Play as the secret to mastery and experiencing the gospel
Jordan Raynor sits down with Kristin Joy Taylor, Illustrator of A Star for You, to talk about why play is so crucial to mastery and experiencing the gospel, what God’s promise to Abraham has to do with your work, and why she and her friend drove 16 hours to thank a pastor in-person for his sermon.
Links Mentioned:
[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who is pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work.
Today's guest is my dear friend, Kristin Joy Taylor. She is one of the most spiritually attuned and exceptional artists that I know. And by the way, if her name sounds familiar, it's likely because I told her story in the very first pages of Called to Create.
So, Kristin Joy and I finally sat down on the podcast to talk about why play is so crucial to mastering our crafts, and experiencing the joy of the Gospel. We talked about what God's promised Abraham has to do with our work today, and we talked about why Kristin Joy and her friend drove 16 hours to thank a pastor in person for how his sermon changed their life, and how I think that message can change your life in this episode. Please enjoy this conversation with my friend, Kristin Joy Taylor.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:33] JR: Kristin Joy, my friend, welcome.
[00:01:35] KJT: Hello, Jordan. Great to be here.
[00:01:38] JR: So, if my listeners recognize your name, it's probably because yours was the very first story I told in my very first book, Called to Create. Do you remember, when I was like prepping for this conversation, I was like, “I don't even know if I fully remember where that was.” Do you remember where we were sitting down for that?
[00:01:58] KJT: Oh, gosh, maybe at Whole Foods.
[00:01:59] JR: I think we were at Whole Foods, right around from the corner of your house. And I think it's the first interview I ever did for that book. So yeah, I told this story about how you once drove 16 hours to thank a pastor for how his words changed your life. For our listeners who haven't read Called to Create yet, could you share that story with us?
[00:02:22] KJT: Yeah, just the normal response to a good sermon, right?
[00:02:27] JR: Very normal, you say “Amen” and then you drive 16 hours after you listen to the podcast.
[00:02:29] KJT: I thought that's how it worked. Yeah. So, the story goes, there was a guest pastor here in Tampa that was coming through. He gave a sermon. The church I was at at the time was Tampa Covenant and his sermon was on why creativity matters. And all I can say is it was, there are sermons filled with truth, that's amazing. But then there are times where the truth is, like, anointed truth for a time that's anointed, for like what you need right then. So I just felt touched by the Spirit. So did something inside of me.
Anyway, he spoke on why creativity is so vital to being alive, to being a child of God. And with without getting into the whole sermon, I think the main thing that happened inside of me was, I always knew I was creative, but I didn't value it as what it's worth and what it means. And when he was preaching, I just felt this validation of being creative, and being an artist is about a way of being in the world. It's not about what you produce, necessarily. That's a byproduct. But the validation of, it's the way you see, it's the way that you walk around your life, what you notice, how you respond, how you engage, and to show up in your life in that way, and not hide, not hide how you've been made.
So anyway, I cried the whole time. One of those times when I’m like embarrassed because, what is happening? I just felt like someone had shoved a key in this locked place inside of me and opened the lock. And so anyway, after that, I had a small community of people that were creatives and we were all so moved and stirred by it. And so, the natural response was to gather up.
[00:04:40] JR: Get on the Honda Civic. Let's go.
[00:04:42] KJT: My friend Haley and I decided to take a road trip and to make this guy, Jerry King, one of the main stops. So, we jumped in a car with letters from our community of like, how the sermon had ministered to them and what his words meant, with the determination to just jump in the car and go bless someone's socks off.
[00:05:07] JR: So, timeout, a couple things. Number one, it would have been a lot more convenient if you just told him after the service, before he left town, right? For starters. Number two, I don't know if I've ever heard – did you find him? Did you find Jerry King in his own church? He was in Ohio.
[00:05:22] KJT: Super not a main city on the map, Ohio. So, my pastor was friends with him. He kind of vied for us and we did this like covert operation –
[00:05:31] JR: It’s like, these people aren't stalkers.
[00:05:33] KJT: Yes. These two girls are not crazy. It seems like they are, but they really aren't. So, he kind of vouched for us and said, “They're going to be stopping through.” And we even were like – we’re stopping through on our way to New York. Can we stop for a night in Ohio? And the best part of the story to me is, we get there, Jerry King’s like, “Hey, awesome. So glad you have a place to stay for the night. All right, I'm going I have a prayer meeting.” And he leaves and we're like, we just drove 16 hours to come bless this guy, and then he's not even going to be home. And we erupted in delirious laughter.
[00:06:13] JR: Wait, what happened? You delivered the letters, right?
[00:06:16] KJT: The next day. So, we went to leave. We just went to his office, and we're like, “Hey, just so you know, the real reason we came, this is why we're here.” And we like handed him this box of goodness and he was speechless. Like, “Oh, my God.” It almost made it better. You don't even know the impact you're having. And anyway, so –
[00:06:37] JR: That will preach, though. I mean, I think that’s story for a lot of us, right? We have no clue.
[00:06:43] KJT: What I think is so funny is I'm like a crazy 20 something. And I'm really responding to God. When I look back at that, I'm like, he touched me. And I'm really responding to him going after, thanking this guy who was really used by him. It's just crazy that it's in a book, and that's how I'm like, “You never know.”
[00:07:03] JR: You never know. Well, this is the thing when I interviewed you for Called to Create, that must have been back in 2016-ish, maybe 2015. The sermon was already pretty old at that point. And I remember you gave me like a CD recording, which I'm sure it's gone by now. I'm pretty sure the only artifact of this sermon remains in Called to Create. But I loved it so much. I want to read an excerpt from the sermon that made its way into the book, Jerry King said this, he said, “God presents himself in the Bible. First of all, as the Creator God. He could have begun the story in lots of different ways. But the place he chose to say human beings, this is who I am, I want you to know this about me first is here. I am the Creator God.” I think it was you who went on to say in the interview, just this idea that the church tends to treat creativity as this like, nice to have, but not a central part of the body of Christ. It's almost like it's this fringe thing, I think is how you put it. Why do you think that is?
[00:08:12] KJT: Oh, my gosh. It probably has something to do with each of our own value systems personally. It manifests collectively. I was in the same camp. I thought creativity was like someone saying, “Hey, you're really funny.” You're like, “Oh, thanks.” It's like a compliment. But it doesn't actually mean anything. It's not like you're saying, “Hey, I think you're called to be a comedian, or whatever.” It just felt like something that's additive to maybe the tasks that you do in life, but not essential. So, I don't know. I don't know why. It's not a major component. But obviously, that message, I mean, spiritually did something in that moment. For me, and I think for others too, just this engage your life and the world around you in this Imago Dei way. Because you're made in His image.
[00:09:14] JR: In his creative image.
[00:09:15] KJT: Yes.
[00:09:15] JR: Remind me, what were you doing before the sermon for work? And how did the sermon change how you viewed your work kind of moving forward?
[00:09:25] KJT: So, before that, I grew up, I didn't paint or draw or anything like that. And it wasn't until college, I was in college for photography, and my roommate at the time, pulled out one night, in our studio apartment, she pulled out her oil paints, canvases, and she's like, “Hey, let's paint tonight.” And I was like, “Well, I can't paint. I've never painted before.” And she was like, “Oh, that doesn't matter. Let's just be creative.” I was like, “Okay.”
[00:09:55] JR: You know, typical party.
[00:09:58] KJT: Yeah. So, it ended up we like had this amazing time, just music on, coffee, drop cloths, and we painted. And I painted something that, like I actually looked at. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, can I paint? I didn't know I could paint.” And then it became like – it was so enjoyable that the process of sitting down almost meditatively, you've got music and community, and you're just with each other. And letting whatever's inside kind of come out on the canvas. It doesn't matter what it is, and I think for me, it was like that. Maybe this answers your other question about the church.
But I think I had a performance school mindset about art, and probably even my faith, like it felt like you've got to do it the right way. You've got to know how you can't mess up or make mistakes. That was my own hang-ups, kind of like a perfectionistic mindset. And so, to have someone sit down and basically be like, “Oh, yeah, like, this isn't for anything at all. This is for the act of creating. Let's just have fun.” And then the performance, the perfection, like all of that was inconsequential, because it wasn't even a part of the conversation. And from there, that's like, became something we did, like we would invite people over, we would have paint parties, and we would invite people that weren't artists, and just be like, “Hey, you want to come play with paint and like drink a pot of coffee and see what happens?” We would move all the furniture.
So, at that time, we were in this place of just creating for the fun of it, having fun, playing, it was tons of play. It was on the back of that, that the Jerry King sermon came. And so, it came in and validated, “Hey, what you're doing is actually even more important than what you think. You're practicing something that's really vital to your humanity. Keep going, don't stop.” So, it was a really awesome tee up before that word that he delivered.
[00:12:13] JR: Yeah, because to create is to create in the image of God and the image of how God designed us to create and fill the earth and subdue it. And not just with function, but with beauty. I had Makoto Fujimura, the artist on the podcast recently. He's amazing. We had this great conversation about our utilitarian-obsessed culture. Like everything has to have a practical use. There's no time for fun, there's only time for function, right? And you just don't see that in Genesis, right? Yes, God created order, but he also created it with gratuitous beauty. Needless beauty.
[00:12:55] KJT: Absolutely. This has been so fun, just as a gratitude statement to you to actually like, go back and look at my own process and story for the sake of this conversation, and I'm seeing all these connections. And one of the main things, I was like processing with my husband, and I'm like, “You know, I think that really the play was so instrumental for me, for everything that would come after.” But it had to start in a play, low-risk, no fear of failure place. And it was crazy, because when I'm talking to him, he was like, “This reminds me of a documentary In Search of Greatness.” Have you ever watched that? It's about athletes that excel, like the world's best athletes, like Jerry Rice, and Michael Jordan, all these guys. And the commonality between these masters was the amount of time that they spent in unstructured play, both in childhood and into adulthood. Because all of that fear, failure, performance goes away.
And then you have this free space to experiment, to risk, to fail, to try again, to discover. It's like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense, and I love that in God's wisdom in kind of how he was forming me, he knew, “Okay, we've got to get this off of her first.” This fear of like it having to be a “right way”, or kind of what I produce either validates that I am or am not an artist or a creative, and start from a place that's like, “No, this is who you are, and now you have the freedom to discover it and to become it. You already are that. So now it's an open field. It's open play. Go have fun.”
[00:14:58] JR: I love that.
[00:15:00] KJT: And that set me up. Oh, my gosh. So, it became a brand-new language for me to explore and be present to my life and to God. Creativity became a pathway of connection with him, more than it became a trade I was trying to get good at. If that makes sense.
[00:15:21] JR: Yeah, totally.
[00:15:22] KJT: It became a language. It's just really beautiful to look back at that process and be like, “Wow, I didn't even know that's what you were doing, God.”
[00:15:32] JR: Dolly Parton wrote this, like extraordinary book called Song Teller, which is basically her life in autobiography through her songs. She says, like, really early on, she says, “I feel like I'm closest to God when I write songs.” I do think there's something to that, like when you're doing the work you know God made you to do, there's a way of communing with him as you do the work. That's a worship, right? I'm curious. So, since hearing that sermon, fast forward a little bit, you and your husband, Tim, have welcomed a little one in your family via adoption, which I'm the biggest fan of in the world, as you know. I'm curious what you guys are doing to help your daughter see that because God is creative, she is too.
[00:16:15] KJT: I think it's just in constant validation of the things that she's drawn to, and that she expresses and engages in. So, she actually says she wants to be an illustrator.
[00:16:32] JR: Really?
[00:16:33] KJT: Yeah, she draws pictures and wants to write the story. And the other day, I was talking to her because she's got an incredible language. I think God has given her the gift of whatever that part of the brain is that can access language and words and be able to connect the meaning, put them in context. She has at age six, to me, beyond what I experienced with other kids. And so, I'm like, “Maya, I just think God has given you so many words. Do you think you'll read a book one day?” And she's like, “I'm going to write a lot of books, mom.”
[00:17:07] JR: I love it.
[00:17:07] KJT: I was like, “Okay.” I just think in that same way that kind of I came to that place of like, it's already who you are, you get to discover it, cultivating that with her like you already are. God has given you things that are inside of you, and now you just get to walk a path that he's already prepared and that's exciting. You don't have to make the path happen. He already knows. So, let's just follow it. Let's follow him.
[00:17:34] JR: As you know, it’s maybe one of the first times my listeners here, and on April 5th, I'm releasing my first children's book, The Creator in You.
[00:17:43] KJT: Can't wait.
[00:17:44] JR: This is why I wrote this book, honestly. Tell Maya, tell my girls, Ellison, Kate and Emery and all of our listeners’ kids connect God's creative work to their own, current work, future work, whatever. And it's funny as I was prepping for this conversation, I was like, “Wait a second, yet again.” You were there at the beginning of Called to Create, you are also there at the very beginning of The Creator in You, Whole Foods. I don't have many needs of Whole Foods, but for whatever reason, every Jordan Raynor project starts with meeting with Kristin Joy at Whole Foods on North Dale Mabry in Tampa. And you were also the first person to ever take a stab at illustrating a spread of this book. Still one of my treasures.
[00:18:27] KJT: Yes. So fun.
[00:18:30] JR: So, my publisher, for whatever reason, decided to hire another illustrator in their network, who did a phenomenal job. But I still look at that first spread you sent all the time. I love it so, so much. But you've got a sneak peek at the final artwork at this book. What do you think? We haven’t talked about it.
[00:18:49] KJT: Oh, my word. It's exactly as it should be. So, as much as you know, I want to wrestle your publisher, because I loved your story. I think, oh, my gosh, who they went with, and the work is, it's very alive. It's very vibrant, not just in like in color, but in the movement, the concepts. And I think you're drawn up. You’re drawn up into a bigger reality, a bigger story. It's gorgeous.
[00:19:25] JR: Another goal. You and I talked about that at the first meeting. I was like, I want a children's book that works for five-year-olds and 55-year-olds. I want it to be a Pixar movie, right? And to do that, it's got to be epic. It's got to be really big, because the creation story is.
[00:19:41] KJT: That's a good word. It's epic.
[00:19:42] JR: It's epic. Yeah, that's it. That's the word. So, you went on to publish your own extraordinary children's book, which I love and read to my girls all the time. It just came out a few months ago. Tell us about this book A Star for You.
[00:19:57] KJT: Yes. Okay. So, A Start for You is written by my cousin-in-law, Brianna Elizabeth Taylor.
[00:20:03] JR: What is a cousin-in-law? We don't need to talk – I don't care but keep going.
[00:20:10] KJT: My husband's cousin’s wife.
[00:20:13] JR: There you go. Okay, got it.
[00:20:14] KJT: So, she wrote this beautiful story, exploring connections between the night sky, between the stars, and between God's family. So, kind of entering this question of like, what if the story of the stars, it's really a story about family? Beginning with this conversation, between Abraham and God out on the hill that night, where God looked up and said, “I’m going to make your descendants, as many as the stars that you see.” It's a beautiful story. Same feel of like, it's an epic story.
[00:20:50] JR: Yeah, which is why I love it. It's a really big story.
[00:20:52] KJT: Yeah, but it's also accessible and playful, but it's not watered down to the point that I'm in the same boat as you. I feel like you could, as a five-year-old or a 10-year-old look through this book and feel something from it, you know, feel drawn to God, to spiritual reality that is real in the world. And so, I'm really proud of it. I can't believe it's finished. Yeah, I think it's a really beautiful story that I hope ministers to all ages.
[00:21:24] JR: I love it. The message of this book is deeply personal, that God knew the name of every one of those stars promised to Abraham, including yours, Kristin Joy Taylor.
[00:21:42] KJT: Yes.
[00:21:41] JR: As you've been like making this book, like, how has that truth impacted your life? How has it impacted the way you view your work? Just this truth that there's always been a star predestined by God for you?
[00:21:54] KJT: Oh, my word. Well, I mean, first of all, it just produces worship. And that was part of in the process of working on it. I came to my own creative roadblocks and fears and fear of failure and all of that. Whenever I dropped into actually like, what is this really saying, and what am I conveying, it just downshifted into worship, and then we're off to the races. Because it is unbelievable. I mean, it is extravagant, that we're not just added to the family at some point when we exist. But like this was planned from the beginning, long, long ago, before we existed, kind of the most beautiful revelation to me, in the process of working on it was considering my daughter's adoption story. Because we started the process of adoption, it took three and a half years. So, she wasn't even alive for a year and a half of our movement toward her.
So, we had named her, made space for her, praying for her, like this choice to bring her into our family started before she was ever conceived. I think for me, what I experienced illustrating this book, and when I consider God and my own adoption, I'm like, blown away that there was the love of the Creator moving toward me to bring me into His family, before I was ever on the map. Like, before I ever existed, He had already named me, He had already made room for me, and interceded for me and prayed for me all to bring me into the intimacy of His heart and His home. And, obviously, having experienced that through adoption, it's another avenue that He gave for us to understand the truth of who He is, as a father, and specifically the spirit of adoption. So, that was an amazing gift in the process of this, just really chewing on that eternal before the foundations of the world plan that he had.
[00:24:10] JR: It's beautiful. And knowing that he adopted us into His family, before we did a single thing, good or bad, connected to our work. I think a lot of times, we don't say it explicitly, but implicitly, we're living a sermon that says that I've got to please God by doing all these good work for Him. The gospel shouldn't motivate us to be ambitious but it works. But Ephesians 2:8-9 assures us that we are saved by faith alone. We have been adopted outside of our works, regardless of what we've done. I was thinking I heard somebody preaching on this the other day, and never really thought about before, but you know Jesus's baptism. The Father's blessing comes before Jesus begins his three-year public ministry. This is my son in whom I'm well pleased. And then he goes out, and kicks off this public ministry, right? The blessing comes first, only in Christianity, do we get the verdict before the performance. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
[00:25:10] KJT: Totally. I think that goes back to like, how can you become who He's made you to be? It has to be from a place of freedom. First, you can't play unless you're free. It's amazing to me that the gospel is the place that says 100%, before you do a thing, you are free. Because of what I've done, you are accepted. This is who you are. I'm going to name what you are and who you are to me, before you ever actually do anything that manifest that. That freedom, as opposed to like, you know what, after you work for a while, we'll take a survey of your spouse, and then determine your worth and who you are. It's just so not that way and that is just so freeing.
[00:26:02] JR: Alright, I want to do a deep dive into this. You mentioned this a couple of times, and I've been thinking about it a lot over the last three weeks, play. I think there's a spiritual dimension to this, but also, I think there's like a really practical dimension of – you mentioned this before, play is essential to mastering our crafts. So, let's start here. How does the gospel enable you, give you the freedom, and permission to play? Try to articulate that for us, if you can.
[00:26:30] KJT: I think knowing that Jesus has done it all, like, it's finished, he's done all the heavy lifting. Then to actually enter into the good news of the gospel, I think that's part of it right there is to say, “Hey, kids, you're free.” And it is actually for freedom, that I set you free. So, it makes me wonder like, what was it like pre-fall, pre-disconnection from the presence of God, the affirmation of the presence of God? Like how playful were Adam and Eve?
Because there's something too, I think, starting that way, as kids, that we naturally gravitate, when we're living in the delight of our parents, when all of our needs are taken care of, we're not stressed, we're like, given to people to meet all of our needs. And then you're free to play. You're not thinking about other stuff, bogged down with all the things you need to get done, agenda, control all of this. So, it's so natural for kids to just show up at each other's house and say, Let's play.” And there's nothing they're working toward. It's just a delight response to life.
[00:27:56] JR: So, I love this. I love this picture, in response to that. However, Paul says, again, we just talked about Ephesians 2:8-9. We've been saved by faith, not by works. But first 10 is we have been saved for good works, right? Like part of our salvation, is not to just sit around and play and wait for the kingdom to drop from the sky, right? Part of our purpose is to help cultivate the kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. So, how do you personally hold these things’ intention, that yes, the gospel should lead Christians to this unique, defiant joy. But also, we've been saved for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
[00:28:35] KJT: Yeah, this is a great question. And this is where I've been sitting in considering my story.
[00:28:39] JR: And for the record, I do not have the answer to this question. This is a selfish question.
[00:28:47] KJT: So, for me, as I've considered the story that he's telling, in my own life, I have found this call from him to play from a responsive, worshipful, position of my heart. And I think in order to play, you have to trust that he actually knows the process, where you're headed, what the plan is. And so, I don't know. I look back and I'm like, if at any point, I tried to like jump ship, and run ahead with my own plans, given what I was making or ideas that I had, or whatever, my story would be different. I'm not saying this is everybody's story. But for me, I look at the unstructured play, the freedom, the delight, it was really cultivating intimacy with God. So, my main kind of creative practice, which I would call a spiritual practice at this point was art journaling. It cultivated becoming aware to the presence of God in my daily life.
If that answers your question, I just think for me, the play really meant intimacy and freedom and getting to know the heart and the presence of God, which, for me turned out to be he really did present himself, like an artist. So, I would be like, smitten by the beauty around me. It was an avenue for him to really minister to me about like, “Hey, I make really beautiful things. I tell really beautiful stories. I'm constantly creating. There's a process to all of this.” And that for me, to take my hands off the wheel, and have the simplicity of a child, I do think there is something to this scripture that says to enter the kingdom, you do have to become like a child again. To fall back on, I have a Father who has a plan, and my job is to be tuned in to his voice. That's my mastery work, right there, is to be tuned into the voice of God. And whatever flows from there is a beautiful souvenir.
[00:31:13] JR: Yeah. This is fascinating to me. I'm always thinking like three books ahead. There’s the book of marketing now, there's the book I'm writing now, and then there's like the books after that. Who knows what that book’s going to be? But one of the seeds –
[00:31:28] KJT: Maybe it's going to be about play?
[00:31:30] JR: Yeah, seriously. This is one of the seeds that's starting to germinate in my mind, and here's why. I mean, all my work, the podcast, the books, whatever, are helping Christians connect eternal purpose to the work that they're doing in the world. I feel like I and our audience run the risk of being too purpose-driven. I do think there's such a thing. So purpose-obsessed that we forget to delight in the joy of the Gospel. I was just like, really convicted of this, a couple months ago, sitting on the couch with my wife, Kara. And I just had been, I was like, don't be offended by this. But there is almost nothing I do for the pure joy of doing it. Even with my kids. I love being with my kids. I love playing with my wife, and we play. But it's all intentional, right? I'm parenting my kids, I want to be a good dad. So, I play with my kids. And I just don't know that that's where God's will is, for our lives, to be so purpose driven, that we're not experiencing sonship and daughtership and simply enjoying being a child of the King. Do you know what I'm saying here?
[00:32:37] KJT: Yeah, I know what you're saying. And I think that's where maybe part of the unique story that he cultivated in me, like, I feel like the messenger of play, because I do think, and I've experienced it myself, leaving the play myself to, “Oh, I got to do the thing. And I have got to be a grown up. And I've got to have a plan here.” And I do think there's balance, like, it's not one or the other. Like you said, it's not, I'm just going to hold up in my house and play and do nothing else.
But I do think, I almost would say, I don't know if in the West we can run the risk of like, “Oh, no, we can't get too out of hand with play”, because our culture is so wired for what you said, Fujimura said, the utilitarian, purpose-driven, whatever. And though I do – when I was thinking of this, I thought, maybe part of it is just coming back to the place of going what am I called to. One of the main things I'm called to is to enjoy God, to enjoy the presence of God, to enjoy the life he's given me and be fully present. And I would say some of the purpose-driven stuff, we can't be present. Because we're working for something out ahead, still good things, could still be things God's calling us to. But I do think, I would say, probably for most of us, it's not like we're going to go overboard with the message.
[00:34:23] JR: Yeah, totally.
[00:34:23] KJT: Delight, play, be present in such a way that you can actually see things like the beauty that is in your backyard, or the way that your daughter plays there. I just come back to that, like, this is so ministered to me to think about. He's like, the main thing I want for you is to be present to me and my presence with you. That's it. That's the main thing and then everything will flow from this intimacy that is cultivated.
[00:34:59] JR: I've been convicted of the need for play, for the good of my soul, right? I do think this is part of, yes, [inaudible 00:35:05] says doing work with God and not just for God. I think play is an ingredient to that recipe. But I also think play is critical to mastering any craft, vocationally. I mean, you've already alluded to this, right? Play was what awakened you to think, “Maybe God designed me to be an artist.” And now, I think you're pursuing world class mastery of that craft. You're really good at what you do. I am curious, though, oftentimes the thing that we find ourselves doing for pay started with play, but then the play gets sucked out of it. Because the main thing, it's the job, right? How do you ensure that the work still feels playful even when you're earning income from it?
[00:35:49] KJT: That's a great question. It requires playing outside of the projects in which you're paid for. As much as there was still play and delight and worship in the creating of A Star for You, illustrations, I could feel myself holding back playing because I have to do the real thing. So, I like almost have guilt for like, well, you can't spend your time playing when you have a paid job that's being waited on to like finish this. So, I felt that tension too, and I just think what I've come back to is, “Oh, my gosh, you need to constantly be playing in some way, which is going to inform, basically, more creativity and playfulness in the work that you're given that's for like an actual project.”
It was cool. Tim got me, my husband, he got me the book Golden Sea by Fujimura. And he had a section in there, and I hope I don't butcher it, about how he was commissioned to do paintings for the four Gospels, for one of the Bible translations. And he said, he had those set up in a studio, but then he had a canvas off in the corner, that was his play canvas. So, he would do like, where he's got to be focused, he's trying to fit something into a commission of someone's vision and what they're asking of him, but he had to step away at times, and go to the play canvas, and freely explore and risk and all of that there. And he said that, that painting, the play one, became one of the most intriguing paintings that everyone wanted to see. I just thought, “There it is.” The need to not just do work for a “purpose”, even though that is definitely 100%, still a part of all of this. But the need to play and have that low-risk, utilitarian vibe, not present, so that you can be free. And there's still so much more. I feel the message too, the play message, even though I feel like I've lived a lot of it, I just still feel him speaking about this.
[00:38:24] JR: This is how we may make some creative connections, in my own mind and for my own work. So, according to my readers, this is not my opinion, but just go look at the Amazon reviews. This nonfiction book I just released, Redeeming Your Time is my best book so far. And I was writing it in – I’m going to make sure, yeah, I was writing this in 2020. And I think part of the reason why that book is so good, is it was one of the few times I was really playing in a meaningful way. So, I've never talked about this on the podcast. But at this time, on the week on Saturdays, a buddy of mine and I were writing a TV show. And actually, we're in talks with Netflix and a few other people about making this thing, which is super cool.
But it started out as pure play. It was pure fun. It was pure joy. And I think that made the writing on the main thing better. I was just working out different muscles that I wasn't used to working. I just think this is critical for creators but for anyone working in any type of job, to find ways to play to get better at the craft and to experience the joy of adoption into God's family, right?
[00:39:37] KJT: Absolutely.
[00:39:37] JR: All right, Kristin Joy, this is terrific. Three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?
[00:39:49] KJT: Oh, hands down the easiest question of my life, it's Every Moment Holy by Douglas McKelvey. Because to me, it is that way of being in the world. It's a liturgy book for everyday moments. And so, there's liturgies for things like washing windows, having a yard sale, like the craziest changing a diaper, there's a liturgy for changing a diaper. And it is also in conjunction with your other question, who would you have on the podcast is. I would be interested in knowing this guy's story because his ability to write and be present to the most mundane moments and offer them up as worship and connection with God is breathtaking to me. And that book literally goes with me everywhere I go. It goes on vacation. It goes in the car. It goes everywhere, and it makes life richer, because you're taking the literal elements of everyday life and letting it be a moment where you see God's presence right here, right now, and are able to respond, which to me is the definition of worship, responding to His presence and His grace in our everyday lives. So, that's one of my favorites.
[00:41:14] JR: McKelvey is not that old, I don’t think.
[00:41:18] KJT: I’m like, what kind of street miles do you have in your spiritual life that you can glean this much meaning out of all these moments. So yeah, that's a huge blessing.
[00:41:30] JR: Well, look at you, answering two questions with one stone. I'm very impressed.
[00:41:34] KJT: I'm getting creative. I'm playing right now. The other book, I don't know if I'm allowed to say two.
[00:41:38] JR: Yeah, cool. You can say as many as you want.
[00:41:39] KJT: Is Ish. It's a children's book by Peter Reynolds.
[00:41:43] JR: I don't know this.
[00:41:44] KJT: What? Oh, my gosh. Okay. So, it is a book that I think every person, every adult should read, especially if you're in any vein creative. He's got a creative trilogy, called, it might be just called Creative trilogy, it's Ish, Dot, and Sky Color. But it's basically a story about someone being like creative, but not really believing in their creativity, and then coming to understand what it really means to be an artist. It's beautiful.
[00:42:17] JR: Oh, my gosh, I got to check this out. Okay, great. Done. Alright, last question. What's one thing from our conversation today that you want to reiterate before we sign off?
[00:42:25] KJT: I think I was thinking of this ahead of time. I want to reiterate, we've said it enough, but the importance of unstructured play, and giving yourself permission. That it's not a fringe or frill, like luxury, but it's a necessity to your heart staying alive.
[00:42:51] JR: Yeah, that's real. And that's what brought me to this. Alright. so real quick. I'm in Austin, Texas last week, with 35 really high performing Christian dudes. And I don't even remember how exactly it came up. But this idea of a lack of play, and hearts dying to be dramatic, came up. And to my shock, it became the theme of the week. Everybody raised their hand was like, “Oh, yeah, this is a thing. This is a thing that we're battling with.” Which is part of why it sent me down this path of starting to read about this. I'm reading this book, by I think his name is Dr. Stuart Brown called Play, right now. It's really good about this topic. But yeah, I'm all in. Just thinking about this, praying about this. It's a big deal.
[00:43:45] KJT: It is, yeah. I really want to impact more. So, that and then I would say, trusting the process. If there's any gift that I feel I've experienced and continue to want to live into, it's that idea of what I said of like trusting that God actually, he's the only one who does know the process and where you're headed. But what it means to me looking back is like, oh, man, when I was doing drop cloth, living room floor paint parties, that were just for fun, that was actually formational to places that were along the journey and where I was headed. But I didn't know it then. So, I think when I consider places where in my mind, like, I don't know where I'm headed, I don't know what's happening, or this doesn't “matter”. And looking back and going, oh, man, there's not anything that doesn't matter or isn't an actual place on the map of process. Because every step of the process of your creative journey, or your good works that God prepared for you to do, everything is setting up everything else. And so, there's nothing that isn't important along that path.
[00:45:00] JR: That's a good word. Kristin Joy, my friend, I can't believe it took you this long to come on the podcast, for the record. Okay. But I just want to commend you for the exceptional, beautiful work you create. Thank you for reminding us of the God-given call of creativity, and that we as image bearers are called to create in his image. So, thank you for that. Thank you for sharing a little bit of A Star for You. By the way, guys, if you want to get a copy, you can get it right now at astarforyoubook.com. My friend, thanks again for joining us.
[00:45:33] KJT: Thank you, Jordan.
[OUTRO]
[00:45:36] JR: Kristin Joy is such a gift to the world. I'm so grateful for her and her husband, Tim and the incredible work that they do. Hey, listen, I mentioned it real briefly in the podcast, but my first children's book, The Creator In You, which really is exploring a lot of the things we were talking about early on, about us being made in the image of a creator God. It's available right now on Amazon for preorder. It drops, April 5th, go check it out. Thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
[END]