Relaxing into the goodness of God
Jordan Raynor sits down with Jessica Honegger, Founder of Noonday Collection, to talk about what dignified work looks like practically, what the shame Adam and Eve experienced after the Fall has to do with courage and our work, and how prayer and Sabbath can help us “relax into the goodness of God.”
Links Mentioned:
Food for the Hungry International
Curt Thompson: The Soul of Desire
[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christ follower who is pursuing world-class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the Gospel influences their work.
Today's guest, is Jessica Honegger. She's the founder and co-CEO of Noonday Collection, the world's most successful fair-trade jewelry business. In 2015, Inc. Magazine named Noonday Collection number 45 out of the top 5,000 fastest growing companies in America, also designating it the third fastest growing American business owned by a woman. To date, Noonday has created dignified work for over 4,500 artisans across the globe, impacting over 20,000 family members as you'll hear about in this episode.
Jessica and I sat down recently, had a terrific conversation about what ‘dignified work’ actually means, and what does it look like practically and how can we be creating dignified work for others in line with God's image for work in the Garden of Eden? Speaking of the Garden of Eden, we also talked about what the shame that Adam and Eve experienced after the fall has to do with courage and our work today. And finally, we had a terrific discussion about how prayer and Sabbath can help us “relax into the goodness of God”. You guys are going to love this conversation with my friend, Jessica Honegger.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:02:01] JR: Hey Jessica, thanks so much for joining me.
[00:02:03] JH: Thanks for having me.
[00:02:03] JR: So, you're based in one of my all-time favorite food cities.
[00:02:09] JH: Oh, okay. I can talk food. I was afraid you were going to go to music and I'm not cool when it comes to music, man. I'm like stuck in the ‘90s there, but I can chat food with you.
[00:02:20] JR: I can’t talk music. I can't talk sports. I can talk queso. So, Jessica in Austin, Texas, let's do it. Rapid fire, best of Austin food questions. Alright, first category base queso in Austin?
[00:02:36] JH: Tacodeli.
[00:02:38] JR: Oh, that's a good answer. That's a solid answer.
[00:02:39] JH: Yeah, most people are going to say Torchy’s, but Tacodeli is just kind of that underdog that you got to get. It's very liquidy, I don't know how to describe it. But it’s just unique, very unique.
[00:02:52] JR: I do love Torchy’s queso. This is going to be an unpopular answer to this, but I dig Fonda San Miguel, with the fancy little dragon.
[00:03:02] JH: Yeah, it's so beautiful.
[00:03:03] JR: It’s a cool spot. Alright, best barbecue?
[00:03:06] JH: Well, Black’s. I'm going to go with Black’s, which is actually the original location is of course and Lockhart which is the heart of barbecue down here. They have a location here in Austin and it melts in your mouth. Makes me want to go there right now.
[00:03:20] JR: I love Black’s. I'm a fancier barbecue guy. I dig Lambert's downtown. Does that place even still there, downtown?
[00:03:27] JH: Yeah, yep, it is.
[00:03:29] JR: It's a good spot. Alright, best dessert in town?
[00:03:32] JH: Well, I'm an ice cream girl. So, I'm going to go with Tèo's Gelato.
[00:03:36] JR: Never been. I got to go.
[00:03:38] JH: It’s great. It's a small family-owned gelato spot.
[00:03:41] JR: I haven't been Austin since pre pandemic. Is Gourdough's still hanging around? Gourdough's Donuts?
[00:03:47] JH: Well, okay. Yes. I go there like once a year and it's usually like, either I'm celebrating something or I'm just like, really treating myself. I can only handle it once because it's so intense. And every time I regret it, the longing that I have for their fresh, just straight up donut, dipped in this butter honey sauce, and it’s fresh out of that fryer. And I literally can't eat any other donuts. It's not worth it. Gourdough’s is the only way.
[00:04:22] JR: That’s a bold statement. Gourdough's is next level.
[00:04:26] JH: It’s another level. Even people that don't like donuts, like Gourdough's.
[00:04:30] JR: You have to.
[00:04:31] JH: Thank you for reminding me of this.
[00:04:33] JR: Your welcome. You're welcome. You can go treat yourself.
[00:04:36] JH: I won’t be able get over it until I go eat one, now.
[00:04:41] JR: I love it. Hey, that was a fun way to start an episode. Alright, so for those who don't know, what is Noonday Collection, Jessica?
[00:04:47] JH: Well, we are a social impact fashion brand and we are creating opportunities for artisans that live in really vulnerable parts of the world, many of whom have been on the news in the last few months. Places like Haiti, and Afghanistan, and India, Peru. We create a marketplace for those beautiful products, everything from bags and candles, to earrings and necklaces. And that marketplace is created both through our online website and through our network of ambassadors that are entrepreneurs, that are earning an income while making an impact in the world.
[00:05:27] JR: I love it. Give us an idea, the scale and the impact of the business thus far.
[00:05:32] JH: Oh, gosh. Well, we are 11 years in. So, it's pretty amazing to be a decade and we started off with two entrepreneurs in Uganda who were extremely poor, literally didn't have a house and their kids weren’t in school, and they started to make some jewelry for us. Now, it's scaled to thousands of artisans around the world. The impact is not just in those numbers, but really in – we partner with 30 different artisan businesses. And it's the people that lead these companies that have been able to really scale themselves and also find other buyers for their products so that they are now middle class, raised up managers, and are really operating viable businesses in their countries, and they really are leaders that are transforming their communities.
[00:06:28] JR: I love that. I love the way you guys measure impact. So, I'd be curious to hear you talk a little bit about your path prior to Noonday, because you talk about this in your book, Imperfect Courage. It's not the typical founder story that people would expect. Talk about how all this happened.
[00:06:46] JH: Yes, I mean, prior to Noonday, it's so interesting, because now, of course in retrospect, I can see that nothing that I've ever done has been wasted. But at the time, every time I was doing a certain job or starting something, I'm like, “What's the purpose of this?” I majored in Latin American Studies, I moved overseas to work in Guatemala, moved back to Austin, worked for a stint at a jewelry store for a year, which felt completely random, and started to flip houses, got into interior design, and got my Master's in Education, led a mentoring program for youth. I mean, I just kind of dabbled throughout my 20s and early 30s.
And then mid 30s or early 30s, my husband and I, we had two children the biological way, but we had met during that stint when I had lived overseas, and we were working for an organization called Food for the Hungry International. During that time, we didn't know how transforming it would actually be. But our eyes were open to how the people that we saw emerge out of poverty, a lot of it was through entrepreneurship. We saw the impact of that and that began us on this thought journey of, “What are viable solutions to create opportunities for people living in more vulnerable places in the world, and more vulnerable times in their lives?”
Entrepreneurship, we saw, could be a pathway for that. And that's also when we began to learn more about the orphan crisis. Many years later, when we began our family, we had our two wonderful biological children, and I really didn't want to go through pregnancy again. It just seemed like international adoption was really what God was leading us to. So, we began this international adoption journey, and decided to adopt from a small country in East Africa, Rwanda. And as many listeners might know, international adoption can be quite expensive.
Yeah, we had a little nest egg set aside for that adoption. This was during my house flipping stint. Okay. So, that we're flipping houses, we probably have five houses with no dock loans. This is before the whole housing meltdown. We were on our way into this adoption, had already identified where, who, all of that, when the housing market crashed, and you did not want to be working in the housing market when the housing market crashed. Suddenly, that little nest egg that we thought, “Oh, this is going to support the rest of our adoption journey” was paying the grocery bills. Soon we were going into debt. And that is when we realized I needed to do something in order to create a financial opportunity, because we didn't want to let finances get in the way of growing our family and really doing what we felt God had led us to do.
So, I had some friends, at the time, living in Uganda. And these friends of mine were friends back from my Food for the Hungry days and they had been convicted of the same thing. They had felt that entrepreneurship could be this way to create a pathway out of poverty for people. So, they were living in Uganda, just doing a bunch of different businesses and helping people scale up. Everything from a plumbing company to a mosquito spraying company. One of those businesses was an artisan business. There was this young couple Jolly and Daniel, I referred to them earlier that we started with these two artisans. They were living in Uganda and my friends saw so much potential in them, they just lacked access to a marketplace.
So, when we were on a trip, exploring adoption, we reconnected to my friends, and they threw this idea out to me, “Why don't you sell these goods, then artisan goods?” And I laughed at them. I kind of rolled my eyes, in my head, and going through my mind was, “Are you kidding me? I have so much going on. I've got two kids. I've got real estate. Now we're adopting.” But then fast forward a few months later, when we found ourselves cornered by courage, literally felt backed up against the wall, I remember just that feeling. And I remember that conversation with my friends living in Uganda. So, I texted them and said –
[00:11:14] JR: “Hey, this doesn’t sound as crazy anymore.”
[00:11:17] JH: “It doesn’t sound as crazy anymore.” And they said, “We would love to just give you this product because we've actually already paid for it in advance, and it's just sitting in a storage unit.” I drove to the storage unit, I dusted it off, I made my home a beautiful little store and invited a bunch of friends over. That unbeknownst to me, is the night that launched Noonday Collection.
[00:11:42] JR: I love it. As an adoptive father of a third child, I love it all the more. It's part of the reason why I love your story that adoption was kind of the impetus.
[00:11:54] JH: It is the impetus. It is. How old are your kids?
[00:11:57] JR: Seven, five, and one-year-old.
[00:12:00] JH: Oh, I love that.
[00:12:01] JR: They're fun ages. How old are your kids, Jessica?
[00:12:04] JH: They are 12, 13, and 15.
[00:12:08] JR: Okay. Alright. So, a little bit further down the line. Yeah. I want to go back to something you said before, this idea that nothing in your story had been wasted. I think it's easier to see now obviously, how the common thread that tied all these experiences together and what the Lord was preparing you to do in Noonday Collection. But I got to imagine, a lot of listeners are sitting here right now listening to this episode, be like, “I have no idea how my past connects together.” What do you want to say to them?
[00:12:39] JH: I would say, first of all, that it takes a lot of tries. I think that we have a linear idea of what success is, especially in America, and I was never one of those. I mean, even my kids, now I have one in high school, and she's like, “Where do I go to school? And what do I major in?” I'm like, “Oh, my gosh. I don't think it's really going to matter.” It doesn't matter to that many people unless you just have a very narrow, amazing and exclusive gift set and –
[00:13:08] JR: You want to be a brain surgeon.
[00:13:09] JH: Right, I was about to say, “A neurosurgeon”. That's so funny. Otherwise, life is just about trying and falling down and getting back up and trying again. What you're doing now, I mean, in fact, we just had these new neighbors that moved in next door, and turns out, he's an entrepreneur, and we've been hanging out for a couple months in our front yard. It turns out we have mutual friends, and so I texted their mutual friends that night and said, “Oh, my gosh, listen to who moved to next door.” And she sent me back a photo of our neighbor, this guy, winning an Olympic gold alongside Michael Phelps. And said, “Well, did he tell you that he's a gold Olympic medal swimmer?” And I'm like, “No, he has definitely left that out of the story.”
[00:13:53] JR: He’s not wearing his Olympic gold medal in the front yard? This is crazy. I think I’d wear that thing everywhere.
[00:14:02] JH: But it's just, what we are doing now doesn't mean we're going to be doing it forever. If we're not doing it forever, it doesn't make us a failure. We've got to learn that trying out our passions, our gifts, that is part of the journey, right? It's about being focused more on the journey and on faithfulness for that season, than it is on a point of arrival. And I used to live --especially after starting Noonday, and it gets sp hard to build a business. I thought there was going to be this point of arrival, where we would arrive and we'd be at this certain revenue stream or we'd have the right team, and I'd travel off into the sunset. I'm still waiting on that. So, I've just had to really surrender this idea that there is a point of arrival and operate more from a place of being really faithful and knowing that no matter what, Jesus is my reward.
[00:14:52] JR: Amen. Well said. We talk a lot about: mastery isn't a destination, the world's most masterful performance in any vocation don't believe they're masterful. That's the whole point. It is this constant humility, this constant belief that better is possible, and that the journey is kind of the point and the deliberate practice that comes along the way.
[00:15:14] JH: That's where mastery is developed is in the day and day out practice of it all. Often, many masters are in a place of plateau for so long until they get that incremental boost where those practices enable them to go to that next level.
[00:15:29] JR: Or to borrow a phrase from yours, a few minutes ago that I loved, they're forced, and they're cornered into courage. They're cornered by courage. Unpack that a little bit more. What did that feel like for you? What do you mean by that exactly? How do you see the benefits of being cornered by courage? Take this wherever you want it.
[00:15:47] JH: Well, I do think that it is in our breakdowns that lead to our breakthroughs and that sounds so cliché. But I mean, it's true. Often, it's suffering, right? That brings us to our knees, and helps us to really have to do something differently in our lives. I look back on that time, and financially, we had a mission to grow our family through adoption, and we didn't have a way. And I think about going in, we had this little cushy nest egg and thought, “Oh, we're going to be able to just adopt and not have to raise money like what we had to do when we worked for Food for the Hungry”. I had no desire to go back to that.
Yet, God's like, “Well, instead, you're going to go ask people to buy accessories.”
[00:16:37] JR: Right. Out of you home.
[00:16:38] JH: Out of my home, which is what I did like the whole following year, just asking people, “Hey, will you gather friends in your home?” I mean, I traveled all over with my jewelry, just bring them in the back of my trunk. I would couch surf on stranger's couches, but I didn't care. I was like, “Just buy this jewelry.” I think that it often takes suffering and that feeling like you are cornered, and there's only way out and it's up, right? It's looking for that possibility, and being able to create a new future with God, because we are His co-creators, and He just so delights when we create with Him in joy, and in love. I mean, it's such an act of love when we create something and build something new in the world. But I mean, usually, at least for me, comes from breakdowns that enabled me to kind of go, “Okay, I got to go do something differently.”
[00:17:39] JR: But I love the construct that you have outlined in the book, in your great podcast. This idea that it's not perfect courage, right? It's imperfect courage. You're never 100% certain of anything. Unpack this idea a little bit more. What do you mean by going scared in this concept of Imperfect Courage?
[00:18:02] JH: Yeah. I used to think that fearlessness was another point of arrival. I thought that courage meant fearlessness and courage belonged to the heroes. Courage belonged to Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, and the firefighters that rescued all the people during 9/11, and the military goes in and saves people in Afghanistan. And courage was a term that felt very far off from me and how I was living. That night, when I had invited a bunch of friends into my home, I remember standing in my living room and looking around and seeing piles of jewelry on the dining table and pillowcases with zebras on them on the couch. And not to mention, I was selling my clothes and grandma's dishes, because I was on a mission and we needed money in order to complete this adoption.
I thought, “Oh my gosh, I look really desperate.” And also, “I bet No one's going to come.” And then I'm just going to feel alone and desperate. I do believe one of our biggest fears, and since then I've gotten to know the work of Curt Thompson, who you saw me speak with access, and he's a dear friend of mine. So much of his work is about knowing that we're never alone. This idea that most of our fear comes from this idea that we're going to be in shame and by ourselves, and that's the story of Genesis, right? That is what happened, immediately Eve and Adam went ahead and they were alone in their shame. That is our worst nightmare, as human beings, because we were created for the exact opposite.
We were created for attachment and perfect connection with one another, and with God, and with creation, and that's why Jesus came and announced this whole news story that now we as Christians get to step into. So, I'm standing in my living room, I'm looking around, and I am imagining my future, and I am in shame, and I'm alone, and I'm a loser. And we often do project futures like that. Because neurobiologically, we go towards fear. I remember standing there and thinking, “Oh, maybe this is what courage is. Courage is feeling all these fears, and not cancelling and just going scared.”
My worst fears didn't come to fruition. People came, and people shopped, and people said, “I'll open my home because I love this jewelry. It's so beautiful and I'd love to introduce my friends to this.” And that really was -- Noonday was birthed in community, and I am such a big believer of community. I believe that when we're most scared, and we're feeling most shame, it's because we really are alone, and that's where we are invited to walk with other people. A big part of my story, too, is taking on a business partner, and about a year after starting Noonday, now we've been together for 10 years building this business together. I'm so grateful to not have that lonely at the top feeling because I truly believe in a life of collaboration, and that that's really where the fun is.
[00:21:28] JR: I love that. I'm curious, if you think Christ followers have unique resources to go scared?
[00:21:37] JH: Well, you would think. One would think. I mean, that's the thing because our fears and anxieties, fears, doubts. It's all about projecting a future where we are alone, we're afraid, we're all of these things. And as Christians, we know our outcome. We get Jesus. We get Jesus, and we get a Father, who looks us in the eyes every day, and we have His complete attention at all times. And we have the Holy Spirit who lives and moves in us and through us to act according to His ways in the world.
So, in so many ways, yes, my desire is that Christians would be the biggest risk takers in the world because, at the end of the day, we actually are super secure in our future. And fear is really about feeling insecure in our future. So, I laugh, because I think, “Gosh, I want to be one of those”. But in reality, in my embodied experience, I tend to go through to fear a lot. Part of me is still wrestling through that, because I just want my automatic response to be one of faith and trust in God, but you've got me and you’ve proven yourself a million times. So, why am I anxious again?
Yet, this is the work of picking up our cross and choosing to trust even in the midst of our fear, and lean in to others so that we can borrow courage and borrow faith when we need it. I know I have a group of friends right now, who is carrying me in a lot of ways. I tell them often, I think about the man who was paralyzed, and his friends that lowered him through the roof into Jesus' lap, so that he would be healed. I wonder about him, and I think, “Was he so discouraged at the time, and he had he given up hope?” He's like, “Oh, man, I've been paralyzed, yet again you're going to try something else”.
But that didn't matter, like his friends still lowered him down and their faith is what put him in that position to be healed. Again, that's where I just think that community and friendship and leaning into others is really the call of the Christian in particular. Maybe that's when you say, are we more resource than other people that don't know God? And yeah, I mean, God calls us into a level of community where he said, like, the world's going to know who I am through your unity and through how you're showing oneness, and how you're living your lives with one another. That is an amazing resource that we're given.
[00:24:21] JR: Yeah, we have the church. The global church, the local church. I think we also have an example of a Savior who can sympathize with our weaknesses. I don't know if this is a stretch but look at the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus before his crucifixion. I don't know that he had perfect what we would call perfect courage. Going to the cross, he sweat blood, right? But because he did, if you could say this go scared, we can. And if we fail, we'll still have the security salvation and God's love.
I love how Tim Keller put it once and said, “You've been saved through a dying sacrifice, so you're free to be a living one.” Jesus went scared so we can go scared to do good works that bring him great glory.
I want to get your take on two Scriptures that I think relate to risk. Seemingly contradictory, but I want to hear your take. So, Luke 9, Jesus sends His disciples out, and he says in verse three, “Take nothing for the journey. No staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt.” So essentially, risk at all. But then Paul says in 1st Timothy 5:8, “Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially their own household is denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” How do you hold passages like these together? There is a sense that we're called to provide for our households. Now, we all have way too high standards for it. I think what that includes, but how do you hold those things together? We're called to provide for families, and at the same time, we're called to risk. How do you and your husband and your family think about this?
[00:25:57] JH: I mean, it really comes down to wisdom. Wisdom is what will guide us and we're promised that when we ask God will give us wisdom, and there is risk, ignorant risk, and then there's also measured risk that's done in the context of wisdom and in community. At the end of the day, God's grace will always be enough. I think, I feel like that's holding out kind of two polar opposites. But I do feel like there's this place where God's asked us to walk in His Spirit and wisdom and in courage.
[00:26:37] JR: That’s good. Just around the Scripture, being in community, just making a choice. You talked a few minutes ago, you mentioned dignified work, you're talking about the impact of Noondaym you stress that you guys are creating dignified work, dignified jobs. How do you define dignified work? What does that look like?
[00:26:55] JH: I like to lean into my friend, Andy Crouch, who wrote, who has written many books, but Playing God is one of my favorites that really moved me. He really talks about how flourishing is, human flourishing is creating a space for humans to be human. When I think of what it means to be human, I think of what it means to go on a date with my husband. What does it mean to throw graduation party for my eighth grader? What does it mean to have a birthday coming up, and I can bake a cake and celebrate? And yet, that is not the reality of millions of the poor around the world.
Many people that we even go and work with, have never celebrated a birthday before, until now. Their dignified job, making beautiful work for Noonday and other companies, has enabled them to do things like go buy a birthday cake for the first time, or go on a date with their spouse. So, when I think of dignity, I think of that. What does it mean to have a job and live a life that enables you to express your humaneness in that garden-like way that God created us to be?
[00:28:14] JR: That's beautiful. I love that. It makes me excited for what Isaiah promises in Isaiah 65, that one day on the New Earth, everyone in God's eternal kingdom will have dignified work, right? We will not labor in vain. So yeah, what you're doing with Noonday, it's beautiful, this is wonderful. You're pointing to that future, when the problem of undignified work will be eradicated. It's promised to us. Right there, Isaiah 65, we will plant vineyards, we will build houses and live in them. We will not labor in vain. For me, that's one of the most beautiful promises in all the Scripture about our eternal dwelling with God or going back to Eden.
[00:28:58] JH: Well, it’s not even just not laboring in vain, but then how many people are actually exploited in their places of work. In Uganda and Haiti, we hear many stories about people who actually might go lay bricks for a week in construction, or a woman who might go wash someone's clothes and then never get paid. And then of course, we work with women who have been formerly trafficked. So, I do think that is Satan's -- such a big part of his scheme is to exploit our work, and that's the dark side of work, where God just wants to redeem that. I feel like Noonday is a part of partnering with God and redeeming what he always said was good. I mean, in that garden, work was good. We were called to cultivate. I mean, we were asked to work before the fall. So, it is part of God's good plan to have our vocations matter in this life.
[00:29:54] JR: I can't imagine that the last few years has been easy for you. The last two years, I mean, you're running a business where there's a lot of in-person events, selling jewelry. I'm sure there's been a lot of unrest, obviously in Afghanistan, but in other areas in which you guys work with these artisans. What's the Lord showing you over the last couple years?
[00:30:16] JH: I am in the process of discerning that right now. I feel like 2020 was a really strong year for us. I think people really rallied and felt that empathy for the world. And we're aware of, gosh, we were in this, it's a global pandemic, we're in this together. And then people suddenly were stuck at home and were spending money online. And we quickly pivoted and our Noonday Collection ambassadors began to host online events, and people were really longing for connection. So, that worked really well.
It's just that the longer this goes on, the more that we're seeing social behavior change. People are very tired of the online event. They're fatigued by that, and yet, they're not fully comfortable with having people back in their homes, even though maybe they're going to football games and music festivals and such. There is something about a home that we're seeing is more challenging, there's a lot more decision fatigue, and more hesitation and people thinking, “Let's just wait this out. I'd love to have people over to my house, maybe in the Spring.”
So, we are seeing a softening in sales that we weren't anticipating because, once the vaccine came out last spring, we anticipated things were going to be a lot more “back to normal”. And then the Delta variant really threw a wrench in our little Noonday plans. So, I think that I can be scared sometimes. It's really scary to build something for 11 years, and then have sales soften in a way that you were not anticipating, and of course, our softening sales means smaller orders for our artisan partners. So now, they're in a really hard place and they've been very much impacted by the lack of tourism.
I mean, many of the places where we partner, they rely on tourism, and many of our partners have stores that is another revenue stream for them, that the stores have completely shut down and have not been a revenue stream for them. So, I am grappling right now. Right now is the hard time for you to be asking me that question. Because I do feel like we're in this – in my head, I'm just imagining a pruning, like there's pruning. And I'm just like, okay, but with pruning, you prune in order to grow and sprout new growth. I do find myself just wanting to look God in the eyes and say, “Okay, I'm secure, I'm connected, and I want to imagine the possibility and the flourishing that you will continue to have for us.” But you know, we're running a business. So, we have to make really wise financial decisions and cut back in certain areas of the business that we didn't think we would need to cut back on.
It's a really challenging time. It's not nothing. We do the SWOT analysis, where you are like, coming up with, okay, what are the potential threats in the business? Global pandemic just never really came up in one of those executive offsites. So yeah, but we're getting through. And we have an amazing core of women that is just on mission and on purpose, and are continuing to just gather where they can and continue to spread the word about how to become a Noonday Collection ambassador.
It's been amazing. I mean, it's so powerful, because when you meet any Noonday Collection ambassador, even people who have gathered for Noonday, what we call Noonday hostesses, they're just such avid fans of the brand, and really just talk about how it’s connected them to the world and even connected them to their purpose and even given them job skills that enables them to go on to other jobs out there. So, I have a lot of pride in our community, and on what this opportunity is done for so many of the people that have been able to partake in it.
[00:34:06] JR: You should. Well, I'm excited to talk again, in a year or two.
[00:34:10] JH: Yes. Aren't we all? Let’s just fast forward.
[00:34:16] JR: Do the follow-up episodes. Fast forward. So, Jessica, this show’s really about two things. We've already talked about the first. How does the gospel shape what we do, how we do it, why we do it? But it's also about, if we believe our work matters deeply to God's redemptive purposes in the world, we should care about doing it really well, and how do we do it really well. So, for you, I think you're a world class founder. I'm curious what you think great founders do that their less masterful counterparts don't do. What's the delta between good and great?
[00:34:51] JH: I do think it has to do with care and caring for people's care and treating people with dignity and respect. We have a stakeholder model at Noonday Collection, not a shareholder model where we have linked prosperity and everyone's success. We're reliant upon one another. In hard times, we all suffer. And in good times, we all feel like we're in that together as well. I truly think, do you really care about your people? Are you really creating an environment for humans to be human?
I was talking about that earlier in relation to the developing world. But certainly, there's a lot – we’ve even become more human in the last two years in the way we've interacted with people in that, you never thought you'd be sitting on a call with your CEO and their cat jumps in their lap on Zoom. I think that all helps. We've walked through grief together. We’ve walked through schooling decisions together, racism. There's just been so many things that we have sussed out together, and I think that true leaders really do have a compassionate care for the people that are in their sphere of influence.
[00:36:15] JR: Yeah, I agree. Practically, how have you guys linked, as you say, linked the prosperity of all the stakeholders of Noonday?
[00:36:24] JH: Well, I mean, even at the beginning, when so many people who are buyers, were pulling out of orders. With artisan partners, you know, we committed to staying the course with them, and we committed to pre-buying certain raw materials. So, we really do partner with them in how they run their businesses. It's as simple of a thing as doing surveys where you are continually asking for feedback. I think feedback is really, really important and really creating a space where people's ideas are heard and implemented, and where feedback is taken really seriously.
This whole business would not have continued if it wasn't linked to, I think, Jolly and Daniel, my original artisan partners in Uganda and their success. I went back and visited them. I've gone several times over the years, but I remember taking Jack to meet them for the first time. I just remember saying thank you, because if you wouldn't have had beautiful product for me to sell, then I wouldn't have Jack and he’s my son. They're saying thank you to me, and I feel that so much we take ambassadors around the world, we have not been able to do that in two years. But we take hundreds of women around the world to actually meet these artisans. And that is where you really see that stakeholder model take root, is when a mom thanks another mom for, “Hey, because you're making these beautiful things, I'm able to send my kid, to get him extra tutoring help.” And then the artisan is able to say, “Well, thanks to you selling this, I'm able to send my child to school.” So, there is this idea of linked success.
[00:38:15] JR: Yeah. I love that so much. Hey, we talk a little bit on the podcast about daily habits and routines. And I heard you, I think it was the keynote you gave at the Praxis event where both at. You were talking about why so many of us fear the routine of silence and solitude and make a space to be quiet. If I'm remembering correctly, you're basically saying we're afraid of what we might find in that silence. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:38:42] JH: Yeah, I think especially if you have an entrepreneurial bent, or you're just kind of a high capacity, highly productive person, we like to be on the move. Sometimes we are chronically anxious and, on the move, because we're in fact hiding from some of the scarier feelings that we don't want to feel like, grief, or sadness and pain. I think that it's when we can get silent and can lean into some of these harder spaces and where we can get healed, then we can operate more from our whole selves instead of being busy and productive and chasing after this dream of success in this anxious way. But instead from a very grounded place, be able to approach our work from really being faithful to what God's called us to do.
Yeah, I've definitely embraced the practice of silence and solitude. And even just my prayer life is a lot more quiet than it used to be where –
[00:38:42] JR: Talk about that.
[00:39:49] JH: Yeah, I heard a definition of prayer, Ronald Rolheiser. He says that “Prayer is relaxing into the goodness of God” and I just love that that’s God’s invitation to us is literally to take off our burdens, to cast our anxiety, come to me all you who are weary, and He's constantly just beckoning us to come and lean into Him. That truly is His delight when we do that. So, my prayers, and a lot of times are just casting my cares onto God and letting myself feel felt by God and getting to that place of relaxing into who He is. I'm not doing it the best this week. But that's my goal. This week, I’m a little wrapped. I’m convicted as I'm sharing this.
[00:40:51] JR: I do this all the time.
[00:40:52] JH: God’s like, “Yes, you are preaching to yourself sis.”
[00:40:56] JR: Well, let me ask you this. I love that definition of prayer, relaxing into the goodness of God. But I could use those same words to define Sabbath. Do you and your family observe Sabbath? And if so, would you agree with my borrowing of those words as a definition for Sabbath?
[00:41:13] JH: Yes. I think that Sabbath is – I think it's the most essential practice for us right now, as believers. And it is saving me which is just the opposite of what you think. You think, I can't take a break, I can't rest. I'm even Sabbathing even in the evenings, we put up a hammock in the front yard and just laying in the hammock and rocking back and forth for 20 minutes, while my phone's inside and looking up at the sky and planting my feet on the ground.
So yeah, my husband and I are big believers in Sabbath. These are long discussions between us. But I will tell you that out of this discussion of Sabbath, we actually became members of a Boat Club here in Austin, which you guys will have to go check out if you have a local lake that has a Boat Club, but basically you don't own the boat, which that does not sound Sabbathy, right? To actually own a boat.
[00:42:13] JR: No, definitely not.
[00:42:15] JH: Yeah, so you pay a monthly fee. And then you get to reserve a boat from this fleet of boats. Part of us choosing Sabbath was saying my husband, he is super productive in our home, and it is hard for him to sit still when we're at our house. So, I was like, “Well, I want to Sabbath but you're always like, “Let's get this done and let's get that done”.” There's just something about being out in nature and being stuck on a boat where you can't get anything else done. So, one of our ways to practice Sabbath is to play on the weekend, and we go out on the lake and it's only about four hours at a time. But yeah, there is, I believe, a discipline right now, in rest and play and celebration, that I'm just doing it. I'm doing it as a discipline. And I think it really matters. I think it really matters for our kids.
I have teenagers, and there are sports and homework and a lot of stress that comes along with all of those things. We're doing a hard Sabbath this weekend, a longer weekend away, and we're getting off phones and getting into nature. I think that, yes, that is such a beautiful invitation. I just love that on the first day of humanity, of Adam and Eve’s lives, the first day was the rest day. It's like God created man and woman and then he's like, “And now we rest.”
[00:43:53] JR: And now we rest together. I love that. It took me a long time to make this mental transition of, you know, growing up just viewing Sabbath as this legalistic chore, to viewing it as this day filled with good things from the Father that I could enjoy as His child, right? I love how Kevin DeYoung puts it. He calls Sabbath “an island of get to, in a sea of have to.” I think he’s precisely right. It's like, no, it's a day to just enjoy being a child, being content just enjoying the Father's presence and knowing that you are seen and you're loved when you are not doing anything. When you're not doing anything productive towards his aims in the world. I love it so much and thank you for holding that out as an example for us. I love the boat club idea. It’s a great idea.
[00:44:44] JH: Yeah, go join a boat club.
[00:44:44] JR: All right, Jessica, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you tend to recommend or gift most frequently to others?
[00:44:54] JH: Well, gosh, gifting. That is a tough one, but I'm just -- not to bring up Curt Thompson again.
[00:44:59] JR: Please, I love Curt.
[00:45:02] JH: He for sure is my most gifted book and he actually just launched a new book called The Soul of Desire, which is all about discovering the neuroscience of longing, beauty, and community, and it's truly coming at just the most perfect time, because it's all about creating out of grief. I love his work and the soul of shame and anatomy of the soul. I really like John Mark Comer. He also just released a book.
[00:45:31] JR: Yeah. We just had him on to talk about it. It’s great. Live No Lies.
[00:45:33] JH: Live No Lies, yes. So, that book we've read as a family and those are kind of my two. Andy Crouch. I mean, it's the people that I've kind of come to know and love that I love his book, I’m Strong and Weak, is a really short read that just so succinctly summarizes our calling as Christians and those are the few that are coming to mind right now.
[00:46:01] JR: I love Strong and Weak. You guys can find all those books, Jessica’s of course, at jordanraynor.com/bookshelf. Okay, Jessica, who do you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences their work? Maybe somebody you've had on your own podcast, Going Scared.
[00:46:15] JH: I mean, it doesn't get better than Andy, when you're talking about this, Andy Crouch.
[00:46:20] JR: Yeah, he's the best.
[00:46:21] JH: He just does such a good job of speaking to that.
[00:46:27] JR: I love Strong and Weak, the culture makings my favorite in the Andy canon. Jessica, one thing from today's conversation you want to reiterate or highlight for our listeners before we sign off?
[00:46:41] JH: Yeah, I mean, I'd love to just go back to that place where what you think might be your ending right now, is probably your beginning. If you're feeling that sense of being cornered, look up, and God does invite us into a future of possibility and creating beauty with Him, and He longs for us to create beauty with Him.
[00:47:04] JR: Very, very well said. Hey, Jessica, I want to commend you, just for the eternally significant, redemptive work you do every day. Thank you for creating dignified work for some of the least of these around the world, for modeling God's heart for orphans. I just love your work. Guys, you can learn more about Jessica and noondaycollection.com or jessicahonegger.com. Make sure you get her book, Imperfect Courage. Go listen to her podcast, Going Scared. Jessica, Thanks again for hanging out.
[00:47:33] JH: Thanks, Jordan.
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[00:47:35] JR: Man, I loved that episode. I hope you guys did too. If you get a second, take 30 seconds right now and go leave a review of The Call to Mastery if you're enjoying this content so that we can get this content in the hands of a lot more people, a lot more Christ followers, who understand that their work matters deeply to God and His redemptive purposes in the world. Thank you, guys, for listening. I'll see you next week.
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