walked up to him on the street and just started preaching the gospel but in this cultural moment, when there is much less baseline understanding of what scripture says, we need a new model for how to share the gospel and I get into this in The Sacredness of Secular Work.
I spent 80% of the book teaching believers how the work merits beyond sharing the gospel. Because I think that’s essential for you being fully alive Monday through Friday and then at the end it said, “And hey, oh, by the way, here’s what I’ve seen really work in people who are making disciples in 2024, not 1974, right? And here’s what this looks like.” We talk about this list of launchers to move conversations from the service to the series to the spiritual that is relational first and confrontational second.
I believe more in line with the model of Christ, which was far less transactional evangelism as we’ve seen historically in modern evangelicalism, and much more relational, much more viewing people as image bearers with intrinsic value and not just salvation projects. I’m just thrilled to hear that the book’s been helpful to you, Linda. It’s not the book, it’s not the messenger, it’s the message and these biblical truths that you’ve been unpacking. So, I love hearing them.
Hey, speaking of books, if I open up your Amazon order history right now, what books are you buying over and over and over again, to give to people on your team, friends, family, et cetera?
[0:45:54.8] LB: Okay, well, you know, I’m a Jordan Raynor super fan. So –
[0:45:58.1] JR: I’ve heard.
[0:45:57.4] LB: So, seriously, yeah. Seriously, Redeem Your Time, The Word Before Work, The Creator in You.
[0:46:04.1] JR: Oh, come on now, I didn’t know that.
[0:46:06.3] LB: Like, everybody I mentor, the Redeeming Your Time and The Word Before Work, have even gone through those with some people. I’ve already pre-ordered my box of The Sacredness of Secular Work.
[0:46:15.4] JR: I was to say, you bought like a whole box or two, or something crazy.
[0:46:18.0] LB: I did, I did, and so I’ve got those. But then, separate from Jordan Raynor’s books.
[0:46:24.2] JR: Yes, please.
[0:46:25.2] LB: Yeah, I love Beth Moore has one called Made to Flourish: Cultivating an Abundant Life, and the book itself is beautiful. The pages, it’s super thick pages and just the artwork and the way she’s written it. It’s kind of a daily devotional but listen, when I first got it, I read half of it in one sitting. It was –
[0:46:45.1] JR: Wow.
[0:46:45.5] LB: So, I’ve given that a lot. It’s beautiful, it’s a beautiful book. Then work-related, there’s one by Marilee Adams called Change Your Questions, Change Your Life.
[0:46:55.1] JR: Yeah, I’ve seen this.
[0:46:56.3] LB: Yeah, it’s about not being the answer man and having all the answers and being sure that you’re asking questions, instead of trying to have all the answers, it’s great. All of Patrick Lencioni’s stuff. You know, he’s the famous, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. His stuff is so great and then there’s one I have to tell you about. The current title is called, Tempered Radicals: How Everyday Leaders Inspire Change at Work.
Well, it was later republished, called, Rocking The Boat: How Tempered Radicals Affect Change Without Making Trouble, and the gist of it is, how to rock the boat without getting thrown overboard.
[0:47:31.8] JR: That’s good.
[0:47:33.1] LB: I love that idea. I feel like that’s what I’m trying to do throughout my career, is rock the boat enough that it can affect some change without me totally getting thrown overboard.
[0:47:43.9] JR: Yeah, it’s really good, I love that. Hey, who do you want to hear on this podcast?
[0:47:47.3] LB: Cynt Marshal, CEO of the Dallas Mavericks.
[0:47:49.4] JR: Oh, man. Hey, all right. Cynt has an open-ended invitation. I love Cynt Marshal. In fact, we just got reconnected recently. We crossed paths very briefly when I was writing Master of One. We just got reconnected, I got a remind her. She’s got an open invitation to the show.
[0:48:06.8] LB: Yeah. I joined the board that she chairs and so, when I see her I’ll tell her about it and, Chip and Joana Gains. [inaudible 0:48:14.9]
[0:48:13.7] JR: Yeah, great answer.
[0:48:16.5] LB: And RGIII. Robert Griffin III. He was the Baylor quarterback. He went on to the NFL, Washington Commanders. Now, he’s a sports commentator. So, Texas connections.
[0:48:26.2] JR: Texas. Texas forever. I love it. Dr. Braddy, before we wrap up, you’re talking to this global audience of mere Christians, very diverse vocationally. What’s one thing you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?
[0:48:41.1] LB: I think the thought on how we live and work for me are to keep learning and growing spiritually and professionally and I mentioned, listen more than you talk, speak truth with kindness, look for ways to do justice, and the scriptures are, “Be quick to listen, slow to speak, be full of grace and truth, do justly, love mercy and walk humbly.”
[0:49:04.7] JR: You know in The Sacredness of Secular Work, I’m really attacking this very modern lie that the great commission is somehow the only thing Christ's followers are called to and I heard somebody for the first time refer to Micah 6:8 as the great requirement recently. I was like, “Dang.”
[0:49:18.7] LB: I like that.
[0:49:19.8] JR: It’s good, it’s good. Jesus gave us the greatest commandments, Micah gave us the great requirement. I love it. Hey, Linda, seriously, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day leaning into the great commission and the great requirement and the great commandment and simply loving your neighbor as yourself through your work, for loving your team and your community and I believe distinctly, Christ-like ways.
And for reminding us today that God does not just see our work as an opportunity for ministry. He sees the work itself as ministry, as that pink Baskin Robins spoon that is giving other people a taste of the eternal kingdom of God.
Friends, if you want to learn more about the remarkable leader that is my friend Linda Braddy, check out her website, lindabraddy.com. By the way, P.S. I had not seen your site until my producers were prepping me for this episode. This is one of the best personal websites I’ve seen in a really, really long time.
[0:50:19.7] LB: Seriously?
[0:50:19.9] JR: You spent some time on this. Yes.
[0:50:20.9] LB: I did. It was during COVID.
[0:50:24.6] JR: I love it. You’ve got like current readings on there, you got great quotes. You’re just killing it in every area of life. Linda, seriously, thank you for having out with us on the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:50:34.8] LB: Thank you Jordan, it’s been great.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:50:38.3] JR: I loved that episode, I hope you did as well. Hey, thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I’ll see you next time.
[END]