Feeling stuck professionally? This episode will help!
How to get unstuck professionally by mining the depths of Scripture, why comparison is a thief of joy AND a helpful teacher, and how to replace the world’s call to “confidence” with the biblical call to “courage.”
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[0:00:04] JR: Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of Mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as special forces officers, railroad conductors, and school guidance counselors. That's the question we explore every week. Today I'm posing it to Jennifer Allwood, a super talented painter, turned entrepreneur, turned coach to other Christian entrepreneurs.
Jennifer and I recently sat down to talk about how to get unstuck professionally by minding the depths of Scripture. We talked about why comparison is, yes, a thief of joy, but also a helpful teacher for those looking to get unstuck. Finally, we talked about how to replace the world's call to be confident with the biblical call to have courage and what the difference is between those things. I think you guys are going to thoroughly enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Jennifer Allwood.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:12] JR: Jennifer Allwood, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.
[0:01:14] JA: Jordan, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited. Honored to be here.
[0:01:17] JA: Yeah. I had so much fun on your show recently, so this is like a –
[0:01:20] JA: I know, that was so much fun. Thank you. It's fun that we can like piggyback off each other on each other's program.
[0:01:25] JR: I love it. Hey, you spend a lot of time helping Christian professionals, Mere Christians in the parlance of this podcast, get unstuck. How can the Mere Christians listening know if they're stuck in the work God created them to do? What are the symptoms of being stuck?
[0:01:41] JA: Well, I think this is what I like to say. You just know when you're nowhere, Jordan. It's like when you ask a woman who has children or maybe she's never had children, you say, “Are you done having kids?” Like most women know? If they're like, “I'm not sure.” Then you know that you're not. You know what I'm saying? So, when it comes to like being stuck, I think that that's a hard question to maybe quantify the exact answer, because there can be so many things that happen, right? Like one, you can feel really unfulfilled. Two, you can feel really like, just spiritually like unease, like a desire for something more, but I think it can look different.
Getting stuck can look different for so many people. You can know that like you're made for this. You can know that you want more, but is it okay? You can know that maybe you're not setting the exact example for your children that you want to be. I think it can like manifest itself in many different ways, but I think most people know they just instinctively know whether or not they feel stuck.
[0:02:31] JR: Yeah. There's undoubtedly a myriad of symptoms of being stuck. Also, a myriad of different reasons why people get stuck. I'm particularly interested in the reasons that you think are unique or especially acute for Christ followers. What keeps Christians specifically feeling stuck professionally?
[0:02:51] JA: Okay. Since I deal with mostly professional women in my business. I get to coach women on how to grow their small businesses online. If we're talking about them, a lot of times Christian women will come to me and there's an internal rub. They want more. They're not sure if they should feel guilty about that. They want to make more money, but they're not sure if that's biblical. Their heart is really for Jesus. So, their heart for Jesus and they're wondering if the emotions that they're feeling or the desires that they're having or the dreams that they have, like are those in alignment?
The majority of the time, Jordan, I find that women, like our hearts desire is really to be in a position of, “Lord, I want to serve you. I want to make sure that I'm making decisions that line up with your word. I want to make sure that I'm doing what you want me to do.” What we're hopeful that happens is we're hopeful that there's this megaphone from heaven that could, of course happen, but 99.9% of the time is not going to with specific instructions on doing one, two and three in your life or your business or what have you.
When we don't get that, then a lot of times we go into a waiting season and we think, “Well, if I just pray hard enough, if I sit long enough, if I ask God to show something to me long enough, then I'll get some direction on what way to go.” Because momentum really is the way out of getting stuck or out of being stuck. But we get in this position where we're like, “Lord, I'm waiting on you. I'm not going to do anything until I hear from you.” It's in that weight. A lot of times we also, we also get almost stuck even more. It's like spiritual quicksand. So, our heart’s position is correct, but we're not doing anything. So, we're fasting, we're praying, or whatever. Then we're just getting stuck even harder.
Then that creates this real rub, I think, especially inside of women where we're like, “Lord, I'll do whatever it is that you want me to do. I just need to know what that is.” I think so often if women would just be willing, men or women, either one, I coach mostly women. That's why I speak to them, but if you'd be willing just to step out in faith and start taking some little tiny steps in the direction of the thing, or the purpose, or whatever that you think God, maybe, but you're not really sure be calling you to do.
Understanding and believing that, you know what? I serve a God that is so big that if I am an absolute knucklehead, Jordan, and I'm going off to the right and God actually wanted me to go to the left. I'm over here offering a course on how to cut hair, but God really wanted me to do a monthly membership group on dog walking, like we serve a God big enough who's able to stop the bus, shift it, pivot it, and get you going back in the direction that you need to be going in. I think that would be so helpful, because I think it's so often, we have a heart to do what's right, but in just sitting and doing nothing and making no steps in any direction, we're actually even getting stuck even further.
[0:05:20] JR: Yeah. That's good. It's the perennial. What is God's will for my life question. One of the best books I read in 2023 was, The Will of God as a Way of Life, which is recommended by a past guest here, Dave Evans, a Co-Founder of EA Sports. The gist of the book is basically, hey, if you're seeking the kingdom of heaven, first, whatever you choose becomes God's will. Because whether you go path A or path B, his purposes will not be thwarted. Never. Right? We have so much freedom to just go out and make decisions and get out of that quicksand of feeling stuck. All right. We've started to get into the how to get unstuck, right. This is part of it. Just like make a choice, but –
[0:06:00] JA: Can we go back to that for just one second?
[0:06:01] JR: Yeah.
[0:06:02] JA: Because I have some thoughts even that I'd love to share with you even just a little bit further, because –
[0:06:06] JR: Yeah, please.
[0:06:07] JA: One of the things that I tell women is that when you are trying to decide between A or B, or you're trying to figure out which direction to go or what to do, I think it's such a valuable prayer to say, “Lord.” It's biblical. “Will you close the doors so tight that I'm not meant to walk through that no man can open them? Will you swing wide open the doors so wide that no man can shut them.” Because that's really helpful in being like, “Hey, Lord, I'm going to start in this direction, but please, like direct my steps.” So, I think that's super valuable.
Another thing that I think is super valuable. This is one of the things that I share with my children all the time. I've got, I think we talked about this on my podcast. We've got four kiddos. They are 22 this week, 20, 16 and nine. So, we've got a big wide gap there. We're constantly telling our children, though like, “Look, we don't serve a God of just rules, so that we can have fun, but we do serve a God that offers us a play box.” Literally, like a sandbox. It's like if you stay inside of these boundaries, like have all the fun you want. This is though where you're going to have protection, and favor, and all good things, right? You get outside of that box and then things can get a little wonky.
When you're trying to make decisions for your life, the majority of the time, those decisions are still inside of that box, right? It's not like we're trying to decide upon something that's clearly outside of the will of God and very unholy, dangerous, etc. It's literally between two things that I think sometimes God's like, “You know what, Jen? I don't care if you do this or that. I'm going to go with you, whichever direction you prefer and you choose.” I think sometimes we forget that we serve a God who allows us to make so many of our own decisions. Sometimes I wonder if we overcomplicate life and the gospel.
[0:07:40] JR: I agree. Frequently, do this. Yes.
[0:07:43] JA: Because we're like, “I don't know, God. I don't know. I'm waiting on you.” God's like, “Well, I'm just waiting on you, sis, like make a decision and I'm there either direction, either one is fine with me.” I have to remember, and I know I told you this on my podcast that if I try to remember God as God the Father, like in the position of parent. It helps me to understand his goodness so much more, because I know, like when I look at my kids, I have a child in college, for instance. If he had said, “Mom, Dad, I'm thinking about this one or this one.” We would have been like, “Well, either one's good. We don't care. What do you want, honey? What is your heart saying? What is your passion? What are you feeling like? We're going to support you either direction.”
I think so often God does that same thing with us. He's like, “Jordan, I don't care. Write this before. Write that one. Either way, I'm with you.” Either way, it's blessed and favored in all of the things and I think if we would maybe keep that in mind, it would help us to make decisions easier and to get unstuck if we have become stuck.
[0:08:33] JR: Yeah. It's good. I really enjoyed your book, Get Unstuck and Stay Unstuck. You said, “When I am at my most stuck, it helps me to go back to my Bible and remind myself of who God says I am.” Then you get this great list of who God says we are, but what you just said is the primary one. Your beloved child, through Christ, you're an adopted child of God. From that position of belovedness, I think we could start to see the freedom God has given us as his children to just go choose anything in the sandbox to do for his glory in the good of others and our joy. Amen.
[0:09:06] JA: Amen. What happens when we don't choose and we get into that position of being stuck because we are never an island in the stream, and unless we're Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton? We're never just like –
[0:09:17] JR: Kenny Rogers’ reference. Man, put that on the bingo sheet, you all. That was great.
[0:09:21] JA: We're never islands in the street. There's always like as believers, there's always a ripple effect. if I get stuck, for instance, and mom is not living up to her ability, mom's not making decisions, mom's not like doing the things that I know maybe God's calling me to do, or I'm just not feeling, like I'm being useful, etc. So, instinctively, the people in my household, they will inevitably feel that. You know what I mean? Because it's like it affects every area of your life when you're feeling so stuck. So, that will rub off on my children. It will rub off on my spouse. They'll be able to sense. Mom's discontent or what have you.
Well, then what happens to is there's so many people that are watching our lives, whether it's on social media, whether it's listening to our podcast, whether it's the neighbors that live next to you that you go to the bus stop with, and there are people just they're observing, right, and a lot of those non-believers. So, instinctively, when you're not having some breakthroughs in your life and you're becoming really stuck, and you're in just that quicksand, other people are definitely being affected by that.
It's never just all about us. There's always like this ripple effect, because I firmly believe, especially, like in the area of business and coaching women, that there are so many women that they literally just need to be able to like do something, try something, close down something, start something, because there are people that are watching you. Often, like the only way they figure out how to like fight their own dragons is by watching you fight yours. I think that it would be so helpful if we also, just keep in mind. It's not just me. If I'm getting stuck, the people around me are getting stuck as well. That for me, because sometimes I have to think of my own motivators, that's a big motivator for me.
[0:11:00] JR: Yeah. Yeah.
[0:11:01] JA: When I think about, I've been in this coaching space online for 10 years now. It's gotten harder, not easier. Social media has gotten harder, not easier. The cost of owning a business has gone up, not down. There are times I'm like, “You know what? I am tired, and I am 52, and I have a lot of kids still.” There are days I think, I don't want to get up and coach women today. I mean, I'm just being completely transparent. But one of the things that gets me out of bed is knowing that, okay, but I also, like there's a dependence on me, not in a bad way, but I have to remember like it's not all just about me.
There's this ripple effect that if I don't get up in the thing, do the thing that I'm supposed to be doing, that I feel like God's calling me to, right now, and maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but if I don't do that, who's going to be losing because I'm not willing to step in today and do what I'm supposed to be doing. That for me is a huge motivator, not out of guilt or manipulation, but just of the like, really deep like, “Oh, gosh. I need to really take this position and this platform and what you've given me, Lord, like really seriously.”
[0:12:03] JR: Yeah. It’s good. That's really good. I love the way that you reframe the way that others think about us in this specific instance. But also, on the issue of comparison. I thought this was really interesting in the book. You talk about the comparison trap. I wrote a devotional series last year for The Word Before Work Podcast, separate podcast on biblical ways to escape the comparison trap, because as you say in your own book, comparison is a, “thief of joy.” I love how you pointed out that comparison is also a teacher that can help you get unstuck. Can you explain what you mean by that?
[0:12:37] JA: Well, I think, like, so this is super interesting. Almost two years ago, I decided one day, Jordan, I woke up and I thought, you know what I need? I need to become a life coach. I've been a business coach for 10 years, eight or nine years at that point. I thought to myself. I want to get actually, licensed as a life coach, because first of all, I don't think that there's enough Christian life coaches, number one. I knew that what I was doing in my business coaching was life coaching a lot of time, because I can't help a woman, like build her bank account and build her business if she still has things like in her heart, where she's scared to make money and she's not even okay with working or what have you.
A lot of times I need to address life things before we can even do the business thing. I actually got my life coaching certification and named that program. I was doing a life coaching group for a while. It was called, Reframed. I love that you just see me reframe some things, because I think, that's my way of dealing with the fact that otherwise, I can just really get in my head. I have to sometimes convince myself to look at things differently. So, for me, if I'm looking at comparison and I'm thinking, “Man, that girl in terms of a measuring stick, she is killing it.”
I am absolutely, looking ridiculous over here. She's younger, and she's gone further already, and she's been at this less time. So, then what that ends up doing inevitably, is I just feel worse about myself. I perform worse. It is a thief of joy. I obviously, didn't make that statement up somebody else way smarter than I did, but instead, if I will flip that and I'll be like, “Okay, what actually did she do?” Let me look and just – as an observer, like why has she gotten so far ahead of me, as if it's a contest and a race, which it is not, but like, what did she do?
Also, what can I learn from that? What can I take from her story and not try to do things the way she did, but what did she do differently? Not from a tactical point, but did she see an opening in the market that I didn't? Did she try something that I've never had the guts to try, etc. What I also try to remind myself when it comes to comparison is that comparison basically insinuates that we are in a race against one another. I think especially a lot of times for women, we think, “Okay, she's further ahead. So, that means I'm behind.” Then I wonder who I'm in front of. Then there's people – it's like this, we kind of line each other up mentally, which is never going to take us to a good place. Never going to take us to a good place.
[0:14:48] JR: Totally, unbiblical.
[0:14:49] JA: Yes. Absolutely. I even think the same thing from a strategic standpoint, when I have women that are in my coaching groups. A lot of times, Jordan, they'll say things to me like, I'm just so behind on, so behind in your content. So behind. I'm like, “Wait, wait, wait, like so behind means this is a race and there is no race.” Like, go at whatever pace you need to, we’re not at a race with anybody. So, if I'll try to look at somebody that is “competitor” and really notice, what is she doing really well?
Also, maybe where do I see some points that she's not doing well and is there an opportunity for me there? That just helps me to get out of that comparison trap that will inevitably just make me want to eat, like raw chocolate chip cookie dough and take a nap versus get up, pull up my pants and do the things that God's asking me to do.
[0:15:32] JR: It's good. It's really good. I think my favorite part of your book is where you pointed out that once we get unstuck, right, get clear on what we think God is calling us to do or just make a decision to pick a path. You said, “You don't need to feel confident to do it. You may not feel qualified, but you could be confident in the one who did the asking.” Amen. Say more, please. Riff off of this and preach –
[0:15:55] JA: I heard the word confidence and I just instinctively throw up in my mouth a little bit, because –
[0:15:59] JR: Yeah. I do, too. Look at Paul's letters, right? Paul was boasting in all of his weaknesses. Everything the world doesn't hide.
[0:16:06] JA: Yeah. What's interesting to me is you're talking to me a lot about book number two, which I forget I even have book number two. Can I just say that out loud?
[0:16:13] JR: Yeah. You can. Same place.
[0:16:14] JA: Because my big group was – of you and Get Unstuck and Stay Unstock was the follow up to that. It's like a coffee table book, but I have a full chapter in Fear Is Not the Boss of You, about the difference between confidence and courage, because I think especially in America, we are being sold the lie and you can't go to a grocery store and not look at the magazines that are sitting right there and not see this. The lie is that you have to feel and be confident before you do. That's the lie.
When you're confident, then this is going to happen. When you're whatever, and it's like leading with confidence and that is like so backwards. Again, God often shows me things like in perspective to parenting, because, like if we were to look at one of our four children, the first time we took them outside, my husband and I tried to teach them to ride a bike, for example. They're not confident about riding a bike. They've never ridden a bike before. There's no part of me that as a good mother that would stand there and say, “Ava Grace, I cannot believe that you're nervous about this. You just need to get on there and like be confident, like get it together. You should be confident.” Like, it doesn't even make sense.
What happens then is women, especially the way when I'm coaching, they're coming into business. They're launching a course for the first time, or coaching, or whatever. They're thinking, okay, as soon as I feel confident, then I'm going to go ahead and do the thing. Well, how can you ever like feel a certain way other than, oh, my gosh. I hope this works, or I don't know, or what have you when it's the first time that you do something? There's nobody that feels confident the first time they do something.
The lie is that as soon as your feelings line up, then you're going to be good to go. The truth of the matter is, is our feelings are liars. The majority of the time my feelings lie to me, Jordan, that that's no lie. I have to – it's no lie that my feelings lie to me. I have to constantly remind myself like, don't believe that, Jen. I don't think that, Jen, I know you want to feel like irritated right now. Don't do that. I know that you're feeling left out. You're feeling lesser than, you're feeling whatever, like if I listened to my feelings, emotionally, I would be just an absolute basket case. I'm constantly having to remind myself, my feelings are liars, the majority of time. It's not confidence that should be my goal. It's always courage.
[0:18:19] JR: How does the gospel produce that type of courage in you at work? How does it help you stay on the right side of that confidence courage gap? Because there's a big difference between these two things.
[0:18:27] JA: There is, but one leads to the other, because I think that so often, if you will just be courageous enough to do the thing, sometimes you will actually end up, the confidence will follow. Not all the time. One of the things, and let me give you an example. One of the things I wrote about in Fear is Not the Boss of You is how when I was 39, I went to a triathlon with a girlfriend of mine. She wanted me to go watch a friend of hers and I don't consider myself an athlete. I played sports in high school, but at that point, I was 39, three kids, ate a lot of mashed potatoes, etc.
We go watch this triathlon, and I'm seeing, and I won't tell the whole story, but there's this woman that's obviously in her late 70s, early 80s that competes in the triathlon. I'm watching this woman get out of the lake, Jordan, and I'm thinking, “Oh, my gosh. I really need to get my life together.” She was amazing. I'm crying, watching this woman who's obviously, well past my age, double my age, finish a triathlon, and it was so inspiring. I thought to myself, “You know what I'm going to do? I turn 40 next summer, on the same weekend that this triathlon is every single year. I'm going to sign up for a triathlon. That's what I'm going to do.”
Then my next thought was, “Oh, shoot. I forgot, I can't swim.” When I was 39, I hired somebody, a swim instructor, to teach me how to swim for the first time in my life. I had never been able to even put my face underwater without choking. I spent six months with a swim instructor. Then for my 40th birthday, was going to do my first triathlon. It was a really cool thing.
Today Show, back when Matt Lauer’s on there, they sent out a crew to interview me on Women Turning 40 in a different way, and I was in spandex on national television. It was a whole thing. I'm all excited and great and the triathlon starts, and I had a panic attack in the lake. I had to rest on a boogie board and try to get my life together and finish the triathlon and immediately, signed up for another one. I had a panic attack on that one, Jordan. I kept telling myself, “Okay. The next one, I'm not going to have a panic attack. I'm going to get the confidence that I need in the water that I'm not going to die and I'll be fine.”
Well, I ended up doing 10 triathlons in a six-year period. I had a panic attack in every single one of them, and including the one where I was not in the lake. I was in a swimming pool and still had a panic attack. What I'm trying to say is, I was courageous enough to sign up. I kept hoping that I would become a confident swimmer, and I never actually did. It wasn't really about the confidence to do that. It was really just being courageous enough to do the thing I felt like God was asking me to do. That has showed up in my business over and over, because I remember the time thinking, “Lord, what you’re doing here? We've got a lot of kids. It feels like a whole lot that you're asking me to do a triathlon.” It was just a gut feeling. It wasn't an audible voice from heaven. I ended up doing 10 of them, and wondering why. It's such a random thing for a non-athlete.
What I learned through that experience, one of the many lessons that God gave me is that my feelings are just not always going to line up like I want them to. But a lot of times, God's just asking us to step out in faith, and that includes me and my business a lot of times. Whether it's offering a new program, whether it's when I first started to really prophesy to women in my coaching group. I can remember the day it happened. I can remember the first day I asked a woman in my group, “Hey, can I pray for you?” We were in a meeting. I had 2,300 women in this group that I paid coaching group. I felt the like Holy Spirit said, “You need to ask this woman if you can pray for her.” I was like, “Oh, geez. What are we doing here, Lord? This is a hard right turn.”
There was no confidence that that was going to go okay. There was nothing other than, can I be courageous enough to do what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing right this second? Then just see what God does with that. Over and over, He has proven Himself so faithful. If I will just forget about how I feel and forget being confident and just focus on being courageous on His path.
[0:21:52] JR: It's good. It's really good. I love it. Jennifer, three questions we wrap up every episode with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending, or gifting most frequently to others? If we pulled open your Amazon order history, what book is showing up over and over again?
[0:22:07] JA: Okay. Well, and I thought about this. I knew you were going to ask me this, because I know you ask people this. The answer is really not very sexy, honestly.
[0:22:13] JR: Okay. It’s great.
[0:22:14] JA: A lot of times, I'll send women my book, because it really is about getting unstuck. Not the second one, but the first one. Fear is Not the Boss of You. A lot of times, in my DMs and I'll know women that that could be really helpful to them. I'm not for book sales, but just because I know it will be helpful. The book that I actually recommend the most is called Crash the Chatterbox by Pastor Steven Furtick. It's probably a good 12 to 15-years-old. But it was so life changing for me.
The first time that I read that, my husband got it for me for a Christmas gift years and years ago. It basically just goes through this – the chatterbox is that voice we all have in our head that says, you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you're never going to get any better than this. You're never going to outgrow your home town. You're never going to be able to make any money. That's the chatterbox. That book absolutely changed my life.
[0:22:57] JR: It's good. I like it. Who do you want to hear in this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work they do in the world?
[0:23:02] JA: Have you had Ed Mylett on this podcast?
[0:23:04] JR: No.
[0:23:04] JA: Okay. Ed is in the business space, same space that I am. He's a business coach, with a way larger platform than I have. He has a huge following, a hugely successful business. But I listen to him and I'm like, he is such a marketplace minister, because he's unapologetic about his Christian faith. He does not lead with that at all, but yet, he's putting it out there and in his own conversations, like on his podcast to people. I'm like, “Oh, that was good. That was really good. The way he said that to a person that I know is not a Christ follower.” He's just so good at that. I would love to hear him on your podcast. I think he’d be a great guest.
[0:23:38] JR: It’s good. Hey, Jennifer, before we sign off, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians, very diverse vocationally, some of them entrepreneurs, some of them doctors, and some of them mechanics. What's one thing you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?
[0:23:50] JA: Let's go back to what we already talked about, which was just that I think, feeling confident about things should never be our goal. But being courageous, I think, just produces such better fruit. Especially if you're someone who is stuck, the number one, first thing that you can do to get unstuck is there has to be a disruptor of some sort. If you almost picture, Jordan, did you ever when you were little, I think you're way younger than me, but did you ever put a card on the wheel of your bicycle?
[0:24:16] JR: I did not. I did not.
[0:24:17] JA: You did not?
[0:24:18] JR: I am a good bit younger. Yeah. No.
[0:24:20] JA: Come on. Okay. It's 52, I’m a lot older. Anyway, we would take a close pin and we would close pin a card into the spokes of our bicycle and it's just, it's like a disruptor. It comes in and it makes a noise and just disrupts the way the tire is supposed to go. If you're someone who's on a spiral, a feeling stuck in life, whether it's in business, whether it's personally, whether it's in your walk with the Lord, having something come in and disrupt that, that is the biggest thing, the first thing that you could do in order to get out of that season of feeling like, there has to be something more and you just feel so stuck.
Some sort of forward momentum, do something to disrupt that. Make some decision today. One thing today, one small decision that can then lead you into bigger ones that'll help to get you unstuck.
[0:25:00] JR: Our courage, I would argue, is rooted in Romans 8:38. I'm convinced that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor demons, nor the present, nor the future, nor any powers, neither height, nor death, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord, right? We have courage to move and get unstuck and move forward and persevere in the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do.
Jennifer, I want to commend you for the great work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for helping us get unstuck, by leading us back to our Heavenly Father and the source of all wisdom and truth. Guys, Jennifer is the author of some great books, including Get Unstuck and Stay Unstuck. What's the book I see competing with Called to Create all the time on Amazon?
[0:25:47] JA: It’s Fear is Not the Boss of You.
[0:25:49] JR: Fear is Not the Boss of You. I love it. Jennifer, thank you for hanging with us today.
[0:25:52] JA: Jordan, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:25:56] JR: Hey, if you’re loving the Mere Christians Podcast, do me a favor and take 30 seconds to go write a review of the podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to the show. We read every single one of those reviews, and our entire team does. They're a massive encouragement to us to continue doing that work. They also help other mere Christians find this content, so thank you in advance for doing that.
Hey, guys. I so appreciate and do not take for granted that you show up week after week to listen to the show. Thank you for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
[END]