Why and how to boast in pain professionally and personally
What the tragic death of her son taught her about life and work, how to resolve conflicts at work in a Christ-honoring way, and how refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit has cost her tens of thousands of dollars.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors, or religious professionals, but who work as audiologists, housekeepers, and Special Ed teachers? That's the question we explore every week. Today, I'm posing it to my friend, Katelyn James. She’s the founder of Katelyn James Photography + Education, teaching more than 40,000 photographers how to build profitable and purposeful businesses.
Katelyn and I recently sat down to talk about what the tragic death of her son taught her about life and work. We talked about how to resolve conflicts at work in a Christ-honoring way, and how refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit has cost Katelyn not just communion with the Father, but tens of thousands of dollars. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with my friend, Katelyn James.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:11] JR: Katelyn, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:12] KJ: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I'm so excited.
[00:01:16] JR: I'm so excited. Hey, I read in your – we've known each other for a few months, but I read something in your bio. You kind of knew you're an entrepreneur as a kid. Is that right?
[00:01:23] KJ: Yes. Well, I didn't know what an entrepreneur was. But apparently, I was one.
[00:01:26] JR: An entrepreneur, yeah.
[00:01:28] KJ: Yeah. Oh, man. It's so funny, because I look back now, I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, that's where all this started.” I started buying these 90-cent plates from Walmart, and I'd paint them and then I'd bake them in my mom's oven, and then I would take them to craft fairs, and I'd make like $1,000 and I'd sell them for like, 45 bucks.
[00:01:50] JR: What a country.
[00:01:51] KJ: Yeah. So, I came home the first time that happened, it's like 15, I don't know, maybe even a 14-year-old. First time that happened, I couldn't even drive but I made $1,000 at a craft show. And I just thought, “Oh, my gosh, this is my calling in life.” And it was not my calling in life. But it was my calling to work for myself, use my gift, all the above. So, that was my – and honestly, what's crazy is we run a multimillion-dollar business and the same EIN number with the state of Virginia, is the same number that Katelyn’s Crafts started with.
[00:02:22] JR: Stop.
[00:02:24] KJ: Yes, we've just changed the name multiple times.
[00:02:27] JR: That's so good. I love that so much. Yeah, I, like you, as a kid, I don't think many kids self-identify as entrepreneurs. But looking back, you're like, “Oh, yeah, you can see that thread throughout.” I was selling baseball cards in my neighborhood, when I was eight. That seed that God plants in the hearts of some people. So, this photography business kind of started right out of college. Do I understand that right? Basically, just to avoid having a cubicle job?
[00:02:56] KJ: Exactly. It started actually, in college. I worked out in my dorm room. I was 20. All my college roommates’ senior year, they were freaking out about resumes and getting internships, and I just made a promise to myself. If I could just make $24,000, and I was engaged, I'm like, Michael is going to be a youth pastor. He's going to make 40. So, combined, we could survive, pay the mortgage on this tiny, tiny little house, if I could just bring in $24,000. So, that was my goal. I surpassed that goal, even though I wasn't killing it back then. But yes, I started when I was 20, and that was, quite honestly, the best decision I ever made. Because I was – I had a 10-year head start on my life, career wise.
[00:03:37] JR: Totally. So, at the time, you're just your typical wedding photographer, right? You're just doing gigs, trading services, right?
[00:03:45] KJ: Yeah, shooting weddings. So, I was involved on campus, leading things. So, I'd go lead worship at a retreat for this Christian organization. I was in a varsity. I would do that, and then I would drive through the night to get to DC to shoot a wedding that I'd booked the next day. And then I drive back to the retreat. I'm like, I don't know how I survived that season in my life. But that was true hustle mode. But it was perfect. I had no husband, no kids, no responsibilities. I was just pushing my way through those first few years of business and, oh, my gosh, it paid off tenfold. So, I'm glad I did it. Even though I look back now, I think I was living on three hours of sleep every night.
[00:04:23] JR: Yeah. Today, your business looks a lot different. You got this significant company, teaching tens of thousands of photographers how to do this themselves. You're not doing a whole lot of shooting anymore. What led you to make that leap from solo wedding photographer to true entrepreneur, educator, et cetera?
[00:04:40] KJ: I think, well, I had this one launch that really opened my eyes. I had friends that I'd met in the industry that were a step or two ahead of me, and they would just keep saying, “Katelyn, take your workshops online. It's a goldmine.” And I'm like, “I don't understand how it's a goldmine.” Like, “You're sitting on a multimillion-dollar goldmine.” I had a launch, made six figures in a weekend. And I'm like, “Oh, no. My eyes have been opened.”
But what really allowed me to see more clearly, is that my impact, it wasn't just a financial decision. My impact and who I've reached, and the amount of people I have spoken into their lives through this role. I mean, I went from 12 people in a living room, teaching them in person, to 20,000 students around the world. It's like, I felt called to it. Financially, it made sense. And honestly, getting ready to start a family back then, it also made sense, because I didn't have to do as many in-person conferences or in-person workshops.
So, it was all those things combined. I really felt drawn to it, like the Lord was leading me in that direction. And so yeah, the scaling really started in 2014.
[00:05:46] JR: Yeah. On your website, it says that you help others build “profitable and purposeful businesses”, specifically photographers. How do you articulate the purpose of your business, Katelyn?
[00:05:59] KJ: That's a great question. I would say that all of my creative gifts were given to me in conjunction with a story that God's written for me to be able to impact our students. My hope is that and my prayer for all of our students, and we end all of our courses with – some people probably hate it, but I don't care. Some people love it, it's changed their life. We have lessons about purpose. Like, you were not given your creative eye, your passion, your drive, all of that was not just some accident or something for you just to serve yourself with. It was a purposeful part of the way you contribute to the rest of the world.
I want everyone to experience the joy that comes from living into that purpose that God has. So, if I can do that, through teaching you lighting and getting better at a craft. If I can do that, through teaching you more about Lightroom, more about posing, more about business strategy, but there is a sprinkle of Jesus and purpose and hope and in everything that we produce. That is what my hope is. That’s what I feel called to.
[00:07:00] JR: And even if you're not explicitly stating the name of Jesus as you talk about purpose, you're still conforming your students more to the image of Christ and pointing them away from themselves and towards service to others, right?
[00:07:12] KJ: Oh, yes, exactly. And it is so fascinating, because sometimes I'll think, “You know what, I didn't add that purpose video in”, and we'll get emails from people saying, “Hey, I'm a Christian and you didn't say you were, but I just got the feeling you were.” I'm like, “Well, that's good. I'm glad you can tell.”
[00:07:28] JR: You and I share a mutual friend, friends in Graham and Shay Cochrane, who’ve both been on this show. They have a lot of stories of that, like a lot of emails from YouTube subscribers were like, “I think you might be a Christian. Tell me more.” Which is fascinating. You said before that this tragic event in your family's history helped to clarify your purpose. Would you mind sharing that story with our listeners?
[00:07:55] KJ: Yes. Oh, I'd love to, and I'll try to do it condensed, because it is long.
[00:08:00] JR: You take your time. We have all the time in the world.
[00:08:02] KJ: Okay. Well, we started a family in 2017, and had a little girl. It was a pretty complicated pregnancy, but just a lot of random things like a tumor in my hand, which I almost had like a finger amputated, and it's my trigger finger for my camera. They don't make cameras for left handed people. So, I have to have my right index finger or else I can't hold a camera. And that finger, literally, a tumor popped up in the end of pregnancy and an oncologist was like, “If I don't operate on you next week, we're going to just amputate that part of your hand, and it'll be fine.” And I'm like, “No, no, no. You don’t understand.”
He was trying to talk me off the ledge. I’m like, “You can't talk me away from being petrified of losing a finger.” That happened but it was the first time, it was kind of a glimpse into how God can take something that seems awful and purposeless, and really do something to bring you closer into what he called me to as a mom. I was not in the right mindset. I was still a workaholic. I was still obsessed with my business. And literally, the month before my first child was born, I'm stuck in a cast. I had surgery wide awake, they're drilling into my bone, and I'm thinking to myself, what is happening?
But God broke me of workaholism through that experience. And I thought, “Oh, good. That's my story for life. I'm going to use that. I'm going teach from it.” Well, then, fast forward eight months later, surprise, we're having another baby. We were not planning on this. We're grateful. We were excited. But this baby at the 20-week ultrasound, we found that one, it was a boy, but two, he had life threatening complications. It wasn't just one thing, it was a lot of things. Swelling, misshapen skulls, very short arms and legs, and ascites which is basically water within the abdomen. So, we had testing done and he had Down Syndrome. And all of these complications were from that Down Syndrome diagnosis.
So, the doctor said, “Oh, this is devastating. I'm so sorry. He probably has two weeks.” Well, this little guy flipped breech, which basically means that his head is up, his feet are down. So, his body was only keeping – only had to keep his brain and his heart and his arms alive. And so, when he flipped, it expanded his life growing inside of me by three months. So, I carried a dying child for three months, every day, wondering like, “Is he still with us? I can't tell.” So, we bought an at-home Doppler. We went in for ultrasounds just to see him move around. Because we knew, once he was born, he would not be living, and this went on and on and on. And every week, we thought, surely this is the week where God will end his suffering and mine. It is fascinating.
During those three months, I truly was transformed into a new person spiritually. Now, I was barely hanging on by a thread. My sister's in the office. She can attest to like, I was not a fun person to live with. But I look back now, and my faith was completely transformed in a way that I don't think would ever even be possible unless you live through something like this.
[00:11:03] JR: How so?
[00:11:04] KJ: I was constantly – well, I just told, I lead our youth group at our church, and I just told him last week, I said, “I came to a realization that I had to go through a step of questions.” And I was saying to myself, either God is not even real, like this is all something that humans made up to make them feel better about life. Okay, so either he's not real or he is real, but he's not the good God that I have always grown up knowing him to be, because look at my situation. Or he's real, and he is actually good. And this horrific thing that I'm living through, he knows more than me, and I've got to trust that. And it was like, I always knew these options existed in my mind. But carrying a dying baby, knowing that his death is imminent, knowing that I'm planning a funeral for my second child, it's almost like it forced me to reckon with, “Katelyn, when the rubber meets the road, what do you truly believe?”
[00:11:56] JR: You experience the options. You experience the options that God was, indeed nonexistent.
[00:12:03] KJ: Yes. And that is terrifying. When you've grown up in the church, and you've grown up knowing Jesus since you're six. It's a terrifying thought to even consider, “What if this isn't real?” I am living through something that’s making me realize, yeah, the world's pretty awful place. How can a good God let someone who loves him so much go through so much pain? But I feel like my faith was completely transformed, because I just kept wrestling. And I came to this conclusion of like, “Okay, well, I know it is harder for me to explain to myself, the miracles, and the amazing things in the world without God. So, let's just get rid of option number one. I know there has to be a God. Now, I just got to decide, is he a bad God or is he actually good?”
I wrestled with that all over again, and I came to the conclusion that I'm not allowed to determine and define if God is good based on how I feel. That is such – I mean, in our culture today, feelings drive so many things, and it's devastating people's lives. So, I'm like, I can't trust my feelings from 8 AM to 8 PM, especially in this current state. So, I've got to trust and I have to know. And deep down, I feel like the Lord reassured me consistently, that he had a plan for this. And so, I started sharing even some of the doubts. I started sharing our story week – I don't know how many. I think it was 40,000 Instagram followers in three months, people that were just invested in our baby’s story.
And to this day – so anyway, he was born. He passed away as he was being born, but we got to see him and have pictures with him. Our daughter got to meet - our whole family got to meet him. And in the nurses, I mean, my favorite part of his birthday was nurses in the hospital, in tears were like, “We do this all the time. Sadly, we see stillbirth all the time. But something was different here.” And I'm like, “Oh, let me tell you why it was different.” It was beautiful. The day we lost him was actually incredibly joyful, which I had to be careful who I say that to. But for three months leading up to his death, the gift of those three months, was that I became a new person. I became – everything changed. My view on business changed. My view of God changed. My view of pain and purpose and suffering changed.
So, the day that we actually lost him was a day of celebration. This beautiful child, my only redhead, I'm a redhead and all three of my current children do not have red hair. But of course, this sweet boy would have red hair. He was wonderful and beautiful and he never suffered. He never went through pain. He went from knowing his mom to knowing Jesus instantaneously. It was beautiful.
We survived that and I have spent – it will be five years in May, which is hard to even say. I can't believe it's been that long. But I have spent years having conversations with moms losing twins, losing babies to Trisomy 13 or Trisomy 18, non-believers, believers, all over the spectrum. And it is one of the greatest joys of my life to one, get to talk about the son that I never got to raise. And two, to be able to say to women, genuinely, you will smile again and there is hope in this, and there is purpose in this. Unless you've been through that, you can't say that to somebody, right? Because they're not going to believe you. It's too horrific.
So, I came out. The other side business wise, this is mind blowing. We still, I should go back through the numbers. 2018, I didn't work for six months. I couldn't. I mean, I could barely get out of bed. I was depressed. But it was the biggest, most profitable year we have ever had in business. So, the Lord provided in so many ways and it really made me realize everything about my perspective of business of faith, of family. It all shifted because of this little boy.
[00:15:51] JR: Yeah. It's a pretty good reminder having that profitable of the year that God alone produces results in our work, in our businesses. It would have been very easy for you to keep this a private matter. Very understandable, everybody would have understood that. Not talk about it publicly. I mean, it's like on your business's website, you guys talk openly about this. Why have you done that?
[00:16:13] KJ: Well, I remember when he was diagnosed, I have a sweet friend who is a more private friend. She has a small business, has since gotten off social media, which makes sense for her. But I remember her texting me very intentionally and saying, “Don't feel like you have to share this. This is your story and you don't have to let the world in.” And I really thought about that. And for a little while, we didn't. But there was a line in the sand where Michael and I decided, “We're either going to barely survive this or we're going to trust the Lord with this, and we're going to thrive in it. And we're going to cross over that threshold, and let him use it.”
That meant, sitting in the pain long enough for it to transform you, which is a whole another conversation because humans don't like to do that. But I was forced to do that. Because he just kept living. So, I really felt like the longer his story went on, the more opportunities I saw God use his story. And it's funny, I thought I shared so much more than I did. But if I look back on my Instagram account, I didn't even share that much. But the little times that I felt like, I want the world to know this about my son's story, it was so powerful. And it was such a God-ordained piece of text or God-ordained blog posts. It almost wasn't me speaking.
I think, I look back now, and I do remember deleting a lot of things whenever it felt like, “Am I doing this for pity or am I doing this for my purpose?” And to this day now, I think about that. Am I posting something because I want the attention or I want the comments or I want the engagement? Or am I posting it because I feel called to? That's another thing I learned so clearly during that season.
[00:17:53] JR: Yeah. I commend you for being so public about this, because I think as Christ follow –I mean, this is what Paul did, right? Paul boasts in his weaknesses. He boasted in his pain. In fact, he said that he would only boast in his weaknesses and his pain because God gets greater glory that we can be honest about the pain and still say, “Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Right?
[00:18:16] KJ: Yes. Oh, it's so true. And it's fascinating because up until that season of my life, sure I had struggles here and there. But I always thought I don't even know what that verse means. I don't really know what Paul's talking about. But now that I – and we named the baby James because of James Chapter 1:2-4, “Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many.” I didn't even know what that verse meant. It just sounded good. But I lived through it and I've seen it be a real source of hope in my life. And before James, I never had that. So yes, 100%, yes.
[00:18:54] JR: You said, “Your view of business changed” through this experience. How so?
[00:18:59] KJ: I would say for me up until that point, we had just hit our stride with launching a new membership. It was incredibly profitable. We were seeing numbers we had never seen before. And I really feel like during that season, God just showed me. Like you said, it's up to him, right? We should have had our lowest year ever, because I did nothing. I didn't create new content. I didn't show up for anybody. I just survived my own personal struggle and that's the year that he – even thinking about it now. I mean, we had to buy a Tesla. We had to save money on taxes and buy a Tesla at the end of the year and I don't know how it happened. But that was totally the Lord.
So, God showed me so much through the story of sharing about James and the impact of that. It was almost like I transitioned from realizing that my contribution was so much more than being an educator of light, an educator of editing, an educator of photos, and posing, that the Lord wanted me to use more of me to change people's lives, more than just these courses. So, we went on to do other products and other yearlong programs where I had more of an opportunity to share my story, my life, and how it's integrated into my business.
Before, I think we were going down the path of being a money machine, and I don't think we realized that at the time. Another crazy thing, we had a large debt we wanted to pay off, and really before James's whole season, I thought, if I just paid that off, I will have so much peace in my life. So, because 2018 was such a big year, we paid it off. I immediately realized, that was such a lie. It doesn't matter. Peace doesn't come through a paid off bill. Peace is something that I had to fight for through losing a child, and it just opened my eyes. I just had a broader view of what God was trying to show me with life. I was very – I didn't even think I was, but I was stuck in a tunnel vision of business and life and purpose. So, yeah, I think it was holistic. Every part of my life was impacted by this child.
[00:21:11] JR: Yeah. Your bio says that, “James's story taught us not to hold back.” What do you mean by that? Is there a connection here between James's passing and your boldness, and appetite for risk and growth in the business? It feels weird to even articulate it like that. But what do you mean by that?
[00:21:30] KJ: That's great. It's so funny to hear you read through this, because I'm like, I think I wrote that three years ago, but it's still true.
[00:21:35] JR: When people read my bio to me, I'm like, “Oh, gosh.”
[00:21:37] KJ: I know. What did I say? No, but I do agree with that. It's still very true. One, the beauty of being able to share about James is that I can't get canceled for it. I didn't even worry about that in 2018 and it taught me a lot about, if the Lord is going to use something, you just use it and you don't filter everything and you don't refrain from sharing about how Jesus is the reason you survived a stillbirth. So, I was more bold in that regard, because I could be, and there was a freedom that came from, if you live through something that only 1% of women live through, you get to share your story, and no one's going to criticize it, because it's so tragic.
So, there was freedom to be bold in that, but also, we risked so – if I ever wrote a book one day, this would be a chapter. But in order to fully let God transform us through tragedy, we had to let ourselves truly love this baby. And that sounds – unless you've been there, I know it's hard to process that. But most people that are in a situation like this, you just want to band aid how bad it hurts. So, you don't let yourself – some people don't name their children. Some people do not do maternity photos. They don't want to see the baby on the ultrasound. They just want to get it done and survive and move on.
We fully let ourselves love him. Listen to his heartbeat at home with our little girl, took him on trips, took pictures, made an album of everything we did with him while he was still alive. We put ourselves in a position to risk. It is painful to love something you're going to lose. No human is going to choose that. But it's in choosing that and choosing to honor his life that allowed us to survive. I mean, we actually did thrive in the midst of a stillbirth and how many people can say that? So, he just taught us that the risk of loving something, but also having open hands with the Lord, there's no greater way to learn that than to do that with a child.
[00:23:34] JR: Yeah. You talked about this theme a couple times now of really sitting in pain, right?
[00:23:40] KJ: Yes.
[00:23:39] JR: How has that influenced your work at all? Have there been seasons in the business that have been painful that you've sat with and wrestled with, that have influenced the future of the business in positive ways?
[00:23:51] KJ: Oh, definitely. I mean, I feel I'm in one of those seasons right now. I know, there's a new season. I don't know what it is. It's so easy just to keep doing what I've always done. But I know God's calling me to something else. But I would say even personally, I mean, I work with majority are family members. So, out of my immediate family, the only two people that are not hired by my business are my brother-in-law and my brother. So, mom, dad, sister, husband, sister-in-law, we have salaries for my business.
And I think what I learned in a roundabout way from James's story is, we have such a healthy relationship at work because we work through hard stuff. There's no like, “Hey, you said this, and I'm going to let it bother me for three months and then it's going to blow up.” We deal with it and we talk through it. We are all a part of transformational life coaching with the same coach.
I think James's season just made me realize like I didn't – just life is fragile. It's short, and we had to sit in so much mess. It made me really realize there's such beauty in that. I'm going to have an argument, I have to apologize to my sister later, but If I have an argument with my sister, she's the CEO. We'll sit down in my office studio and we will hash it out, through the tools we've learned through coaching. We will hash it out and it might take two hours of tears and hashing out, miscommunication, judgments against each other, all the things. But we will do it, because we know if we let ourselves stay in that pain, the outcome is, we're sisters that can run a multimillion dollar business together, and still love each other and still want to hang out after work hours.
I don't think I've ever had an example in my life of the benefits or the purpose of allowing yourself to be in pain before James. That was the first time I saw, and it was such – I didn't really – well, I did have an option. I could have ignored and just tried to survive. I thought of that option. As soon as we got the results from his ultrasound, I'm like, “It’s okay, we'll try again for another baby.” But then God immediately showed me, that's not what I'm calling you to. I'm not calling you to forget about this baby and try to get through it and get him out and move on with your life. I'm calling you to sit in the trauma, even of this journey in your life, and I'm going to do beautiful things through it, even though you can't see it. So, it's hard to forget that happened and not apply it to other parts of your life.
[00:26:14] JR: Yeah, for sure. I think hashing out disagreements internally with your team with your family members is a really good example of how that translates. I think a lot of us in our workplaces try to avoid confrontation at all costs. You're leaning into it. Not in an aggressive, antagonistic way. But when there's an issue, dealing with the issue, knowing that God's going to create something more beautiful, because you dealt with the issue and dealt with the pain, right?
[00:26:38] KJ: Oh, yes. 100%. I mean, the more – I've been doing life coaching for six years now, and I am starting to forget because I've been in it so long. I'm starting to forget the way the normal world works.
[00:26:52] JR: Yeah, I understand that. You're like, it's water to you now. You're swimming in water. You don't notice it's there.
[00:26:57] KJ: Yeah. So, when I hear people say that there's a problem with an employee, with a coworker, with a peer in an industry, and their solution is to never address it. I'm like, “Oh, my gosh. I mean, you know what you're doing, right? This is going to blow up in your face.” So, yes. I get it. We have several of our good friends that are entrepreneurs, that coach actually with the same person, and we actually talk about like, we have a different perspective on the way that we live life and do relationships, because of what we're choosing constantly.
[00:27:30] JR: Yeah. Proverbs 27 says, “Open rebuke is better than secret love.” We're called to rebuke and to confront things. How do you do that internally with your team in a Christ honoring way? How does confrontation look differently because you're a follower of Christ?
[00:27:46] KJ: To answer that, in a very condensed way would be, I have learned that I've got to do the work in my backyard first before going to anyone else. So, I've got to focus on my contribution before I go to anyone else. And a lot of times, my contribution is rooted in my stress. Am I really stressed with the team because a sales page hasn't been updated? No, I'm stressed because I told myself earlier in the day, “Katelyn, get yourself together. You are not organized this year.” And then I see proof of that, belief that I told myself to believe about myself, prove in a sales page, blame it on someone else. And then say with a tense voice to an employee. “I just don't know why this isn’t updated yet.”
[00:28:29] JR: It's frustrating yourself.
[00:28:30] KJ: Yes, it was – so much of our conflict is rooted in personal – so if I do that personal work, the less and less we actually have confrontation with other people. And then when we do the work of figuring out what did I contribute, then you're approaching that person saying, “I'm experiencing you this way, it doesn't mean you are this way. I'm experiencing you this way and I realize this is what I've done to contribute to this problem. And I'd love to talk about it.” And that is a lot different than – you hear the word confrontation and it sounds like you come out guns blazing. That doesn't work well for anybody.
So really, focusing on me, which is hard, because we all love to be victims of something. We get a lot out of that. So, it's very hard to step back and take victory over, “No, I chose this. I did this, I let my mind go here, and it resulted in tension with a coworker, and I'm going to own that with this person.” I am not perfect at that, especially when I'm pregnant. It's like, I am stressed and tensed quite often. But I go back to that as a default, and I think that's why we can be in business together and not kill each other. Honestly.
[00:29:38] JR: Yeah. That's such a Christ like trait. I would argue that if there's one primary trait of Christ, it’s his humility. And to approach confrontation first by cleaning up my own backyard. That takes great humility with the power of the spirit to do, right?
[00:29:51] KJ: Yes.
[00:29:52] JR: We've talked about how you approach confrontation and conflict resolution differently. You mentioned working with your family. I think that's different, distinct. We talked about how you’ve been open about pain. What else would be different about your business if you weren't a follower of Jesus? I know it's a really hard question. It's hard to even imagine that.
[00:30:10] KJ: It is.
[00:30:11] JR: What else do you think makes the business distinct because your apprenticeship to Christ?
[00:30:14] KJ: It's such a big question. The only thing I have to compare it to are seasons, where I was seeking such a worldly affirmation and didn't even realize it. Because yes, I can say that I love the Lord and I'm walking with Jesus, and I want my business to be a reflection of him. But I'm also human. So, there's been seasons where I have focused on the wrong things, and I have tried to pursue the wrong things.
I went to speak at this conference, back in probably 2014. And I remember showing up and my name was like, my picture was life size in the MGM Grand Lobby at Vegas. I just like, “I've made it. I have made it.” And then I came out of my seminar that I did for a couple hundred people, wasn't even that big of a conference. And they were packing up the conference lobby area and they were taking the poster where my face in my photo was life size, and literally just bawling it up. I thought, I just had this realization, “Oh, my gosh, my face and my photo, that I just put so much identity into, and worth into, is literally going to a Las Vegas landfill. It's going to go to the dump.” That really was a turning point for me, where I just realized, I have been at the top in a lot of ways. I've been able to be sought out to speak and teach in an industry where there's only a few great leaders and I realized, ultimately, my purpose, strip it all away. Ultimately, that is not what I'm after.
So, I think if I didn't have Jesus to pull me, rein me back in, I think I would just consistently be seeking that feeling of walking into the lobby seeing my face larger than life. And I wonder if I couldn't see my face larger than life enough, or if I couldn't see a billboard, if I couldn't see awards, what would happen to me if I lost all of that? And what would happen to me if I wasn't a six-figure photographer at 25 years old? What if I was more of an average photographer? Would I be satisfied with that?
I think it goes back to who am I created to be? And how am I fulfilling that with the gifts that I was given by the Lord? And when I think about it as a whole, I think ultimately, if I'm on that trajectory, to serve him, to love him with my gifts, I can't fail in that. But every time I get off that wavelength, and I start thinking about like, “Oh, gosh, Instagram.” I don't even know how to play that game the right way anymore. All it takes is one or two scrolls of comparison and my joy has been stolen, my attitude is nasty. I'm not a friendly person to work with. My demeanor changes. And that is what the majority of the world is living like.
I find myself in that so often I got to pull myself back out. Jesus is the only way I'm pulling myself out. So, if I didn't have him, I don't know what would pull me out. I don't know what would get me back on track. I think I would be defining so much of, am I successful based off of numbers, algorithms, engagement? And that is, quite honestly, in 2022, it’s a very empty way to live your life.
[00:33:29] JR: How do you manage the tension between knowing that Christ alone gives you your worth? He gives you the applause for your work before you step on the stage. And living in this world where got to be on Instagram. You got to be scrolling through. I mean, I don't. But I’m assuming you do for your business. How do you remind yourself of your worth in Christ when you're swimming in these deep oceans of content, where everyone tells you your worth, what your balance sheet says your worth?
[00:33:59] KJ: Oh, gosh. I mean, honestly, if you'd asked me a few years ago, I probably would have said, “Well, here's your content strategy. Here's how you get your team to do stuff. And then you do this part.” But honestly, in this season of my life, I have really come to terms with, I post and I share about our life, about what God's teaching me, about our business offerings, about content that we put on YouTube. Some of those things you have to do, and I could get a team member to do it if I don't feel like it. But other things, I really default back to that season of when we were walking through the James story of, “Do I feel caught – does this bring me joy to share this? Why am I sharing this?”
And I have found that is the only way for me to show up on social media. If I feel pressured, and maybe it's because I'm 35. I'm not the 20-year-old back in college that I’d jump – you tell me to jump, I’d say, “How high?” I would follow all the rules. And now I'm just realizing, yes, I've got to stay current, I've got to stay present. But if I can't stay current and present through being genuinely and authentically who I am, and sharing what I feel God has for me to share in the season in my life, then I don't want any part of that. Because it's so fake and it's so draining, and it's –
So, I've really let myself go. I've let myself go. I do feel like that sometimes. I've let myself go the expectation that the world has for people who are going to thrive on Instagram, and it's fascinating because no one would say that it's going to hit the algorithms to share about a dying child. But what I learned from that season was that people want real and people want authentic, and people love the beauty of curation and perfected feeds and all these things, especially in the creative world, in the photo world. But what people are drawn to us for is authenticity. That is what I feel like God's called me to. So, the more that I get clear on what God is calling me to specifically, the more I'm even clearer on what I share on social media,
[00:35:57] JR: How do you get clear on that, of what God's calling you to specifically? What does that look like for you personally?
[00:36:02] KJ: Jordan, your questions are so good. They're so good. They're just so deep at the same time.
Okay, first of all, I don't think there is one realization of this is it for me, the rest of my life. I think it's a journey. And I think that it requires a constant level of checking in and going back to surrender. For me, I wanted to send out a poll last week to some of our veteran students and just say, “What do you look for from me personally? And what do you look for from me professionally?” I just realized, I need to be doing the same thing with the Lord. I need to be going to him and saying, “What do you want from me in this business professionally? And what do you want from me personally?” If I can make that a part of my normal rhythm, I feel like God will bless that and honor that.
Also, I know what it feels like to not be in the right place. I've created content. I've pursued partnerships. I've done things in my business where I feel like people talk about, “Are you in alignment?” And I have weird feelings about that word. But in alignment with the Lord. I'm totally okay with that. And I think I very clearly know when I'm not. I just recently, and I probably won't go into too many details, because it's still in the works. But I mean, I made a $30,000 mistake – it's not a mistake. It was all on me. I tried to pursue something that I wasn't ready for. And I sat down at our team retreat and at the very end, I mean, I waited until we were packing up our bags. I said, “Guys, I think I need to pull the plug on this part of our business.” And I've said it and blurted out, because in my soul and in my spirit, I knew it wasn't right. I was forcing something that wasn't what God was calling me to.
So, is it a cop out to say that the Holy Spirit will let you know? I don't think so. But it took me a – it was a three-month process of me constantly having this gut feeling. “This probably isn't the right time, but let's just go for it. Oh, it's probably not the right fit, but I’ll make it fit.” And then at the end of a three-month period, I just ended it all. I realize now like that was a Holy Spirit nudge for three months that I did not pay attention to.
So, when it comes to what am I called to and what does God want from me as a business owner, I am constantly in a state of trying to be better about hearing his voice. And if I don't do that check in, like what do you want from me professionally? What do you want from me personally? And constantly asking him that, I'm probably going to have a lot more mistakes like what I had this past fall. Which I got to get better at that, because my team's going to fire me if I keep having mistakes that are that expensive.
[00:38:40] JR: No, and I get how that looks like. That can look like a cop out to some people. But man, it is way costlier to ignore the Spirit's promptings.
[00:38:50] KJ: Sure, it is.
[00:38:50] JR: And only later on make that call. It's like, it's the sunk cost bias that keeps us, I think, a lot of times from obeying the Spirit’s leading.
[00:38:59] KJ: Exactly. Oh, I 100% agree. If someone's listening to this, and I don't know what it means to listen to Holy Spirit. I would say, you might not understand that feeling. But there is also a feeling of, I'm not in the right place. This is not a good fit. This feels forced. It feels tensed. And it's not the tensed and the forced feeling that makes you – that catapults you into a new season of growth. That's what my excuse was with this. Once I started taking it to the Lord, that's when I started to see. No, Katelyn, you're not trying to just break through a new level of business. You're trying to do something you're not supposed to be doing right now. So yeah, definitely. You're 100% correct. It's a hard thing to explain. But once you've been through it, and this has happened to me multiple times. So, I'm probably a good six figures into mistakes in my business.
[00:39:47] JR: Six figures worth of mistakes and not listening to the Holy Spirit's leading.
[00:39:51] KJ: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:39:52] JR: I love it. Katelyn, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?
[00:40:01] KJ: That's such a good question. I would say first of all, in my season of life, I have a five-year-old, a two-year-old. I had to think about this. Five-year-old, two-year-old – wait, no. I have a five-year-old. Oh, my gosh. I have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a two-year-old and I'm about to have a baby. My books in my life have been about potty training and parenting toddlers.
[00:40:22] JR: Oh, same here.
[00:40:24] KJ: But I will say this, the Find Your People, Jennie Allen's book. I love that book, because she just so openly talks to what so many women crave, especially post pandemic. I love that book just because it's a way for people to find connection in community. And I think that that is what most people are just so desperate for.
[00:40:46] JR: Yeah, it’s a good answer.
[00:40:47] KJ: We just started a school for our kids, it’s entrepreneurial based, and we have these 12 families and I cannot believe the connection we formed with the moms of all these kids. I'm realizing, I should gift – I should have thought about this for Christmas. But that would been a great book to gift all of them. So yes, that is a good recommendation. At least for the women listeners.
[00:41:06] JR: It's a good answer. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work?
[00:41:13] KJ: Gosh, that is a good hit. Has Shay Cochrane been on here?
[00:41:15] JR: A long, long time ago. I love Shay.
[00:41:19] KJ: Oh, gosh. Yes. We have been doing some Voxer messages back and forth. And in this season of her life, in her business, in her growth, and being a mom, she's a fascinating person to talk to. And I just listened to her on another podcast and I was like, “She needs a podcast of her own.”
[00:41:36] JR: Yeah. We Zoomed a couple of weeks ago and caught up. But we haven't caught up publicly. That's a great – I like that answer a lot. Katelyn, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians who want to do great work for the glory of God and the good of others. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?
[00:41:51] KJ: I think I would leave them with the encouragement that God is constantly in the role of renewing you and reworking you and giving you new vision. As I'm in a season, in my own business, of trying to figure out what does he want from me, I'm constantly reminded that a lot of the beauty of what's going to come from this season is just in the mere goodness of God that He has a plan. He has a purpose. And we weren't given all these gifts just simply to feel stuck. That He's going to show us exactly what He has in store for you.
So, enjoy the process of that. That's what I'm calling myself to do. It's what I'm trying to remind myself every day, that the process of discovering God calling you to something so uniquely and specifically for you and your life, that the process is a part of the purpose.
[00:42:39] JR: That's good. That's really good. Katelyn, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of those who serve in your business. Thank you for being so transparent about your pain and allowing God to use it for his greater glory.
Guys, you can learn more about Katelyn and her business at katelynjames.com. Of course, we'll have that link in the show notes. Katelyn, thanks again for joining us.
[00:43:00] KJ: Thank you for having me.
[OUTRO]
[00:43:03] JR: Hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians podcast, do me a favor and go leave a rating of the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you listen to the show. Thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
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