On humble, dirty, Jesus-like jobs
Jordan Raynor sits down with Jillian Jenkins, Lunch Lady, to talk about why she turned down a job to make more money and work from home, what God’s Word says about humble, dirty jobs, and how we can lead others away from Christ with our words and our actions at work.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals, but who work as scientists, and plumbers, and paramedics. That's the question we explore every week on this podcast. Today, I'm posing it to Jillian Jenkins, a humble Lunch Lady in Minneapolis Minnesota.
Jillian and I recently sat down to talk about why she turned down a job that would give her more money and allow her to work from home. We talked about what God's word has to say about humbled dirty jobs, and how we can lead others away from Christ with our words and our actions while we work. I think you guys are going to be really encouraged by this conversation with Jillian Jenkins.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:09] JR: Jillian Jenkins, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[00:01:12] JJ: Hello.
[00:01:12] JR: Well, hey, so I say on the podcast all the time, I invite people to nominate guests, including themselves to be on the show. And you did this, and I want to thank you publicly for doing it. I do not want the Mere Christians Podcast to just tell stories from the Joni Eareckson Tada’s of the world, or the Tony Dungy’s of the world who are famous the world over. I want to tell stories of how the gospel is shaping the work of exceptional professionals that you've never heard of, like Jillian Jenkins. So publicly, just go on to say, there's a fruit that comes from nominating yourself and I'm so glad you did. Thank you very much.
[00:01:50] JJ: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:52] JR: Yeah. I think many of us remember our lunch ladies from school. I don't remember the lunch ladies. I do remember the lunch dude. Mr. Ross, who was like, is, I still know him, like this total gem of a person. I'm curious, do you have fond memories of your lunch lady or ladies growing up?
[00:02:11] JJ: There's one that really stands out. Her name was Charlotte. She was older. She also babysat our dog whenever we were gone. Like she ran – that was like her other job. She had like a puppy motel. She ran a puppy hotel in her house, and she was like, really great with the dogs. So, we connected with that, too. And then like, yeah, and the lunch line. She was the lady that was a stickler for the rules, but also really sweet at the same time. And then, they're just – some of them going through the line and they're always smiling and being like, “Oh, yeah. Hey, you want this”, type of thing. Just kind of vague memories of that. When I was the younger type of thing, it just kind of helped make the atmosphere more comfortable, because school can be scary. There's a lot going on. In high school, and middle school, there's a lot going on there too, and it's just nice to see friendly faces that don't have the pressure of being your teacher attached to it, I guess.
[00:03:13] JR: Yeah. I mean, what's clear is that the job of lunch staff is an incredibly hard, incredibly humble job, all at a cultural moment that values fame, and platforms. I would argue maybe above anything else, and you told me before we started recording that even in the midst of that cultural pressure. The Gospel you believe enables you to find genuine peace and joy with your job. Talk about that. How so?
[00:03:46] JJ: Well, so yeah, some background, I, like a lot of people have big dreams and big goals, and I think everybody has like that want to be noticed, I guess. Because of the pressure of society, there's that feeling of like, “Oh, I'm failing, because nobody's noticing me” type of thing. So, it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with this kind of thing to be like, what I am, in my own way, getting that, and then also, the Bible tells us to not seek that kind of thing out, which is easier said than done sometimes.
But the other day, I was reflecting on that, the last will be first, and the first will be the last kind of thing, and I just came to peace with this moment of, or in the moment of, people are going to look at me and be like, “Oh, she's just a lunch lady.” But in heaven. I'm hoping I'm being celebrated in a way because I'm touching these kids’ lives and the Bible is also clear about, we're not leading the little ones astray. And I take that very seriously with my kids, with the kids that I serve at church and at my school, even if I don't know if they're Christians or not. I don't know much about their religious background and faith. I have kids of all faiths walking through. We have a very high Somalian population in our area, and so there's a lot of kids we get – we do have a lot of refugees and stuff like that, too. Yeah, I don't know.
I realized, over the years, that all of the jobs that I have had, that I have really liked, have all involved service because I worked as a barista and I really loved that job, even though I was just a barista. People would come in, and I make connections with my coworkers and my customers. So, one of my customers actually, unfortunately, passed away. He would come in every day, like, I still remember his order. It was a large soy chai latte with less foam. I still remember it. He would come in, he was in a wheelchair, and I looked up the information for his wake online because I was like, “Oh, well”, and this was after – I was on break because I had my first son. So, I wasn't even working there for months. I was on maternity leave. But I went and I went to this wake. His widow was like, “Oh, how did you know him?” I said, “Oh, well, I worked at the coffee shop, and I was kind of embarrassed, like, oh, I just worked at the coffee shop.” She goes, “Oh my gosh, he talked about you guys all the time. You made his day. He would go in and all he does is talk about you guys and what's going on with your lives.”
At that moment, I was just like, “Wow.” Yeah, people do really make connections with me. I'm just a barista. But people are like, I'm making a difference in their lives. Wow. So, I tried some other jobs after that, and I just – they made me more money, but I wasn't happy. It just didn't feel good. So, I took this job at the school out of necessity. I needed a job that worked with my kids’ schedules and my own. And I had this opportunity to potentially take a job from home that would have paid more money, but it involved stuff that I don't know. Listening to them talk about the job and during the interview, just didn't feel right in my soul.
[00:07:36] JR: It just didn’t feel like you.
[00:07:37] JJ: It didn't feel like me. It felt like it was just going to suck all my energy down, and it wasn't something where I was going to be happy or doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
[00:07:50] JR: Yeah. I think that's it, right? As you're talking, I'm like, “Oh, man, the reason why you can be content and joy” – not just content, that's the wrong word. Joyful in doing a humble job as a lunch lady, is because you know this is the work that God has called you to do in this season, right? If that's what he's called you to do, to serve people, then I’m thinking about that quote in Sho Baraka’s great book. He said I might get it wrong. But I think substantively, he's right. He said, “If God has called you to be a trashman, don't stoop so low as to be a king.” I think that's spot on. He’s called you to be a lunch lady. Don't stoop so low as to have a stay-at-home job. For you personally, that's not what God's called you to do. Right?
[00:08:36] JJ: Yeah. And then I got done with my interview with the lunch ladies, and that was like, “Wow, this feels” – I'm really excited. “Oh, this is exciting.” They even asked me in my interview. How do you view the lunch staff? Do you just see it as just a job? Or do you see it as something that's valuable? And it's like, it is valuable. I think that's easy to forget, though, at the moment for some people.
[00:09:01] JR: Totally. I'm curious if you have spent time meditating on the fact that Jesus himself had such a humble profession.
[00:09:10] JJ: I have sometimes, but sometimes it's easy for me to kind of forget that part.
[00:09:16] JR: When you do think of it, what is the impact of that?
[00:09:23] JJ: It's just when I think of Jesus, I think of him meeting people in all kinds of humble places. I think that's part of why it's easy to forget that he worked as a carpenter because it's so humble.
[00:09:39] JR: Interesting. Yeah, that's a great point.
[00:09:40] JJ: We’re more interested in the big stories and the miracle and the flashiness, that it's easy to forget, like, “Oh, but he worked as a carpenter.” And even some of the other disciples, worked other jobs, tent makers, fishermen. And they're doing these not-so-glamorous jobs, but again, we forget about them because we're attracted to the miracles and stuff like that. Forgetting that there are all these other miracles probably happening while they're doing their work. Miracles come in all shapes and sizes and all kinds of stories and that kind of thing. And I think it's just easy to gloss over some of those other ones.
But when I think about it, yeah, I mean, it's comforting. Because it's – I mean, again, I think a lot of people, we have humble jobs. So, it's comforting to be like, they all had humble jobs and did amazing things. John wrote in his Gospel about how there were so many things that happen, not one, the world couldn't contain them.
[00:10:45] JR: I've never thought about that connection you just made, but I think that's probably right. One of the reasons we forget about Jesus working as a carpenter is because it was so humble. It just doesn't align with our modern construct of the kinds of actions that deserve our attention and focus. And because Scripture doesn't spend hardly any real estate talking about it, right? That's part of the reason.
But I've said it before in a lot of my writings. I'll say it, Lord willing a thousand more times before I die. God intentionally placed Jesus in the home of a carpenter, in a humble profession. He didn't have to. He could have chosen for Jesus to be an esteemed Pharisee, or a priest or a wealthy politician. But instead, he chose an incredibly humble vocation of a carpenter. And as you pointed out, Julian, when he kicked off his kingdom-building project, he selected others with humble jobs like fishermen, to come alongside him and advance the kingdom. If that doesn't give dignity to the “humblest, dirtiest jobs”, yeah, I don't know what does. Talk for a minute, though, about how you see the specific work in the lunchroom, as God's work in the world. What's the connection between what you're doing serving kids and what God's called us to do in the world, Jillian?
[00:12:06] JJ: I know for me, so like, I make connections with these kids. For example, we have some – we have a Ukrainian refugee in the lunch line. The first week she came through, she was nervous. She doesn't speak very much English, very polite, but like, she didn't understand how the whole thing worked. And it was just being able to be like, “Hey, Juan, you're safe. You're in a good – nothing –you're safe here.” And then being like, “Yeah, these are the things that you can eat.” You could see this relief and this comfort washing over her. Over the week, or over the days and the weeks, she started relaxing more and smiling and getting a little bit more chatty, and she's getting chatty with the kids around her. It was just really beautiful to see.
I see that with some of these other kids. I make connections with the kids that come in from the Special Needs Learning Center. They came through and first they were like, “I don't know you. I don't know what to think about you.” And they didn't like me talking, because I'm a new person, and they're very brutally honest about what they think about you. “I don't know you, so why are you talking to me?”
But over time, yeah, they started relaxing and talking more. One of them, she's so funny. She's a little first grader. She comes through and like, she would hardly say anything to me. One day, she kind of looked at me, and she had this mischievous look in her eye. She goes, “I don't trust you.” But it was kind of like a joking way that she said it. I was like, “I think I'm making connect –we're making progress with this kid.” As I said, she was kind of smiling and smirking. What are you going to do about it type of thing? I was like, “Oh, well, we got time. We'll work on this.” She's like, she walked away, Some of them, it's clear that there's a lot of families that – there are food issues in the house, I guess. I don't know how to word it. But these kids come through and you can tell their lunch at the school is one of their highly valued meals of the day. That was eye-opening to me. It's kind of humbling in that way too. I'm providing them with their most nutritious meal for the day. And it's just like, wow, that's something I got to take very seriously.
[00:14:54] JR: Yeah. Just these simple acts of kindness, though, have an eternal impact. I think we can lose that. Right? Jesus said, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Period, full stop. That's what you're doing and he's going to reward every act of obedience we do. Every act of kindness, every act of service that is motivated by a desire to just obey him and bring him glory, and his pleasure is enough. Psalm 37:23 says, “The Lord directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives.” So, even in those small acts of compassion, Jillian, the Lord is smiling upon that. And his smile, his pleasure is eternal.
I was blown away, you said, you mentioned this verse a couple of minutes ago, and you mentioned it in the pre-interview we did. I was hoping to go a level deeper here. The verse is Matthew 18:6 where Jesus said, “If anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck, and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” You made the point that you think, “leading kids astray means much more than preaching false doctrine.” Tell us, what do you think this means?
[00:16:14] JJ: I feel, kids, like people sometimes just look at kids, and they're like, “Oh, they're kids. They're loud. They're annoying.” That kind of thing. And kids, I mean, they learn so much –they're very much monkey see, monkey do. We can preach all the Gospel we want to them. But if we're not doing the Gospel, so that they can see it, they're going to be like, “Well, why are you telling me this, but you're not doing it? What's the point? Why should I be doing it too?” I feel we can preach the gospel to them without actually saying words. It's that, we're called to love our neighbor, like you said, full stop. Loving the kids is just as important as loving the adults. They're not to be – a lot of people are like, kids should be seen and not heard. That's just not true.
[00:17:17] JR: Yeah, look at Jesus.
[00:17:18] JJ: Kids, they are so insightful. Some of the most deep meaningful conversations that I have had have been with a kid, and they see things in a way that is pure and beautiful. That's just something that needs to be nurtured and explored more by adults, I think. Yeah, I think ignoring them, or trying to get them to fit into certain boxes. I mean, that's kind of leading them astray in some ways, rather than helping them grow and discover who they are and who God called them to be. Because what if you're leading them to a path of, I don't know, something that's the complete opposite of what God wants them to be? Or like I said, not loving them.
Kids, they take that and they're like, “People don't like me. People don't love me. This adult is being mean to me, because I dropped something on the ground, or I did this one wrong thing, and they're totally freaking out at me about it.” They take that and it sews something into them that's like, “Oh, I must not be worth anything. I must be a bad kid”, that kind of thing. When really, they're just making small little mistakes that everybody makes, and that can lead them astray, too, because then it sends them into this doom spiral of self-hatred, I guess. That's something that does happen at a very young age and affects them as adults.
[00:18:52] JR: This is a really big idea. Again, the context of Matthew 18:6 is Jesus, he's speaking specifically about our interactions with other children who believe in Him, right? But all throughout the New Testament, there are other warnings against being false prophets. Again, this verse is mainly talking about explicitly teaching false doctrine with our words. But I think what you're pointing out, Jillian, I think this is so wise, we can also preach false doctrine with our lives. There's a sense that all of us can be false witnesses, false ambassadors of Christ, in the way we treat those we work with, whether they're kids in your context, or in the lives of most of our listeners, the coworkers that we come in contact with at work. If we're not showing them the love of Christ in Word and in deed, that has the ability to lead people astray. Lead them, push them further away from the love of Christ, right?
[00:19:52] JJ: Yeah, for sure.
[00:19:54] JR: You mentioned to me before we start recording, there's a prayer you pray in your car before you walk into work every day to kind of set your mind right here. What do those prayer sound like?
[00:20:06] JJ: So, my drive to work is maybe like three to five minutes and they're usually, I get up and I'm going and I'm always like, really kind of nervous before I go in. Because I don't want to mess this up. Because if I mess things up at work, it's not just me who's impacted. It's a kid. I could screw up an allergy food. There are all these things that could go wrong. So, I'm like, okay. I get in the car, and I'm like, “God, take away the anxiety.” That's always the first thing, “Take away the anxiety, it's going to be fine.” But then I get going, and I'm like, “Okay, God, I'm going into work. I don't know what my day is going to look like. But whatever it looks like, let me handle any problems, let me handle them with grace. Also, help me to not like chew” – I'm very good at chewing on everything, to the point where I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I messed up.” I’m like, “Help me to not get anxious about that stuff.” Because that's just going to ruin my day at work.
But then I'm also like, “God, I don't know where you want me to be today. Do you want me serving on the line? Do you want me at the cash register? Do you want me behind the scenes today? I don't know where I'm going to go.” So, there are places where I would rather be, not where I think I should go. Where I would rather be, because that's my comfort zone. I like being at the cash register, and washing the dishes, those are my comfort zones. Yeah, they're just – that's where I feel like my skills are flourishing, I guess. I'm less stressed out there. What I don't like to do is be on the line, because it's very stressful. There are just so many more things that I have to take care of, and monitor and that kind of thing.
But I don't know where I'm going to be. So, I just say, “You know God, even if it's on the line, which is my stress point, if that's where you need me to be today, for whatever reason, put me there, even if I'm uncomfortable. Just put me where you need me to be. And when I'm there, don't abandon me.” So that I'm not drowning in my uncomfortable spot. I'm just like, “Okay, Jesus, just be with me wherever I'm going, because I need you. I'm not going to be able to do these things without you.” So, if I go in, and I'm on the line. I'm just praying under my breath or mentally thinking, “Okay, Jesus, I need you with me. Stay with me here, because I'm freaking out.”
[00:22:40] JR: So, it's a prayer, it sounds like in the car. It's really a prayer to start the day of surrender, and inviting God to do the work with you, alongside you, leading you to specific people, specific positions in that lunchroom to do his work, right?
[00:22:57] JJ: Exactly. Yes. That's exactly it.
[00:23:00] JR: I love it. Hey, so in addition to the work you do in the lunch room, you also write fiction. You published a lot of fiction books. How many books have you published now?
[00:23:09] JJ: I mean, over the years, I would say it's probably been close to 20. I don't know. My publishing journey is a whole completely different thing. That could go another hour of talking and so I'll keep it short. I've worked with different publishers, and a lot of them didn't work out. So, I have a lot of things like kind of on my back list.
[00:23:29] JR: Is that the dream? If I could do anything, I really want to write.
[00:23:34] JJ: Yeah. I mean, that is the dream. That's a big dream. I have all these ideas and so like I'm still writing. I've taken a step back from just publishing which is this is part of a funny story. So, as I was getting ready to publish my next thing, God, don't do it this way. Don't do it this way. But I was so excited to be like, “Oh, I'm going to publish that.” I didn't listen and it crashed and burned, in epic fashion. So, I'm still writing, but God has told me this is a long game. I don't want you to reach it. It's getting that patience to just – the dream is to publish. The dream is to get the big book deal, to see my book in Barnes and Noble and on the bookshelves not just self-published online kind of thing. But to get the actual book deal. I want to have a book deal that's so great that I'm going to need to turn my full-time lunch lady thing into just part time. Because I would still like to keep doing that on the side. It's been good for my creative energy too, to just step away and do physical work.
[00:24:46] JR: This is I bring it up. You're going exactly where I wanted you to go. I think a lot of listeners right now are resonate with what you're saying. They have these big, unfulfilled dreams for their career, and they got a day job in the present. How do you manage that tension well? Embracing the dream, but also being faithful and finding genuine, because it doesn't sound like it's fake joy for you in the lunchroom. I don't hear you saying that my job as a lunch lady is only a means to an end until I can write. How do you hold those two things together, the dream and the reality of today, and do it in a faithful way?
[00:25:30] JJ: It's just remembering, I'm believing that God promised this to me. I'm not just imagining this in my head type of thing. It feels like in my gut. You can just feel it. It feels like truth. God gave me these stories, and why would he give me these stories if he doesn't want me to do something with them? That's the other thing. I've known for a long time, since I was like, I don't know, third grade. God created me to be a storyteller. I've always had a story in me. For a long time, I didn't know what to do with it. And then I read your Called to Create book. I was like, “Well, God is creative.” So, thinking of God as a creative God, that gave me comfort, because it was also just like, “Oh, well, I'm just creating these fiction stories that are just entertaining. They don't have any deeper meaning or anything like that.”
I read your book, though, and it was like, “Oh, God made me to be creative and I'm not going to let that go, just because it's not working out the way that I wanted it to work out.” But I have to do these other jobs for money, for other reasons, that kind of thing. These jobs are giving me joy. So, it's not like it's a big problem. I don't want to let go of that either, because I find great joy in working with others in getting my hands dirty, and doing the physical aspect of the job, as well as finding joy in creating these separate worlds type of thing. So, it's just going, “Okay, I'm going to do both.” It's just finding balance, but I don't want to give either one up.
[00:27:15] JR: Yeah. Isaiah 65 says, “God's chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands on the New Earth.” Maybe you'll be serving food in one of the New Earth's epic dining halls. Maybe you'll be filling heavens libraries with works of fiction, right? But in the present, just called to be faithful to the word God's put in front of you, right?
[00:27:38] JJ: Yeah.
[00:27:39] JR: Amen. Well said. Hey, Jillian, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending, or gifting to others the most frequently?
[00:27:54] JJ: Oh, so I definitely recommend your books to a lot of people, even non-Christian friends, especially the Redeeming Your Time book. I just know so many people that are like, I don't know what to do. I don't know. My book recommendations beyond that, I don't have anything that I specifically recommend, because I try to recommend something that's catered to one's fictional tastes or something that I enjoyed.
[00:28:23] JR: Well, I'll tell you what, on the topic of Redeeming Your Time, this is fascinating to me. Obviously, I wrote that book for the church. I wrote that book for believers. It is the Gospel is on hopefully, nearly every page of that book. But so many people have gifted it to their non-Christian friends, because it is so practical and so helpful. It's interesting, we see a lot of non-believers who have loved the book, just because it's practical, and they're open to the Gospel message because of it, which has been just an unbelievable thing to watch God do. It's very cool.
Jillian, who do you want to hear on this podcast, talking about how the gospel influences the work of mere Christians in the world?
[00:29:01] JJ: I think it'd be interesting to hear from maybe someone in the medical profession, especially given everything that's going on right now. That balance of seeing everything from a medical scientific point of view, but also from a Gospel point of view. Because I feel like there’s a lot of clash in that right now. Can there be both? That kind of thing is having confidence in science, taking away from faith. Just things like that would be really – I think that would be interesting to hear.
[00:29:37] JR: Jillian, what’s one thing from our conversation today you want to reiterate before we sign off to encourage listeners like you working in the world as mere Christians?
[00:29:49] JJ: Don't undervalue yourself because you're just a lunch lady, just a Target worker, or any kind of retail, or just a nurse, or just an anything, fill in the blank. You know what I mean? People are really good at undervaluing themselves and God values us. Every one of us is his masterpiece.
[00:30:18] JR: Yeah, Ephesians 2:10, we are God's masterpiece. Yeah.
[00:30:19] JJ: And you are where you need to be and what you do is valuable. You just need to kind of open your eyes and see it. If you're not seeing it, ask God to show you, I guess.
[00:30:33] JR: And I think God's using you today, Jillian, to open up a lot of people's eyes to the meaningful work they do. I just want to commend you for the exceptional work you do, Jillian, every day, for the glory of God, the good of others, the good as some of the least of these in your community. Thank you for serving as a faithful ambassador for our King, giving the kids in that lunch room a taste of good food, yes, but more importantly, a taste of Christ, a taste of his kingdom. And thank you for reminding us that the Creator God does humble work himself, smiles upon the humble, obscure work that most mere Christians listening to this podcast are doing today. Guys, if you want to check out Jillian’s books, you could search J.F. Jenkins on Goodreads and Amazon. Jillian, thank you again so much for hanging out with me today.
[00:31:26] JJ: You're very welcome. Like I said, thank you for having me.
[OUTRO]
[00:31:28] JR: This episode's a reminder that I mean when I say when I tell you to recommend yourself, nominate yourself to be a guest here on Mere Christians Podcast. If you feel like you have something substantive to say about how the Gospel shapes what you do, why you do it or how you do your work, I want you to nominate yourself right now at jordanraynor.com/contact. Some of the best episodes of this podcast are ones that come and feature you, our listeners, our audience. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
[END]