How to think about “sowing eternity into the world”
The dangers of feeling entitled to a calling, how to think “Who Not How” in prayers for your work, and a simple way of thinking about “sowing eternity into the world.”
Links Mentioned:
[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey friend, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as retail managers, warehouse workers, and anthropologists? That’s the question we explore every week and today, I’m posing it to Justin Mathews, an executive at PwC, the global tax audit and consulting firm.
Justin and I recently sat down and had a phenomenal conversation about the dangers of feeling entitled to a calling and purpose in your work. We talked about how to think who not how in prayers for your work, and Justin shared this beautiful and simple way of thinking about how to sow eternity into the world through your vocation. Trust me, this is about to become one of your favorite episodes of the Mere Christians Podcast. Do not miss this conversation with my new friend, Justin Mathews.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:16.1] JR: Justin Mathews, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:18.8] JM: Hey, Jordan, happy to be here.
[0:01:20.4] JR: Long-time listener, first-time caller. I always love to ask, any favorite episodes of the show?
[0:01:26.1] JM: Jenna Barrett’s episode, from a couple of weeks ago was incredible. I think that might have bumped its way up. I think maybe Skye would have been before her but I think Jenna did it for me.
[0:01:35.8] JR: That’s a good list. Jenna Barrett and Skye Jethani. I like that, I like that a lot. Hey, a lot of people know PwC but a lot of people don’t. So, let’s just do some setting of the table here. For those who don’t know, what is PwC, this firm that you work for?
[0:01:49.1] JM: Yeah. So, PwC, some people notice, Price Waterhouse Cooper, if you’re from maybe the generation before me, maybe Coopers or Price Waterhouse but PwC is a professional services firm, with three kinds of distinct to lines of service. So, one is audit, which is what a lot of people know PwC for, your traditional kind of accounting services. The other is tax. So, really, anything that has to do with how companies report on taxes and pay their taxes and ways to really optimize that.
And then, the last is the bit that I’m involved in, which is called advisory, which deals with our consulting, deals, and risk practices, and yeah, Jordan, I think this is a great time to mention that while I’m so proud to work for PwC, everything that I share today is definitely my own thoughts and beliefs and not in any way speaking on behalf of the firm.
[0:02:36.0] JR: And now, the PwC lawyers can rest easy.
[0:02:40.4] JM: Now I can send this to people at work and not get worried.
[0:02:42.3] JR: We’re good. That’s exactly right. No, I always love it when people issue that disclaimer. All right, tell us more about your role within PwC, you’re on the management consultant side, what are you focused on specifically?
[0:02:52.6] JM: Yeah. So, I grew up doing consulting, and finance transformation was kind of my original practice, so helping companies solve issues that dealt with cash flow and working capital and really, anything that the CFO dealt with. Most recently, I did strategy consulting. So, helping companies with the growth strategy, operation strategy, really anything that had to do with kind of the top line of how your company operates and how they can do it better.
But now, I actually don’t do consulting anymore. I serve our consulting business. So, I work for our global advisory leaders to really help them execute upon their strategic objectives. So, the group that leads our kind of global advisory businesses, so that consulting deals and risk, and anything that they need and kind of the execution of who we want to be as a firm.
[0:03:34.7] JR: I love it. All right. Let’s backtrack in your story a little bit because I read this terrific LinkedIn article. Dude, you're a great writer. You need to be publishing more of these, okay? No, but I read this really good LinkedIn article from you. I think you published it in 2023 and you were describing a sort of – I don't know if this is too strong a word, but a quarter-life crisis if you will, that you had years ago.
You’re living in New York City, you had a great job, and yet, you were discontent. I think a lot of our listeners have felt that way at some point before. So, tell our listeners how you got to the root of that discontent.
[0:04:11.5] JM: Yeah, definitely. I met a guy this weekend who is actually is the guy who runs the Faith & Work Fellowship for Redeemer.
[0:04:18.7] JR: Yeah, is it Paul Sohn?
[0:04:20.7] JM: That’s right, yeah.
[0:04:21.4] JR: I love Paul. Paul’s a good friend.
[0:04:22.7] JM: I don't know if you’ve read his book.
[0:04:24.4] JR: Quarter Life Calling.
[0:04:24.9] JM: Quarter Life Calling. Yeah. I was talking about that this weekend and I was like, “Wow, that’s exactly what happened to me.” So, maybe that’s a better way to phrase it, it was my quarter-life calling but yeah. You know, I’ve been doing consulting for enough time at that point to realize that I was experiencing a bit of – like, this – unfulfillment in the work. Like, I was getting done.
I remember so vividly, it was like during COVID times, I was working from home, and I get done with work and I kind of like closed the laptop and go to walk around my block in New York and just, have this feeling of like, “Gosh, there’s got to be something more. Like, what am I missing here?” So, that really started a big process of like, God was also doing a lot with me from a faith perspective of really pulling me close to Him.
And I kind of came to the conclusion that like, if I really do believe that I’m going to spend eternity with God in heaven, and that, like, this 80-year life or however long we’re on earth is but a drop in the bucket compared to that. Then, I better start like, really thinking seriously about how I want to walk out that relationship here and now, which led me into this idea of like, faith and work integration.
Like, how do I really integrate my faith in my work? And that took a lot of different, kind of discernment directions but ultimately, it led to me kind of making a list of like, “What are those things that I’m good at, what are the things that like, God’s kind of naturally gifted me at doing?” What are those things that I’m passionate about doing, and then where’s the opportunity in the world?”
And that led to multiple years of kind of like, three different jobs in three different years, and ultimately landing now, at a job that I’ve been at in, for a couple of months now but really feels aligned with what God created me to do, which is a really cool thing to be able to say. So, happy to dig into any kind of piece of that journey.
[0:06:02.8] JR: No, it’s good, it’s good, and it’s been a bunch of different jobs but it’s all been within the PwC universe, which I think is interesting and today, your LinkedIn bio starts with this. You say, “My purpose is to work for the flourishing of the world through redemptive participation.” I want to talk about what that looks like at PwC in a minute but first, what do you mean by that term redemptive participation? I think I get it but I want to make sure.
[0:06:27.0] JM: Yeah, you know, as you articulate it well in The Sacredness of Secular Work and Tim Keller writes about this a lot in Every Good Endeavor and a ton of other things, for me, like, work is such a gift to be able to join in with what God’s already trying to do, and you do a great job of laying out the broader narrative of the Bible. In other words, not just, “I believe in Jesus therefore, I’m saved.”
It’s, “I believe in Jesus, therefore I’m saved, and also, I get to now join Him in the work that He’s doing to redeem this fallen world and make it the way it was really was always supposed to be, in perfect harmony between people and God and people and each other, and people and creation.” So, I see work now as a way to join in in what He’s already doing, which is bringing redemption to the world.
I always think about it in terms of like, sowing eternity into the world like, it’s kind of mind-blowing when you think about when you believe in Jesus, you accept him as your savior, you’re saved, you receive the Holy Spirit, which means you receive the eternal God of the universe, into your finite human body and literally are living in the reality of eternity already. So then, the question becomes, “Well then, how do I bring that reality to kind of all of the different activities and meetings and things that I’m doing today?”
And I think it may be a simple way to look at that, which obviously, that could go as complex as you want it to go but a simple way is just thinking about the fruits of the spirit. Like, any time I love a coworker, anytime I bring peace to an anxious situation, anytime I bring goodness to a position of – where there’s maybe evil, I’m sowing eternity in a very tangible way into the world. So, that’s how I kind of view, kind of my little role in bringing in about the redemption of the world.
[0:08:09.3] JR: Yeah, that’s really, really good. It’s really good. Yeah, I think a lot of times, we limit our view of redemption to just people and that’s certainly a big piece of the story but I think when you look at the total biblical narrative, it’s clear that individual human beings are redeemed so that we might sow eternity into the cosmos, which yes, includes other people but also includes the way that culture operates and flourishes, right?
So, we talk a little bit about those nonhuman acts of redemptive participation beyond sowing the fruits of the spirit amongst your coworkers in an effort to “save souls.” What eternal value is there in simply, working to make this firm called PwC look a little bit more like the kingdom of God?
[0:09:03.2] JM: Yeah. You know, most recently, I went through this courier transition where I kind of hung up the consulting boot so to speak for good, and one of the reasons was I did this kind of week in the way with the Lord. Him and me, kind of alone in a cabin in Hudson Valley, and I asked Him like, “What is my purpose? Like, I look at this big world, I’m like, You want me to – You have good work setup before me like Ephesians says.”
“So, what am I supposed to be doing? Because I know work is intrinsically good, like, I know that the things that I do day to day, yeah, there’s a spiritual component but there’s also a physical reality of doing good. Like, what do you want me to do?” And I heard Him speak so clearly that like, what I’m supposed to be spending my time and doing is bringing companies around an important “Why” Like, an important purpose.
And then, helping them create like, tactical strategies to execute upon that “Why.” So, when I relate that then to PwC, like our purpose is to build trust and society and solve important problems. I mean, if that’s not a redemptive purpose, I don't know what is, and so it’s not about changing the DNA of PwC, it’s about rallying our people around what we already say is the reason why we exist, to build trust in society and solve important problems.
So, for me, anytime I set our consultants or our accountants, or anybody up, to be able to deliver our missions. So, sow entrust where there’s currently no trust, solve a problem where there’s currently a problem. Then, I’m contributing in a little way to the work that God wants to do of just making this world the way it was always supposed to be without problems, and without lack of trust.
[0:10:35.8] JR: Yeah. It’s really good, and so the redemptive participation is, “Hey, sometimes, we can get off base of that “Why.” My job is to help bring us back to the “Why.”
[0:10:43.3] JM: Absolutely.
[0:10:43.6] JR: Yeah, that’s good. You told me you were in a different role in 2023 and in our pre-interview, you shared a little bit about that year, which sounded brutal, right? And the Lord really using your work in some specific circumstances within the work to sanctify you, specifically, to use your words by cultivating your trust and obedience to Him. Tell our listeners what was going on last year.
[0:11:08.1] JM: Yeah. So, I – you know, in this journey of kind of trying to – I look at it more as like, instead of finding my calling, which is totally the truth but it’s more of aligning myself with the will of God and doing that, there was kind of steps to get here and one of the steps was accepting a job that, at the time, you know, I would have articulated like, “Man, this is my calling.” Like, to be a strategy consultant and like, help these companies, like, rally behind their missions and like, really do good.
So, I was entering it into the season of career with the expectation that I had found my calling and that 40 years from now, I was going to retiring from PwC as a partner in this strategy practice but then ultimately, what happened as I got in and the state of the world of that type of work was really misaligned with my view of how I think work should be. So, there was a lot of overwork, there is a lot of kind of meeting client demands that weren’t even necessarily demands that we should be meeting.
It’s kind of like, going above and beyond but in ways that aren’t actually beneficial to the client, in ways that just kind of are self-serving to make us look good, and then in that, there was a lot of kind of disrespect of younger people and there was just, ultimately, like a pretty unhealthy culture in this specific team I found myself in, and it came to this moment where there was a worship night on a weeknight and I let the team know.
Like, “Hey, guys, like, at eight PM tonight, I need to go to this thing.” And I went to this worship night and you know, something hit the fan and we really needed to get like an update to the client on something. So, in the middle of this worship night, I’m getting pings from my boss that was saying like, “Hey, we really need to get this done, we really need to get this done.” And there is just this absolute discomfort.
Like, almost like anger in me that said like, “All I want to do is sit in the presence of God and worship Him, and I can’t even do it because this job has crept in everywhere.” So, I just kind of hit my knees and I was like, “God, this felt like your calling, like you opened every door to get here, this seems aligned with what You built me to do, like, what’s going on?” And He said like, as clearly as I’ve ever heard him speak to me, “This is your calling, this is what I’ve called you to in this season and your kind of job, and what I’m asking you to walk out is obedience and perseverance.”
And it was really like a little mini garden of Gethsemane moment where Jesus is like, in the garden, He’s on his knees and He’s bleeding, He’s sweating blood because He’s in so much agony because He knows He’s about to go to the cross and He says, “God, like, take this cup, Father, take this cup.” And the Father says, “No.” Like, “Accept the cup.” And Jesus said, “I will accept the cup, and may not my will be done but Your will.”
And then He walks out of the garden with this like courage and this – this strength of will and this submission to the Father that ultimately, allowed Him to walk out what is the most important thing that anybody’s ever done in the history of the world. So, for me, it was like a little taste of that where it was like, “Father, like, not my will, but Your will.” And that really empowered me to then walk out the rest of the year in a way that was glorifying to Him and hopefully had somewhat of an impact.
But I do think that the biggest fruit of that season was I learned how to accept the will of the Father, whether I liked it or not, and then walk it out in intimacy with the Father, which was I think, ultimately, what He wanted to teach me. You know, it’s like Psalm 23 says, like, “Although I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil for You are with me.” And I really got to understand why sometimes He doesn’t remove us from the dark valley but keeps us there so that we invite Him into it and He’s able to walk through it with us because that’s really where, you know, the intimacy and the relationship is formed.
[0:14:37.5] JR: Yeah, it’s – this is really good, and I kind of love that you didn’t share whether you quit that job or not. I mean, we know eventually you transition to a different role but it’s kind of not the point. Like, the point was God was using this experience in this valley for you professionally to cultivate intimacy with Him. That was the point, right?
[0:15:00.4] JM: Yeah, yeah, and it’s actually interesting because the way it ended was I was on a project for two weeks, ended up working, so of the 15 days I was on the project, I worked 15 days straight. A couple of all-nighters and then at the end of it, you know, I wasn’t moving fast enough for this manager, said they rolled me off the project, and – which felt like a little bit like deliverance at the moment.
I was like, “Thank you God for bringing me out of this moment.” But then, after meeting with my partner, he let me know that that was actually enough to get me kind of like, fired at the end of the year. So, I’ve been at the firm for five years and had really high merits the whole time but then that one two-week thing kind of gotten me kind of pulled from the firm and that was such a cool moment to get to walk through because after these months and months and months of walking this obedience to the Lord, that kind of pinnacle moment happened.
Where had I not been in that kind of posture of obedience or submission, that might have crushed me, like that might have ruined my – like, who – what I thought my identity was but instead, there was like this overwhelming peace in it, and then that ultimately is what, you know, led to me go to Hudson Valley like I mentioned earlier, God’s speaking purpose and then, ultimately, He made a promise.
He said that “This will be your last consulting project.” I was on another project for eight weeks, and He said, “But you’re not to go looking for a job, I’m going to bring a job to you.” And then on the eighth week of that project, my old boss called me, asked me to come back to the team, and then, that led to the position I’m in now. So, it really was just such a testament to God’s steadfast love and faithfulness to say, “My son, be obedient to Me in this season.”
“Let me teach you how to trust Me and how to walk with Me, and then just watch what I’ll do on the other side of this. Like, don’t take control, let Me have control and then I promise you, I’ve got something better planned for you.”
[0:16:39.7] JR: So, you hear the Lord say, “There’s something else coming at the end of this eight-week project.” But you get to week seven and three days, and you still haven’t heard anything, there’s still nothing. What are you thinking in that moment? How do you remain faithful to what you believe the call of God was on your life then?
[0:16:56.2] JM: Oh, yeah. You know, I would love to have been like David and say like, my heart is steadfast but ultimately, Jordan, I got so squirmy. I was looking on LinkedIn, like you know, a recruiter had reached out. I’m like, “Oh, well, maybe if I just like, you know, talk to this recruiter, like they reached out to me.” And then, ultimately, like in God’s grace, everything. It was like brick wall after brick wall, and they kind of brought me to that eighth week and you know, at this point, you got staffers reaching out to you, kind of setting up the next project.
And I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is going to happen?” But then, when I talked to my old boss, I was like, “Oh my gosh, like, it’s actually happening.” And it’s funny too because for me I was thinking like, giant career pivot away from the firm and into like, startup land but what He had for me was so different, and frankly like – and interestingly like, even from a worldly perspective, like, bigger platform or opportunity to carry out His purpose.
So, it’s just so cool that in the end, if we let Him take control, He really does have better plans than what our little minds can imagine. So, I definitely got a little squirmy there but thankfully, He’s – He is still able to operate even when we try to kind of navigate outside of our obedience to Him.
[0:18:00.7] JR: I was thinking about this reading the Exodus story for the umpteenth time the other day. I’m like, “The Israelites would have never thought to pray for God to open up the Red Sea.” Like, it would have never crossed their minds because we are so small, and so limited in what we think is possible, right? And so, yeah man, it makes me, I don't know, just far more reliant on the Lord of my prayers.
Like, “Lord, I think this is what I want but I know that You see a billion alternate realities that I can’t, and so I’m just putting my trust in You.” It sounds like that’s kind of what happened with your job search, that was a little microcosm of that, right?
[0:18:43.0] JM: Yeah, I know, it really was. I mean – and that’s such a beautiful truth and it really should. In his book on prayer, Tim Keller talks about like, how we should pray, and the first thing he always recommends is that you always begin just as the “Our Father” leaves that, right? Jesus is the one who really taught this, with recognizing God and His power and His almightiness and the fact that He is the God of gods and Lord of lords, the Creator of heaven and the earth, the beginning and the end.
And then, from there, you thank Him for that reality, and then from there, then you start asking things because man if we don’t remind ourselves that yeah, we are – we have an idea of where we want to go, but in reality, He’s in control, and that’s a good thing. Like, that is a blessing that we’re not the ones with the wheel. So, I love that vision of the Israelites is not even thinking that the Red Sea opening to them would be an option, and God having a better plan is such a perfect image of that.
[0:19:34.5] JR: Did you read the book Who Not How, by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy?
[0:19:38.3] JM: No.
[0:19:38.6] JR: Okay. So, you kind of get the gist from the title, right? It’s written for business leaders, and the concept is, hey, when entrepreneurs or executives are swamped, they try to answer the “How” question. How do I get unswamped, how do I solve this from whatever? When in reality, what we should be asking is “Who.” “Who can I hire that already has the expertise to solve that problem?”
But I think, for us as mere Christians, there’s an even higher level, “Who not how” application, right? Like, when we are jobless, when we can’t see a way out of this situation with an oppressive boss, I think man, you and I, I know I am so tempted to figure out, “How can I solve the problem, how can I solve the problem?” No. Who can solve the problem? The Lord is the only one who can solve these problems.
So, I think, man, I’m preaching to myself here first and foremost, man, but like, that’s a good word for my prayer life. Not praying about the how, not even praying about the what but just spending more time basking in the presence of the “Who” and reminding myself of His awe and power, that will give me peace, regardless of what the “What” or the “How” is, amen?
[0:20:51.3] JM: Amen, and Jordan, I think, that is – the more I like walk in this reality of The Sacredness of the Secular Work or bringing your faith into your work like however people want to phrase it, I think oftentimes, when you get an image of this, the temptation is like, “Got to find my calling, got to do my work, got to go glorify God, got to be a master of something that He knows.”
Like, but what I’m realizing more and more is that the point of finding like the good works that he set up before you or finding your calling isn’t even about the work. It’s about that on the other side of finding that calling, you have alignment with His will and an alignment with His will, you get to experience His presence in a way that you could never experience before, and so, ultimately, like, even all these amazing reality and theology of like work.
And the goodness of work and why God has us doing good works, it’s all on to the purpose of relationship of getting to walk out an entire lifetime with a Father who loves you, a Savior who saves you, and a Holy Spirit that’s ever-present, and I love that because like, in Psalm 23, if you go back there, like, “You walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you fear no evil.” But then it ends with, “Surely Your goodness and love will follow me, all the days of my life, and I will dwell on the house of the Lord forever.”
It’s like, man, that has been the joy of this season is that, yeah, like, I really do feel aligned with my calling and every day, Tim Keller always says like, “Roses and thorns brighten works.” So, there are bad days but every day, I really feel like it’s a privilege to get to do my job but on the other side of that has been an experience of God’s presence that I had never experienced before, and I think that is really the reason behind all of this, it’s not the “How” it’s the “Who.”
It’s not the “What” it’s the “Who” it’s not the "Why" it’s the “Who.” Like, it’s always back to God just wants to know you and wants to be with you and wants you to be with them every single day of every single you know, every single moment of your life. So, I love that point you made and it really does speak to the broader, kind of lesson I’ve learned in the season, which is it really just is about the presence of God.
[0:22:55.7] JR: Yeah. And it’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about this topic, right? I think, many – nope, I’ll say most, I think that’s true, most believers walk through the third of their lives they spend working with no understanding that God wants to be with them in that work. That God cares about the substance of what’s happening within that work, and if I don’t believe that the work I spend, 40, 50, 60 hours a week doing matters to Him, there’s no way I’m going to feel His pleasure as I’m doing it.
There’s no way I’m going to feel His presence as I’m doing it but if I do, that’s a gamechanger, that’s a gamechanger. By the way, and forgive me if you were the one who pointed this out. I read this week, it may have been reading your blog post, I can’t remember but somebody pointed out to me that the structure of Psalm 23 is fascinating. So, in verses one through three, David is talking to the Lord in the third person.
“The Lord is my Shepherd, He makes me lie down.” And then in verse four he says, “Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil for You are with me.” It gets personal, right? It’s no longer the Lord that’s abstract idea, what’s interesting to me is that it’s in the darkest valley.
[0:24:15.7] JM: Wow.
[0:24:16.5] JR: That that relationship becomes personal. Was it you who pointed this out?
[0:24:20.6] JM: No, but that is absolutely beautiful because I’ve experienced this.
[0:24:26.3] JR: That you mean – that’s exactly what you were just talking about. I love it so much, man, the Lord just inception style put that in my head for such a time as this podcast episode. Hey, go back, let’s go back in time one more time. I want to go back to the worship service. I’ve been there, I remember when my first company, we’re in client service, and I remember before I took digital sabbath or whatever, I would be in church or just be with my family and my wife at the time and she’s still my wife.
We didn’t have kids, that’s what I mean, and being pinged by clients nonstop and feeling the pressure that the burden of that and you’re in that moment and when you told the story in the pre-interview, I’m going to quote you exactly. You said you heard the Lord saying to you, “This is My mission field, I don’t know why you thought My mission field was going to be easy.” And I love that perspective.
And I want you to talk more of it because man, I think many Christians assume that if our work is difficult, it must not be where God wants us and I think if we’re following Jesus, I actually think the opposite is more likely true, right?
[0:25:30.0] JM: Yeah. No, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, another way but to me and that’s easy was just, just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s bad and I was like, “Wow, what a simple but profound truth.” Like, if you think about Jesus and His mission, or if you think about the apostles taking forth the gospel, or if you think about like the majority of early Christians, most of them are martyr.
Like, most of the time in those days a call to follow Jesus was a call to not just spiritual death of dying to yourself but a physical death and being brutally murdered and I think about that in the context of like this kind of American dream world that we live in where life is so comfortable that we expect that in following the Lord, our life just becomes more comfortable. It’s like a manifestation of the American dream.
But in reality, it’s supposed to demand something from you, like it’s supposed to – like you’re supposed to have to sell everything to buy the pearl of great price. You’re supposed to have to give of yourself for the sake of Jesus. So, I do think that’s an important thing for people to understand like in that season or like in that specific moment in the worship service, it wasn’t the fact that my job was demanding a lot from me.
It was the fact that there was no escape from it and there’s a whole obviously conversation about rest and work but I do think in general it’s okay for the work to be hard and that if anything, it’s actually good because it’s in the hardness of the work that you reached your point of like I guess the threshold of your independence and then move into dependence on God, which is ultimately, you know, that even goes back to what we were just saying, that then you get the relationship.
So, I do think we should almost not be surprised when things are hard if we’re really trying to follow the Lord but actually hope for it in some ways because if you think about like in Romans where Paul says not only that but we actually take joy in our suffering because in suffering, like I’m going to botch this quote but you know, it produces hope and then perseverance and then hope never fails, or however that verse goes.
It is so truthful and if we really want a life of intimacy with God and ultimately, getting to experience the gifts of heaven now to some extent, then we need suffering. It’s almost like a necessary factor. So, when we accept the call of God and we search out our calling in our vocation, we shouldn’t avoid trials. We shouldn’t avoid it being hard. If anything, it being hard is probably a sign that you’re headed along the right path to a certain extent.
Please do apply discernment to all of that but yeah, I think that’s an incredibly important factor of it, Jordan.
[0:28:10.9] JR: You know, I think that’s exactly right, and like I was thinking about this the other day. I think if you pulled American Christians on what their goals are for their life, they wouldn’t look that different from just Americans and Westerners in general. Like, I think our top goals tend to be retirement, retire early, recreation, renown in fame. Frankly, I think Christians, a lot of Christians’ goals although they would never say it this way is retreat from the world.
Like, I’m going to hunker down and avoid as much sin as I can. Jesus’s goal was to die and redeem, right? Like, it’s just in such dark contrast to the way that we think about our lives, and so man, we need to be redeeming our time but I also think we need to be redeeming our goals and objectives and what we’re chasing after and chasing after hard things because we have been given this gift of citizenship in the kingdom.
The Holy Spirit has been appointed to us not so we could keep it to ourselves as a selfish gift but so that we can so return to the end of the world as you said, and so redemption to the ends of the earth, amen?
[0:29:20.6] JM: Amen, and I just will add to that too, like the single verse that changed my life more than any other verse is Psalm 37:4, “Delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.” And what I realize and I feel like this is probably true for a lot of Christians and especially American Christians is the desires of our heart are so much bigger and more important to us than delighting in the Lord.
And if you’re anything like me, when I first heard that I didn’t even know what delight in the Lord looked like or felt like or was supposed to be like. So, I think getting the image of like actually delighting in the Lord and experiencing joy in His presence where there’s the fullness of joy and like actually building that relationship, that then empowers you to want to rearrange your desires. That actually changes your desires and then you –
It’s not – you don’t necessarily have to seek out hard things because hard things will come in this world but you approach those hard things from a different lane of saying, “Lord, take it all.” Like, whatever it takes you’re good enough and you’re worth it because I’ve experienced that delight, I’ve experienced that as Augustine said, like, “My heart is restless until it rests in You.” And now that I’ve experienced that rest, now that I’ve experienced that joy, now that I’ve experienced that delight, I’ll do whatever it takes to maintain that for the rest of my life.
And so, I think like if anybody is hearing this and like is maybe discouraged or like scared of hard times as I often am too, I think more than praying for anything else, it’s praying for the presence of God, praying to experience that delight, praying to experience that joy in His presence, and like really praying for that intimacy because man, once you get a vision for that or a feeling of that or you hear the Father, the Creator of the universe speaking to you, man, then you can really take on a lot.
[0:31:07.7] JR: Yeah, bro, that’s really good. Hey, you mentioned something else in that LinkedIn post I mentioned, which by the way, producers, we got to find a way to link this in the show notes but something else I want to follow up on you, you said quote –
[0:31:19.2] JM: Jordan, can I just say too, I started doing these articles after I read Master of One because I took a spiritual gift test a couple of years ago and one of the gifts that gave me or revealed was teaching and it really surprised me but I realized that actually teaching does give me a ton of joy both in the public speaking arena but also in the writing arena, and I was like, “Well, if I’m really going to like exercise this gift, then a really good way for me to begin becoming a master of this craft is by writing, is by actually doing it.”
So, I just started doing that and I realized I have such a limited audience and it’s kind of like, that’s okay because it’s not about the audience, it’s about the craft and getting better at that. So anyway, I’d give you some props for that because it was after reading Master of One that I started doing that.
[0:32:02.5] JR: Well, hey, pro tip, enjoy the fact that nobody read your stuff although that might change after that episode. Man, once people start reading, you got to hold the bat back a little bit. You said in one of those articles quote, “I’m no longer doing things to perform well for my bosses.” And here’s the part I loved, “With a thin veil of altruism articulated as serving my clients. Now, there’s a deep sense that my work matters.”
So, two reasons why I want to follow up on this. First, I think you played your hand as a fan of Taylor Swift’s Antihero with this line, no?
[0:32:37.5] JM: Not on purpose but honestly, I am such a fan of Bobby Creptine.
[0:32:41.5] JR: Oh my gosh, I love that it crept in, come on, “Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism like some kind of congressman?” Gosh, I noticed you, there you go, even if you can’t notice it. All right, here’s the real reason why I wanted to follow up though, you hit on, man, I think how insanely easy it is to thinly veil idolatry of our work in Christian platitudes, right? Like, “Oh, like I’m doing the work of the Lord and so it’s okay that I work 90 hours a week and never rest,” right? Have you struggled with this personally?
[0:33:16.5] JM: Oh yeah, absolutely. For me, because of my upbringing and just a variety of factors, I think a lot of people fall into the same category of free those performance. It was man, if I am seen as like good at my job, if I get that high tier rating, if I get that, which they come as the bonus but really the money wasn’t it. It was, “Can I get that rating and can people think of me as good at what I do? Then I’ll be kind of complete” or whatever.
And ultimately, like that’s what like that stage of consulting was for me. It was I wanted to because I was a Christian and because I want to have a bigger purpose than doing my work, like I want to do it for my clients and to help them and to serve them and to make my lives better but ultimately like, I am doing it because I want my boss to look kindly upon me and to think that I’m good at my job and that is I think something that there’s every Christian –
I mean, in general, right? But especially in work has to face find facedown and like kill those idols because until you do that, you will always have something in the way of your worship to God, and like we were saying early in fighting His presence into your work and honestly, it’s hard to do because in corporate America or just in business in general, idolatry although it’s not called that is so well accepted, right?
Like, make the money, get the promotion, be highly acclaimed, whatever it may be is so like well accepted in our culture and so praised in our culture that it becomes normal to get into a firm like mine or any of the, you know, professional services firm where there is such a high criteria to get in and then such a kind of like you’re around the best so be the best like mentality to come in and live out that truth.
But in the reality, like as a Christian, our identity is you know, I love Rob Reimer says this in Soul Care, like our value was settled on the cross. Like, our identity is as a son or a daughter of the Risen, of the Father, right? A prince or princess in the kingdom of heaven. So, we do not need money or validation from our boss or promotion to validate our existence. We can free then to love people selflessly even to the cross, right?
Because we are free to do that knowing that, like as Daniel puts it, we are highly acclaimed in the kingdom of heaven. So, I think it’s hard to do that in corporate America because yeah, ultimately, because these things are so well accepted, what you find is that man, like people go down this path to its logical end and the logical end is like pretty profound darkness and sadness and unfulfillment.
And then you think about the amount of stories you hear about fathers who are absentee or like divorces that happened or people who are medicating themselves with drugs or alcohol or whatever, it’s ultimately because like these idols of work and money will never satisfy and had this crazy, like this really beautiful conversation with a fellow, kind of PwC like manager and she was saying, “I got that promotion to manager and then I was like, well, now what?”
I’m like, “Yeah, that’s exactly the point.” Because these things will never – there will always be a “now what” until your identity and your worth is settled with Jesus, which is where it was always meant to be. So, I think it’s important work to find and kind of knock down these idols through the power of the Holy Spirit and know that it is hard because there really is almost like a temple worship of sorts set up in a lot of our – in corporate America and the way that it’s set up.
[0:36:56.0] JR: Yeah, and I think corporate America is setting up a lot of those idols but I also think this faith in work conversation can unintentionally set up some of those idols, right? Let me riff on this for a second, see if you’re on track with me. Like, we have to kill idols ruthlessly, Counterfeit Gods, The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness by Tim Keller, excellent books to that end, and yet, you want to do your most exceptional work because you believe as we talked about before that your work is a means of redemptive participation, right?
But if you do exceptional work at PwC, Justin, there typically comes with that, not always, but there typically comes with that more money, bigger titles, and more and more temptation, right? So, there’s a tension here and I’m curious to hear if you’ve thought about how to manage this well but like, how do you manage that tension between pursuing excellence in the work because you believe that you are sowing eternity into a place like PwC and rejecting the idolatries temptations that come when you are naturally achieving more and being given more responsibility within the firm? Does that make sense?
[0:38:02.9] JM: Yeah. No, definitely. I think ultimately because it really is, you’re right. I just want to validate that is a huge temptation and like, you think about like Master of One, right? You are called and created to do a thing, so become great at that thing. Like that actually is aligned with the truth of the gospel, right? That is what God – that is God’s truth. The problem is us as humans we love to make idols out of things and you’re right.
We take that and we run with it and we say that like, “I can do this in my own power and contribute to God’s kingdom in my own power.” But the reality is like, we do not have the power to do this. Like we – I was actually preparing for this conversation, reflecting back on some of my journal entries found at that time of kind of like discontent last year and one of the things I wrote, like I was in our – like I go to church in the city here in New York. Jon Tyson has been on the podcast, it’s such a joy.
[0:38:51.7] JR: I got lots of churches and city friends, it’s awesome.
[0:38:53.9] JM: Yeah, it’s such a joy to be in a church that like really chases after the presence of God but because of that, we did prayer rooms multiple times a day and I was in the prayer room in the season and I just remember I was on my knees under the like revelation that we are not – like we don’t deserve to have a calling. Like, we are not entitled to our purpose, like we are not entitled to do the work of God.
And I was just on my knees repenting of that, of like, “God, like I’ve been chasing after my calling and my purpose and like doing excellent work and all these things but like, it is a gift from You that you would choose to use broken sinful finite people to carry out Your redemption of this world.” So, I really did have to repent of that and I honestly, that’s a daily repentance of like, “God, please do not let me make this about me.”
“I want to make it about me, I want to make it about me, I want to make it about me but it’s not. It’s about You. Like, the story that I’m participating in is Your story, not Justin’s story.” So, I do think having that revelation of like man, I’m not entitled to this work and it’s not my story, it’s God’s work and it’s God’s story and then what does that do? It brings you right back in the relationship to say, “I do not want to speak a word I don’t hear You speaking or do a thing I don’t hear You doing. Like please, do not let me separate from You and Your will.”
[0:40:09.8] JR: That’s really good. I told the story in The Sacredness of Secular Work, like I hate the word deserve and I hate anything that like smells of entitlement and there’s this one time my daughter, Kate, I think it was her sixth birthday, she came out to me and said, “Daddy, Gigi owes me a trip to Build-A-Bear, right?” And I was like, “Oh, this is great. I can teach my kid a lesson about grace.”
And I was like, “Kate, nobody owes you a thing.” I literally said I was like, “The only thing that you and I deserve is death because of our sin. Everything else…” And she cuts me off. She’s like, “No, no, no, but Dad, look at this cover. Gigi says, I quote, “Owe you a trip to Build-A-Bear.” And I felt like an idiot but hey, listen, my point still stands, right? Like, you and I, the only thing we are entitled to is eternity apart from God due our sin, justly due our sin, right?
But in Christ, we have redemption and salvation. That’s the mercy, right? But in His grace, God has given us a calling and a purpose and He’s given us good works that somehow, miraculously even as miraculous as the resurrection itself, our are means of sowing God’s kingdom on earth as it is in heaven but man, I love that you pointed that out, Justin. We don’t deserve that, we are not entitled to a calling or a purpose.
As I’m talking, I’m repenting of that with you, brother, that was a good word. That is a really good word. Hey, bro, four questions we wrap up every show with, I can’t believe we’re running out of time. I could talk for hours about this. What job would you love in God’s grace for Him to give you on the new earth free from the curse of sin?
[0:41:53.6] JM: Jordan, I love this question. I love that you ask it because –
[0:41:56.3] JR: By the way, I ask it to like, I like joke about this like in the real world. If people laugh, then I’m like, “But for real, like I’m serious.”
[0:42:06.4] JM: The reason why the question is so great is because so many of us grew up with this like not, like this truncated view of salvation and to get to them, I imagine what the world is going to be like in the new creation, like it’s such a joy.
[0:42:20.1] JR: By the way, a little P.S.A., if you are an aspiring novelist and want to write this to expand our biblically informed imaginations, I will promote it to my entire audience. Please, somebody, write a novel set on the new earth with Isiah 65 as your basis, there you go, end P.S.A. Okay, what do you want to do?
[0:42:38.8] JM: And I will be the first person to buy that book. I love people, Jordan, and I love leading people. So, I think it’s vague but like I want to be a leader of people in the new heavens and new earth and I think, I don’t know if like that looks like what I’m doing now, like creating strategy and making that strategy into like execution and then bringing that to life but whatever it is, I want to be in deep relationship with as many people as possible, knowing that under a glorified form, I could probably maintain a ton of relationships. Like that to me sounds like a ton of fun. So, whatever that job is, that’s what I want.
[0:43:11.4] JR: That’s good. Hey, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends?
[0:43:18.5] JM: All right. Well, this question is always convicting to one because I do not give away enough books is what this question teaches me.
[0:43:23.7] JR: I love that answer.
[0:43:25.7] JM: But I do recommend books and –
[0:43:27.7] JR: What do you talk about the most? Maybe that’s a different reframe of that question.
[0:43:31.4] JM: Yeah. I’ll do a couple just quickly. I mean, I will say and it’s not just because I’m on your podcast, I recommend The Sacredness of Secular Work and the Master of One more than any other book I’ve ever read because it’s so practical and important for people to understand this in their work. So, that’s a big one for me.
[0:43:47.6] JR: By the way, you mentioned Paul Sohn a couple of minutes ago, who is running Redeemer’s Center for Faith & Work in New York that Tim Keller founded. He gives away The Sacredness of Secular Work like crazy and I pinged him one time. I was like, “Paul, thank you, number one, love it, number two, you’re at Redeemer. You’re at Tim Keller’s Redeemer, like really? Like you know?”
But he’s like, “No, dude, like you're saying things in here that Tim never really went deep on.” I’m like, “Okay if you say so.” But Tim is the one I give away the most.
[0:44:15.9] JM: I just reread Every Good Endeavor and I do have to like, you always have to recommend that one. I’m actually doing Gotham this year, Jordan, and –
[0:44:23.5] JR: Oh, that’s awesome.
[0:44:24.1] JM: We had our first retreat this weekend and reading the end of Every Good Endeavor where Tim Keller talks about Gotham, as I stepped into the room to begin, it was such a cool experience.
[0:44:32.7] JR: All right, so hold on, 95% of our listeners have no idea what you’re talking about. Give the 30-second pitch of what The Gotham Fellowship is.
[0:44:39.1] JM: Yeah, The Gotham Fellowship is a nine-month – the way I like to describe it, my little elevator pitch is it’s seminary for business people. It’s a deep dive into the theology of faith and work in community, in New York City, where yeah, you learn a lot about faith in work but you do it with a group of people that meets every single week, and you do it, yeah, to basically form your understanding of faith and relationship with God, and then live that out in a practical and redeeming way in New York but also in your workplace.
[0:45:08.7] JR: Yeah, I love it so much. Hey dude, who do you want to hear on this podcast?
[0:45:12.5] JM: I don't know the name, Jordan, but I would love to hear a CEO or exec, like someone in the executive suite of like a Fortune 500, like big, corporate company who practically applies the stuff that we’re talking about right now to their work because I have searched like long and wide to find like mentors or anybody that’s like really at that – the generation above us that really lives the stuff out and/or have really important big jobs that of you know, demand a lot from them but still do it for the glory of God. I really want to hear a perspective on that.
[0:45:49.4] JR: That’s good, that’s really good. All right, Justin, what’s one thing you want to leave our listeners with before we sign off?
[0:45:55.8] JM: Yeah. Look, I think the number one thing I’ve learned in this season is that it’s all about the presence of God. Like, all of the things that we’re talking about here are just so we can truly live every day with the Lord, and it always brings me back to Psalm 84:10. “Better is one day in Your courts than a thousand elsewhere.” I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
And reading that verse before I came on, it kind of – it’s the first time I ever noticed that like, He talks about a job in that verse. Like, I’d rather be a doorkeeper, like this humble little job in the kingdom of God than to dwell and relax in the tents of the wicked and I really have seen that to be true and I hope that throughout my life, it gets even more true but the number thing I would say is it is better to be in one day in the courts of God than spend a thousand elsewhere.
[0:46:45.9] JR: That’s good, that’s a great word to end on. Bro, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do, man, for the glory of God and the good of others. I’ve heard so much about your great work from mutual friends and thank you for the reminder to source our purpose in Jesus’ redemptive act but also for the reminder that God’s presence is in large part, the purpose, right? And so, man, that was such a good reminder that I needed today.
Guys, if you want to connect with Justin, you can find him pretty easily on LinkedIn, Justin Mathews, search PwC, and you’ll find it pretty easily. Justin, man, thank you so much for your time today, brother.
[0:47:23.3] JM: Jordan, thank you so much, it was a joy and an honor, and glory be to God.
[0:47:28.1] JR: Amen.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:47:28.9] JR: I freaking love that episode. I hope you guys did too. Hey, if you’ve got a guest that you’d love to hear on the show, let me know at JordanRaynor.com/contact. Thank you, guys, for listening, I’ll see you next week.
[END]