Dream bigger about your work with God in 2025
How Christian guilt about dreaming actually blocks intimacy with God, how Graham’s “50 Dreams” exercise can help you clarify which dreams are from God, and 3 practical things Graham does to work with the Holy Spirit.
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[0:00:05.4] JR: Hey friend, Happy New Year, and welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast, I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren’t pastors or religious professionals but who work as researchers, bank tellers, and graphic designers? That’s the question we explore every week, and today, I’m posing it to my very, very good friend, Graham Cochrane.
He is a wildly successful entrepreneur, TED X speaker, and bestselling author of How to Get Paid for What You Know, and Rebel: Find Yourself by Not Following the Crowd. More importantly, Graham is just a really serious follower of Jesus and has become an excellent friend of mine over these last five years. Graham and I sat down recently to discuss how Christian guilt about dreaming actually blocks intimacy with God.
We talked about how Graham’s 50 Dreams Exercise can help you clarify which dreams are from God and which are not, and finally, we talked about three practical things that Graham does to work with the Holy Spirit in practical ways. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss this terrific conversation with my friend, Graham Cochrane.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:24.5] JR: All right, I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that Graham Cochrane is the first guest to join me thrice on the Mere Christians Podcast. I think technically, you’re a cohost now, welcome back, my friend.
[0:01:37.7] GC: Glad to be cohosting this show with you now.
[0:01:40.6] JR: Hey, we’re releasing this episode on New Year’s Day.
[0:01:42.8] GC: Yeah, Happy New Years.
[0:01:44.1] JR: I’m very curious, we’ve never talked about this, Happy New Year’s to you. Is New Year’s Day a big deal in the Cochrane household? Because it is not in the Raynor household.
[0:01:51.3] GC: You know, it’s so funny. In the Graham side of the Cochrane household, it is a big deal.
[0:01:58.5] JR: Do we need to bring Shay in?
[0:01:59.8] GC: We do, maybe. I love fake newness, which I feel like New Year’s Day is fake, it’s this arbitrary moment in time but I like any excuse to like, this is the year I’m going to change, this is the month I’m going to change, I love new beginnings. I love goal-setting. Shay doesn’t believe in goals. She’s like, “What’s the point? You’re just making something up, it’s arbitrary, if you don’t hit it, you’re going to be disappointed.” So, she thinks it’s a bunch of baloney and I think it’s the most exciting thing ever.
[0:02:25.7] JR: Yeah, I mean, you know me, right? Like, I love goals, I love goal setting but I guess I don’t – man, I think about goals on a quarterly basis. I have my long-term goals, but I don’t set annual goals, I think it’s very much 12-week year kind of mentality.
[0:02:38.8] GC: Oh yeah, I love that, that’s a good book, by the way, great book.
[0:02:41.3] JR: Yeah. So, I don’t know, Jan one is just yeah, it’s a start of a new quarter, I don't know, I don’t get excited about it. I will say this, our best friends, they have this great New Year’s tradition that they’ve brought us in on. Is this on New Year’s Day? No, New Year’s Eve, where they watch all the Star Wars films from front to back.
[0:02:58.2] GC: Oh, I can get behind that.
[0:02:59.8] JR: Starting – oh yeah, it’s great, and then you’re ending the whole series around midnight, I can’t remember exactly how they timed it.
[0:03:07.0] GC: Oh my gosh.
[0:03:07.7] JR: Steal that, borrow that one.
[0:03:08.8] GC: Bro, but again, that’s another thing that will be a hard no for Shay. I would have to send her away to a spa for the weekend, and then me, and Vera, my youngest would do that together, no question.
[0:03:18.2] JR: You and Vera should come hang out with us this year.
[0:03:20.0] GC: Can I join your family?
[0:03:22.0] JR: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Hey, man, so a few months ago, back in September 2024, you hit the bestseller list for your new book, Rebel. Congratulations, man.
[0:03:31.8] GC: Thank you, man.
[0:03:32.3] JR: I know it’s been a goal of yours for a long time. Speaking of goals, what do you think this book can do for the mere Christians listening in 2025?
[0:03:39.9] GC: Oh man, my hope is that it would set them free and cause them to dream again. I think here’s my big take, bro, and in my heart for the Christian community, especially with this book, this book is a personal development book for anybody. There’s a lot of Jesus in it, because that’s kind of how I roll, but it’s fun when I get to talk to Christian communities specifically about this book.
And we took our business leaders at our church in Tampa through an eight-week series based on the book, which is really cool. My pastor is like, “Hey, I would love for you to do a series on it.” And that was fun to see how they’re processing it but my big point here for believers is, man, God has put desires in your heart. Psalm 37:4, delight the Lord and He will give you the desires, that word there in Hebrew can mean to give, I give you a gift, but also can mean to assign. Like, He assigns, like I give chores to my kids or I gave my daughter Chloe her name, Chloe. I assigned it to her.
So, I liked to read that both ways but if you read it as He assigned gifts or desires in our heart, then we should pay attention and I think that our desires are data points. I think dreams in our hearts are data points, it’s the way we’re wired and this is a book about helping you better understand yourself, so you can live out the way God’s called you to live.
[0:04:51.7] JR: I’ve never heard that commentary on that passage but that makes way more sense than God literally giving us the desires of our hearts because, of course, He doesn’t always because our hearts are desperately wicked, right? On the new earth, He will give us the desires of our hearts because our hearts will be free from the curse of sin, right? And they’ll be perfectly in line with His but that’s really interesting. I want to come back to Christian guilt for dreaming in a minute.
[0:05:14.2] GC: Oh, yeah.
[0:05:15.2] JR: Okay, great, you’re excited to double down on that but first, let’s talk about this REBEL framework at a higher level. So, this is an acronym, right? For these five key steps that you see, they’re going to take in order to step into your purpose, talk us through that framework at a high level.
[0:05:30.3] GC: Yeah, so high level, why the word rebel, why the concept rebel, I don't know what comes up for you when you hear the word rebel. Like, we’re talking about Star Wars, I think the Rebel Alliance, you know, a bunch of rag-tag soldiers trying to take down the big bad galactic empire, and then for you think of like James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause like he’s got a red leather jacket. He’s probably smoking a cigarette somewhere, he’s the kind of guy you don’t want your daughters to date, you know?
But what’s interesting is that to me, a rebel, especially you know, some of the definitions in the Cambridge dictionary are just basically disagreeing with the common thinking of the day, wanting to go in a different direction.
[0:06:07.3] JR: Jesus was a rebel. You pointed this out in your book.
[0:06:09.7] GC: Absolutely. Yeah, we list a few rebels in history and He was the most – here’s the thing with rebels, like they disappoint people because they don’t do what you want them to do, what you expect them to do, and they’re not trying to be different to just piss a bunch of people off. They’re trying to be different because they believe there’s a better way and they see things from a different standpoint.
And I think, with rebels in history, whether it’s Jesus or Martin Luther King Junior or Amelia Earhart or Steve Jobs, in the moment, people are like, “Ugh, you’re ruffling feathers. Just be like everybody else.” AKA, conform but like, years removed, we look back and we go, “Wow, these people were brilliant.” They were pushing humanity forward, they were – and so, whether you agree with all of the rebels that I list, and there’s a bunch of others you could come up with, the point is, everything is going one way.
Culture’s going one way at large, do you like the way it’s going? Your micro-culture of your family or your church, I mean, there’s a lot of church cultures that are going away that I don’t like where it’s going. The way we do relationship, the way we handle money, the way we think about career and vocations, this is why I love your content so much as you’re like, “Hey, vocation.” Everyone’s like, incredibly disappointed in their vocation, right?
Like, what is the stat? 70 odd percent of Americans themselves acknowledge that they’re disengaged from work. So, you're like, “That’s not working.” That’s the conformity, that’s the current – it’s like a little river, you put your stick in a little river, that’s you. If you don’t do anything, you're going to go where everyone else is going, it’s going somewhere. Do you like where it’s going?
So, to me, to be a rebel, it’s just to get out of the stream for a second, to look around and say, “Is this the way I want my family to go? Is this the way I want our finances to go? Is this the way I want my work and vocation to go? My spirituality, my health?” Like, these are some of the core areas we talk about in the book, and if not, then where else do I want to go? And no one can tell you what that is.
Like, that’s the problem with this rebel journey that I take people on. It’s not easy. For one reason, we don’t know ourselves very well. So, I walk you through exercises to figure that out. That’s what the REBEL framework is going to do and I will explain what the acronym is but two, it’s not easy because people don’t like when you rebel. Everybody wants you to be like them, keep your head down, don’t be different, even if they don’t know why.
Even if they love you, especially if they love you, they’re going to be offended or confronted by your different decisions and choices and that’s hard.
[0:08:25.1] JR: Yeah. It’s really about intentionality. I think the rebel term can have a lot of selfishness associated with it but I love when you listed out these rebels in the book, you talk about Earhart and Jobs and of course, Jesus Christ. You said, “They weren’t rebels out of selfishness, rather, they were rebels out of creativity and generosity.” And I think that’s really beautiful way to describe people like Dr. King and Earhart. All right, what’s the acronym, what’s the rebel acronym, what does this mean?
[0:08:52.3] GC: Yeah. So, if – you know, my premise is that life is frustrating for a lot of people, a lot of external reasons why but I think a large part of our frustrations are because we’re living out of alignment with our design and we can go back to that sort of Christian guilt and dreaming. I think that’s why we need to figure out who we are, and so to do that and this, like I feel like the Lord helped me in sort of a spiritual download reverse engineer my story because this is not something that like, for 15 years, I’ve been living and knowing that it’s the REBEL framework.
He gave me the idea of REBEL, He gave me the imagery of it, and then He showed me, “This is basically what you’ve done,” without realizing it. So, this is like me, writing this book, bro, is like me discovering what my last 15 years have been like but the REBEL framework is simple. The R stands for “Resolve.” To dream again. You have to start with dreaming because dreams are data points, we can get into that.
The E, that’s the 30,000-foot view of like, “What do I dream about? What do I care about? What do I want, what do I desire to do, be, have?” And we all primarily suck at dreaming, especially Christians, we’ve been – we can go there, we’ve been told to not dream, that’s selfish. So, I would love to have a conversation there if that’s interesting to you but we dream again, resolve to dream again.
Then we E, “Establish” the outcomes we want. This is where we get really intentional about vision casting. What does like the Raynor, you know, the Raynor family want? What is the vision for the Raynor family or for Jordan in particular? Not just all Christians or all Christian authors, or all Christian author podcasters, like you're so uniquely wired. Where are you going? Uniquely, no one can tell you that.
The B is to “Break.” Once you have a vision, you can’t build that vision yet, you have to break negative thoughts, habits, and patterns so we do what I call an inter-story audit, which is really powerful for people. We’re all living narratives and we’re never hearing the true voice of the Lord clearly because it’s a still small voice, it’s hard to hear with the default loud in the narrative.
The second E is to “Engage” in rebellious new thoughts. So, once you’ve got your dreams, you’ve got vision, which is on the ground, you’re breaking negative thoughts, now we can engage in new thinking, in new habits, like living with that intentional new life that we want to live that leads to the outcomes we want.
And then, finally, the L, this is the ironic part of it is you “let go” of the outcomes that you established, and you let go of other people’s opinions. This is the hardest part for me because the outcomes give you a target to shoot for. So, you’re going in the direction that you’re wired to go, not what everyone else is doing but at the end of the day, we know as Christians, we don’t control the outcomes, the timing, the terms, if they even happen.
But you have more freedom when you like, live loosely, and trust God’s perfect timing, and you have clear family or personal values so that when the opinions of others, especially those that love you come in, they don’t derail you because they will derail you of what, “Man, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this.” You need to know what your values are so you keep going in that direction, and that’s like the process-oriented person the whole way. So, it’s messy, it’s not perfect, but that’s where it all ends up.
[0:11:45.4] JR: It’s really good, man. I love the framework and I want to come back to, maybe towards the end, the story of that download that you felt from the Holy Spirit on this framework but let’s go back to dreaming. You and I both want to go here. Let’s dig a little bit deeper here because I do think, in my experience, Christians, more than non-Christians don’t feel free to dream, and I think a lot of that is rooted in something good.
I think it’s rooted in something biblical and the call to be content in all things. What would you say to the believer who is listening today, maybe on New Year’s Day when this episode drops, who doesn’t feel the freedom to dream about what’s next for their family, what’s next for their work, et cetera, et cetera?
[0:12:23.0] GC: Yeah. I would say, first of all, I feel you. You know, my story and I’ve shared it here since I’ve been on this podcast more than Tim Keller. I’m going to say those as many times as possible.
[0:12:31.1] JR: You need to update your bio, yeah.
[0:12:32.9] GC: Yeah. First line in the expert bio, and I’ve shared my story before but the short version of it that’s relevant here is I felt my whole life God gave me a dream. He wired me to be a musician, to be a performer, to be on stages, and I just intuitively felt from a young age I was meant to be on stage and impacting people and I gravitated towards that naturally and had talent and it was fun, and it fueled me.
And then, when I pursued that dream of getting a record deal and it died and I had to choose between the dream and taking care of my new wife, and I chose that, I knew it was the right decision, the responsible decision but the mistake I made was I made a subtle agreement that dreaming isn’t for me, and dreaming actually isn’t for anyone. I almost had to create a worldview to make sense of my circumstances, which is you don’t get what you dream.
To be a good husband, man, Christian, whatever, you need to just get a job, pay your taxes, tithe, be present for your wife, keep your head down until you die. This is why when I found your first book, Called to Create, and I found it through I think one of your reading plans on your version, I just felt so alive. I felt, for the first time that, “Wait a second, wait a second, maybe I’m not crazy.” Because I had –
Here’s my problem bro, if your dream dies, and you feel like God gave you that dream, what do you do? Do you blame God? I mean, you could, and you could turn bitter but I love the Lord enough to know I can’t blame God. So, I’m just going to rewrite the story and say, “No, I was foolish for thinking that you could get what you wanted.” And that was just for kids and so, I basically floated for four years, doing the “right thing” and I was literally taught, Philippians two.
“Don’t do anything out of selfish ambition but put other people’s interests above your own.” And like, I interpreted that to mean like, it doesn’t matter what you want –
[0:14:17.4] JR: Your desires are irrelevant.
[0:14:18.7] GC: They’re irrelevant because it’s just about like evangelism, and it’s about tithing, and it’s about serving the poor, and then you die, and then Jesus says, “Hey, good job man, you gave up on your dreams and you did the right thing.” And then I read your book and others like it, and Tim Keller’s work, Every Good Endeavor. I mean, so many things that just sort of to help me understand, “Wait a second, we’re all wired differently, maybe the dreams got put in my heart weren’t wrong.”
“Maybe, that version of the dream just wasn’t meant to be but it was a giant clue as to the way God wired me.” And I felt like, when I lost my job, and we came to Tampa and I’m on food stamps and I’m like, “What the heck am I doing with my life?” God said, “Hey bro, remember your love for music?” “Yeah?” “Remember your love to impact and encourage people?” “Yeah?” “What if you could use it in a different way?”
Like, I don’t have any other explanation for why I started my business other than the Holy Spirit was leading me through these sorts of random questions like, “What if you tried this? What if you did this?” And all of a sudden, all my desires and my love for recording, my love for music, my love for the Internet, you know, like I was always interested in the Internet. I was an early adopter of YouTube, like I didn’t know what I was doing but I liked all of it.
I put it all together and God turned it into this incredible business that changed my life, and I learned, “Oh my gosh, desires aren’t bad, it’s just I have no idea what God’s plan is but I really need to pay attention to the desires God’s put in my heart of given to me.” Again, in Psalm 37:4 stuff because it’s a clue as to how I’m wired. So, my story is I could empathize if you feel like it’s selfish to dream.
I think it’s selfish to think that your dream is about you ultimately but it starts with you. Like, God has – God doesn’t lead by pushing us. He leads with desire. He puts dreams in people’s hearts for a reason because He wants to gently pull you along, not shove you into something. So, there’s some clue there but if you read the whole book of Rebel and I love how the Lord even gave me the ending to it, it ultimately isn’t about you, it really is about others.
But the only way for you to have the most impact in other people’s lives if you fully – is if you fully show up as who God made you to be, and the only way to figure that out is to tap into your desires and your wants, and your hopes and your dreams, big or small because they just paint a better picture of what – how God wired you. So, if you’re a Christian and you love the Lord, don’t you want to figure out how he made you?
Don’t you want to figure out how the Designer made you, so that you can, in partnership with Him, navigate what your best life could look like?
[0:16:37.5] JR: So good, but how do you know if the dream is given to you by God or given to you by bad sushi, right? Like, what – like, how are you personally, Graham, discerning that?
[0:16:46.2] GC: So, yeah, that’s a great question. So, in the book, like, I walk you through a 50 Dreams exercise.
[0:16:51.6] JR: I’m so glad you brought this up because if you didn’t, I was going to ask you. I love this exercise.
[0:16:55.2] GC: I do too, I hated it the first time I did it years ago because it was impossible for me. It turns out, I’ve learned that there’s two types of people in the world, the people that this exercise is easy for and the people that it’s hard for, and I think the people that it’s easy for, just have more self-awareness, and they have less guilt complex around their desires. It’s just data to them.
[0:17:11.1] JR: Yeah. So, talk through the exercise because I think where it ends is the question of, “How do you know if the dream is given to you by God or not?”
[0:17:17.8] GC: Yeah. So, it’s simple but hard, take out a Google doc or piece of paper and you write down 50 things you want. 50 dreams, big or small. I love Tim Ferris’ question, “If you were the smartest person in the world, and it were impossible to fail, what would you dream of doing, being, or having?” It’s like, if you’re getting stuck, that’s where you could start and it’s like, you know, my list will include, it always included being a bestselling author.
You know, hitting New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The USA Today. It would include owning a beach condo. It would include being able to speak another language fluently, it would include going to Santorini, it would include – so like, for my dad, It would also include like having a personal stylist like I sure would love someone who could just buy my clothes and make sure I always look good.
I don’t want to deal with it, think about it, there’s also certain restaurants. I really want to go to this restaurant, big or small, it doesn’t matter. The point is to brain dump, and what happens, for a lot of us, especially for Christians, not all, but for Christians, and in my experience that I’ve found this is that there’s a few that you're willing to admit, and then there’s a few that you're not willing to admit.
And it’s just weird because it’s like, “Bro, it’s already in your head, God already knows it. No one is going to look at this other than yourself, and it doesn’t mean anything.” It’s just, be honest with yourself and get it down, and the reason why is ultimately, we want to take that list once you get to 50, it took me a week to get to 50 the first time, by the way. You want to get that list of 50 to 10. If you can only have 10 of these come true, what would they be?
And then, the reason you do that is to ultimately ask the final question, which is, “Why do I want this? Why do I want this thing?” So, for example, if I’m like, “I want to own a beach condo one day.” If that made my top 10, the biggest question is, “Why?” Not to justify your desire because I love the book, 10X is Easier Than 2X, the idea that desires aren’t things you justify. They’re not needs, it’s a want.
You don’t need it, so you don’t need to justify it to anybody, it’s just something you want. So, it’s not to justify the thing you want. The “Why” Is so that you better understand yourself. What is it about me, Graham, having a beach condo, what does that tell me about myself? What is it? Well, I really like the ocean, I really like the idea of waking up and I’m already at the beach because I like the beach but not getting to the beach.
You know, I don’t like bringing the stuff, and I don’t like fighting for parking but I like seeing empty space and I like being able to walk, and I get good ideas, and so anyway, you get to just do these stuff that you kind of intuitively know but maybe haven’t ever journaled out about, “Why do I want this? What is it about having this that is meaningful to me?” And that’s really the goal, you’re kind of doing the research of self-discovery.
You’re doing intel, on getting intel on yourself to better understand what fires you up, what you really care about because that dream, whether I have a beach condo or not is not important. What’s important is that there’s something about the ocean and the beach that matters to me and I need to tap into that because it’s going to help me function, it’s going to help me thrive, and there’s probably something in there that ultimately I can use for self-discovery.
[0:20:12.2] JR: So, if I was doing this on my own, this exercise, I would use this not just for self-discovery but for self-gratification and glorification, right? Like, I just know my tendency to chase after things that yeah, I desire but aren’t necessarily truly for my good. So, I’m curious for you, like when you’ve gone through this exercise, have you shared the list with another person as you’re interrogating those top 10 to ask why you want it or is this just you?
[0:20:41.4] GC: I mean, this is just me. I think the advantage the believer has that the unbeliever doesn’t have is the Holy Spirit, and we kind of get into this in the book under the breaking negative thoughts, habits, and patterns section because I feel like knowing what you want, whether it’s good or bad, is one thing but knowing how to operate in the world and make decisions that will ultimately lead to your good and your flourishing is another thing.
We’re just – we’re so limited, and the smartest person just can’t always read the future. So, in the book, I try to posit it as a voice of intuition. I mean, we talk about Elijah, we talk about the still small voice of the Lord, but if you don’t subscribe to that theory, then you’re going to have to make up whatever you want that to be but Christians have the Holy Spirit. The problem is we don’t hear the Holy Spirit because what we hear are the default stories and narratives we tell ourselves.
So, I think, if you can do some of the work of clearing your head and then you’re hearing the Lord a little bit more clearly, a little bit more consistently, that’s going to be the sort of the widowing fork. That’s going to be the filtering process for your desires because what I like about the desires is even if let’s say, 30 of them are selfish and I don't know what that even means, like, is it selfish or bad to want a beach condo?
I don't know, I think it’s kind of a neutral decision but even if they’re all like that, the beautiful thing is God’s not intimidated by our wants or desires, right? He’s a good father that says like, my daughters always wanted snacks at the grocery store or they want a goldfish 24/7 or cookies. I was never upset at them when they would say, “Dad, can I have more goldfish? Dad, can I have more cookies, can I have more donuts?”
It never made me be like, “Why are you so selfish? Don’t you know that’s not healthy for you? That’s not good for you, that’s not my best for you?” I would just smile at them because they’re children, they don’t know what’s best and I would say, “You know, I love you but we’ve had enough goldfish for today, how about we have some…”
[0:22:22.4] JR: A thousand goldfish is too many.
[0:22:23.6] GC: Yeah. It’s too many, we’re going to cut it off there. You know, I was never offended or hurt, or judgmental of them because of their desires but I would just lead them gently, and so I think the Holy Spirit leads us gently when we say, “This is what I think I want.” What’s amazing is part of walking with the Lord is character transformation. I like the idea of writing all your wants down because if you revisit in 12 months, bro if you’ve been walking with the Lord, you probably will look at that list.
And think, “Wow, I don’t know if I really want half of those things anymore.” And there was nothing bad about wanting them a year ago but you kind of learn, “You know what? That car isn’t that important to me anymore.” Or, “That thing I thought I wanted my wife to do or be or, you know, I’ve realized, it’s a “Me” issue, it’s not a “Her” issue.” Like, whatever it could be bro, you’re going to see the character transformation and its sort of data points along the way.
It’s something you thought you wanted but the Holy Spirit is the one that’s been saying, “Hey, of these 50 things, here are the two or three that I think truly will bring you life.” And you're going to hear that still small voice that whisper and that’s the way, obviously, to live in the Christian life is to be in tune with the spirit.
[0:23:23.6] JR: Man, it’s so good, it’s so good. Did you read The Soul of Desire by Curt Thompson?
[0:23:27.5] GC: No.
[0:23:28.2] JR: He talks a lot about this. He’s brilliant, and just talking about like, the Christian guilt associated with desire accuses God subtly of being a really cruel Father who is offended by his children asking for something, even though He tells us over and over again in His word, to ask for the things that are on our heart, right? It is, He might not give those things because He knows what’s best.
This is what Jesus is talking about when He’s in this ask, seek, and knock section, right? But He wants us to ask. He wants us to – He already knows the desires of our heart, we would be foolish not to just admit those, and it’s a blocker to intimacy, I think, with the Lord.
[0:24:07.3] GC: Yes. Oh, so good.
[0:24:09.2] JR: When we’re not transparent about what we want because we’re hiding. We’re hiding something from my heavenly Father, who already knows the thing. Does that make sense?
[0:24:16.6] GC: Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, think about it in terms of – this is so good, think about it in terms of marriage. One of the most unhealthy things you can do in a marriage, and I know because I’ve done this, is to not be honest with your spouse about what’s wanted and needed in that season, and there are differences between wants and needs, and so I think a healthy marriage is when we’re like, “Hey, babe, I really want this or need this from you or in our family or in our life.”
Whether that’s more intimacy or more vacation or, “I need some time just for me,” or to slow down or to speed up or whatever it is. It doesn’t mean that as a couple you’re going to decide to give each other each of the things you want or even the things you need. Maybe you can’t even implement the things you need all in that season but it’s so healthy to confess what is wanted and needed and I love Jamie Winship’s definition of confession, which is just truth-telling.
Just tell the truth of what you think you want and need and then you can sort of go from there but like, it’s such a healthy, and you said it perfectly, intimacy is when you can have confession, truth-telling. An intimacy blocker is when you’re like, “Oh, if I write down that I really want a Lamborghini, God’s going to judge me.” It’s like, well, He already knows and B, He probably thinks Lamborghinis are cool, like what’s wrong with a Lamborghini?
But like, but that doesn’t mean He’s going to give you one or but maybe, He will. That doesn’t matter but like if you like it, that’s awesome. I have friends that are car guys and they love cars. They race cars, they spend money on cars, it’s neither good nor bad but it’d be stupid to just lie about what you really want but let the Holy Spirit show if there’s something there that’s like unhealthy. He’s so tender, right? He’s so like it’s the way Jesus interacted with the sinners.
[0:25:44.2] JR: Gentle and lowly.
[0:25:45.3] GC: Yeah, He would interact with the prostitute like, “Hey, I know you’re a prostitute.” He’s not going to be like, “Bro, I can’t believe you’re a prostitute.” He’s going to say, “Hey, I don’t condemn you. Now, go and sin no more.” It’s this beautiful like no condemnation, let’s just move to health, and that’s I feel like the way the Holy Spirit is when we talk to him about our desires.
[0:26:01.6] JR: It’s good, man. I don’t think I would have predicted that takeaway when we started this conversation of yeah, getting honest about the desires of our heart. What we want to see God do in our work this year is a pathway to deeper intimacy with the Lord. All right, let me ask you this though, how do you personally chase after the dream, go after what’s next, pursue your goals for 2025, and cultivate contentment regardless of the progress?
[0:26:30.8] GC: So, are you reading my mail, bro? Are you reading my journal? Are we trying to expose being on your wonderfully downloaded podcast? I don’t have this figured out, bro.
[0:26:41.7] JR: I don’t either, this is why I’m asking the question.
[0:26:43.8] GC: This is the thing that I have wrestled with for many years and if you look at my journal and my time with the Lord, let’s say all last year all 2024, I think the word that’s going to pop up the most is contentment. It’s the thing that I think the Lord has been trying to invite me into, not force upon me but invite me into to believe that for the I Timothy 6, like godliness with contentment is great gain.
I just don’t think I believe that at a fundamental level. I like it as I want to believe it but I – if I believed it, I would lean into contentment more. I know God has given me ambition and I’ve wrestled with that and I’ve made more peace with that as I listen to like you, as I listen to people like Erwin McManus, as I listen to people that believe that a godly ambition is a great thing. Like the Apostle Paul was very ambitious.
Like, he just like, “Let’s be like – let’s freaking go.” But I know He’s made me ambitious but bro, I really suck at contentment. I’m a futuristic, high-futuristic on the StrengthsFinders, I’m a three, which is the achiever on the angiogram. Whether you care about these things or not, like I always test similarly, which is I am thinking ahead and wanting to. This book, Rebel, all of 2024 is like hit the USA Today bestseller list.
We did it, you know what I did the next day? Like, what’s next, you know? Like, what’s next? And that’s me. So, what the kindness of the Lord has been inviting me into and my journal, shoot, it’s over there on the sofa, I wish I had it right in front of me but what He even told me yesterday was He said like, He literally said something to the fact about I asked Him, “What do I need to know today, Lord?”
And He said, “Bro, this is it, you’ve already won. Just relax and enjoy.” And it was this invitation of, “I know you’re pushing and you want better but you’re not even enjoying the sweetness of what season you’re in, the gifts you already have not because you are ungrateful or aren’t appreciative of it but you’re just so in the future that you miss out on the present and I think He’s trying to show me a better way where you literally can think and plan but reap the rewards now of the sweetness of your season.
I hope that 2025 is the year. If we come back in a year and I’m on your show for the fourth time ever, that will be on my goals for this year on my vision board, be on Jordan’s podcast for a fourth time, if we come back in a year and you say, “How was the year?” And I say, “Bro, I learned to walk in contentment,” it would have been the win of a century because I think what I’m chasing is right there. It’s available to me right there.
What I’m chasing in the next book, in the next launch of my business, in the next season I think is actually available to me right now if I embrace contentment because contentment is the state of and I forget the actual Greek word that’s used for contentment but it really has this beautiful meaning of you don’t need anything else. It’s not that you don’t want anything else, it’s like you’re sufficiently supplied.
Like, you have ample, you have – it’s that state of Psalm 23, right? The Lord is my Shepherd, I don’t need anything else, and that’s what we’re all chasing is that like that. Do you think about the confidence and the peace and the clarity that would come from to have got – I’ve got it made, like who’s got it better than us? Like, nobody, that kind of line. So, that’s what I feel like contentment is offering and I don’t quite have it.
[0:29:49.6] JR: You mentioned Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy’s book, 10x is Easier Than 2x, which I really enjoyed. I think the most helpful concept from the book that they turned into another book, I can’t remember if it’s prior to or after the book, as this gap in the gain concept, right? So, I think most people, Christian or not, tend to measure progress between where I am now and where I want to be.
The gap between where I am, where I want to go, the gap between goal and reality, there’s going to be reality, dream, and reality but if you just simply turn around the other way and measure the gain from where you are today to where God has brought you to up until this point that is a secret. I’m not going to say the secret because I think there’s deeper layers for this for believers but I think it is a secret to cultivating contentment.
Because the gain that we’ve made, we were separated from a Holy God, we were once God’s enemies, right? And through Jesus Christ, we have intimacy with the Father, we are adopted children of God, and so regardless of how much gain you’ve experienced in the goal, you have eternal gain that has been secured through Christ, and so now, I can turn back around and look at the gap between here and there and where I want to go next.
And where I think the Lord is leading me and find great contentment because of how much time I’ve spent focused on the gain that Christ has accomplished on my behalf. Does that make sense?
[0:31:12.4] GC: Yeah, that makes so much sense, and I think it’s interesting, there’s another pressure that’s in our culture, which is I think very relevant to this conversation, which is the pressure of if you have a dream or you have a desire or you have a goal, it has to become a reality now or as soon as possible and there is this, you know, we say FOMO, fear of missing out but there really is this sort of fake narrative of if it’s going to happen, it’s got to happen now.
And I think that leads us into just live so frantic and so stressed and so sad when we see other people advancing faster than us or getting the thing we want and it’s so interesting of how if even flip that much like the gap and the gain there’s a flip there, if you live under the idea and I just – is just fresh on my mind because I just did a podcast episode of this, if you live in the idea that you’ve got all the time in the world, there is a great Rolling Stone song, Time is on our side.
Like, if you literally believe you’ve got all the time in the world, well then you can slow down and optimize for the long term and you can enjoy the journey and like also be moving and making progress because there’s no hurry, there’s no rush. As John Maxwell says, you know if you’re good, he’s talking about business and life, if you’re good, time is your friend. If you’re bad, time is your enemy, you know?
So, if you’re doing good work in the world, then you have a servant’s heart, like dude, the longer it takes that’s better because you’re going to develop wisdom, you’re going to have more impact. I even, I love this quote, Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, I think I read this in a Seth Godin book, maybe The Dip, but he says something to the effect of like Sergey to some on Google. He said, “It’s better for the customer to find out about me and my business later,” you know?
Like, just give me more time to develop and the business to develop or my thoughts to develop. I think as a thought leader, I think of you like you’ve created so much thought leadership, and bro, you’ve been good from day one so you’re an exception but I’m sure you would even admit, in a way, it’s better for a podcast listener or a reader to pick up one of your books or your podcasts now versus five years ago or five years from now versus today because you’ve just developed more helpful rich mature thought leadership.
[0:33:07.2] JR: I want to unpublish stuff, man. I want to – Matt Chandler did this. You can’t find old Matt Chandler sermons because he’s like so embarrassed by the theology, like took it all down.
[0:33:17.8] GC: Yeah, that’s smart.
[0:33:19.1] JR: Yeah. All right, hey, I want to step outside of the content of this book Rebel for a second and talk about the making of the book because I just think this is a great case study of how your faith so powerfully influences your work, Graham. I remember you texting me, I think you sent me an audio message, we trade a lot of audio messages. By the way, you’re the first person to get me hooked on audio messages, congratulations. You’ve got that, and beating Tim Keller going for you today.
[0:33:42.8] GC: I love it.
[0:33:43.4] JR: And I remember you saying, “Yeah, man, I can’t really explain it but I just felt like the Holy Spirit just gave me the outline for this book, gave me the framework for this book.” Take our listeners into that experience, what was that like? Where were you, what happened? Talk us through it.
[0:33:57.7] GC: Yeah, this was such a sweet gift from the Lord and a really challenging but beautiful experience. Early 2023, I was spending a day with Jon Gordon, author-speaker. I’ve gotten to know him briefly at an event and convinced him, twisted his arm to come over to Tampa, and sort of just spent the day with me. I was trying to gain wisdom from him specifically on speaking, how do I become a world-class speaker.
I want to know what your thoughts on it, whatever, I had all of these, I had 30 questions I had written down, and before I got to my questions, he said – well, before we get into that, “What’s the message of your next book?” And I just come off the heels of my first book that you really helped me like, workshop the idea for and you helped me get an agent. Like, I owe so much of my authorship success to you being a coach and friend, and mentor in that space, and really, taking the time to push me.
So, I was – I’m super grateful for you, bro. I will never forget it but I really feel like I was fresh off the heels of that. I was like, “Ooh, I got a book out in the world,” and it was awesome, and I was proud of it and I have no idea what to write next. I wasn’t even thinking about that and that’s all he wanted to know is what’s the message of the next book, and I said, “Bro, I have no idea.” So, we spent two hours over lunch thinking about everything and anything I could write about and would be passionate about writing about or made sense to write about.
And none of it was really clicking for me and he finally said, “Okay, well, just tell me your life story.” So, I started to tell him my story about wanting to be a rock star and a musician. I just sort of gave him a little bit of it and how my guidance counselor, I talk about some of these stories in the book and how I didn’t want to go to college, and she just gave me a lot of crap for that. I was the only student that wasn’t applying to college and I had to apply.
And then, all these different things I just didn’t – he interrupted me halfway through. He said, “Bro, you don’t do what people tell you to do. You’re a rebel.” And it was this weird kind of moment of rebel, I never used that language before for myself but it was one of those things, Jordan, where in a moment, I felt like I better understood my story when we called me a rebel because I realized, “Oh, yeah, like I’ve always intuitively felt I need to go this way.”
“But my family and my classmates and my church community and other people are going that way, and I feel the tension because I respect all these people for the most part but I don’t feel like that’s the way I’m supposed to go. What do I do about that?” And so, I felt like, “Wait a second, there’s something here.” And he said, “Bro, I think your story and just the concept of how you’ve zigged when everyone else zagged, whether you knew you were doing it or not is meaningful for people and could set a lot of people free.”
And I said, “Bro, I think there’s something here, let’s workshop it.” So, in that moment, we started to brainstorm rebels in history, like what is the definition of a rebel, what are the benefits of a rebel, what are the concepts, all this stuff happened in a flurry, and he just challenged me at the end of the day. He said, “Bro, I think you need to pitch this. This is a book, I think you need to pitch it to your publisher.”
And I said, “They’re not going to sign it because they signed me as a business author. This is like a personal development book. I don’t think they’re going to sign it.” He said, “Just pitch it.” So, I said, “I need to think about it, pray about it a little bit longer, and see if there’s something there.” So, two days later, I was sitting at Barnes & Noble of all places, my daughter was at a dance class right next door and I would just sit there and wait.
And I was like, “Well, Lord, if this is something here, if this is actually a full book, you got to give me something to write about because I can’t just write a blog post and then add 300 pages to it like most people do.”
[0:37:08.7] JR: Like most books, right, right, right.
[0:37:10.0] GC: Yeah, most books are just a bunch of garbage and so I said, “I’m not going to do that and I am not going to write this unless this is really something that’s meaningful for people and I don’t know what to write about.” And so, I said, so this is what I kind of – it’s almost like a fleece moment and I haven’t shared this part of the story. I was like, “Lord if this is really a book, give me a framework.”
“Just show it to me, high level, what’s the journey I would take people through?” And I immediately thought in my mind, well, this should be an acronym for the word rebel, and I was like, “Well, okay, I like acronyms. If that works, great but I am not going to force it.” And then it was like, I got my Google doc out and I just saw all of it resolving to dream again, establishing the outcome.
I just literally saw it and that’s all I had to wrote that down, and so all I have was like the title, Rebel, a paragraph concept, and this five-part framework that I had not teased out but it intuitively made sense to me and I put that on a one pager and emailed my publisher, my editor, and that whole, and he’s like, “When can you have the manuscript in? This is great.” I was like, “This is not even a book.”
So, the fact that they signed it and they saw potential in it, and Jon Gordon’s like, “Bro, I think this is a great book. I think you should write it.” All of a sudden, I knew that God was doing something. So, then I was like, “Well, Lord, I still don’t know how to outline this thing. I need You to help me.” And so, He just wrote from every step from the outline to writing to the stories to the quotes to the verses in scripture that He told me.
Even how to end the book, which by the way if you haven’t read it, it ends about a story with demon possession in Mark chapter five. It’s the most random, but God’s like, “This is how you end the book.” I’m like, “What? I don’t understand how this is relevant.” He’s like, “Read it again, read Mark 5 again.” And I read it a couple of times and then all of a sudden, it jumped off the page what the principle was that made sense with the book.
God wrote this book, bro. It was literally like open laptop, “Okay, here we go. What am I going, what am I doing with this chapter?” And that was the most frightening thing because I didn’t feel confident writing it because I didn’t know it was any good because I didn’t know what I was writing half the time and I would have fits and spurts where there would be flow and God would be like, He would give me an idea.
I don’t work on vacation but I remember being in California last or two summers ago and all of a sudden, we’re sitting out by the pool of this Airbnb and I got the opening idea for a chapter that I was stuck at and I was like, “Babe, I don’t like to work but I need to write this chapter right now because God just gave it to me.” It was things like that over the course of four months, off and on, the faucet turning off and on.
And honestly, bro, when I turned it in to my editor, I was like I warned her, “This might be messy, like I think there’s some gold in here but it may not be a coherent, you know, story or narrative or whatever. So, feel free to just chop the heck out of it.” And she came back, bro, and she said, “This is the most organized first manuscript I’ve seen in a long time.” I was like, “Dude, that’s the Holy Spirit,” because I literally was writing it almost blind.
And just not second-guessing, whatever He put on my head I just wrote it down, and I figured we could cut it later and all that to say to see 22-year-olds read this book and tell me, “Bro, I thought I had a path I was on and I actually got to be honest with myself and I hated this path and I am going to quit right now before I even start and I’m going to go build this business,” or I am going to do this new thing or I am going to become a missionary or I’m going to –
Like, 22-year-olds feeling like freedom to go do the path they want to do and they feel called to do to 62-year-olds that just got laid off who finally felt the confidence and the courage to be honest for themselves about the desires God’s put in their heart for decades, so they just never had the guts to act on for whatever reason, to see that gap and see it just setting people free, Christian and non-Christian is so exciting.
And I really can’t take credit for it because I’m really just discovering the message as I wrote it and as I get it out there in the world.
[0:40:42.9] JR: I have to imagine the vast majority of our listeners pray about their work, talk to God about their work. I knew very few believers who invite the Holy Spirit into the work, to step into the work, right? And really do it alongside of them. You haven’t always done this, like I don’t think. What does this look like on a regular basis for you beyond this book to invite the Holy Spirit to actually do the work alongside you? I’m not even sure I’m framing that question the right way.
[0:41:15.6] GC: Yeah, man, I’m figuring it out. My experience has been and I’ve grown a lot in the last two or three years in this area, my experience with the Lord in this way has been again, practical level, I run a business, is ideas that pop in my head I no longer assume, I assume are just my ideas. I assume that’s a potential download or something I should pay attention to, so I am paying more attention.
And so, flipping it from it might be God but it’s probably me, I am flipping it to it might be me but it’s probably God and I could be wrong but I am just flipping that 80-20, maybe 80% of them are now God, I’m going to assume that. So, I will pay attention to it or write it down, and then in the next time I spend time with the Lord, I’ll ask Him about it. So, whether it’s a business idea, whether it’s an opportunity to do something, whether it’s just an interesting statement that might be cool thought leadership, I’ll write it down, assume it’s from the Lord.
And then, I’ll just check it with Him and I’ll sort of ask questions like again, in the morning in my Bible journal, I’ll have conversations with the Lord, sorting my journal and tell Him, “Lord, what do you think about, like I need to launch this new offer. I shut down a couple of offers, I know I need to launch something new. I feel like I got this idea for this new community product. What do You think about this?”
“Is this something I should pursue, is this of You? Is there something here?” And I don’t always hear stuff or get clarity in the moment but I do get affirmation of like the green light, green light, green light, or a more clarifying idea or finding the idea from things and I could just sense maybe it’s someone else mentioned something the next day or someone asked me a question about, “Are you going to launch a new community?”
And I’m like, I just start to – I’d pay attention better and I don’t assume it’s random but I am constantly in conversation within, like constant. It’s not like a one-time, “Hey, what do you think about this?” And then I move on. It’s just staying in touch with the Lord about it all the way through and then to your point about something you said earlier, being so open-handed with it of like if at the last minute God says no, I’m willing to shut it down too and realize that there’s a reason for it.
And one of my mentors, Ed, a guy named Ed Kobel, he is a real estate developer, loves the Lord, you know, he is running Ed DeBartolo’s like five-billion-dollar empire here in Tampa but he does this all the time but one example of him was that there was an apartment complex deal they were going to do and they’ve been doing the research on it for months and it was in progress. They were about to build and he talks with the Lord every day about this stuff.
He felt the Lord confirmed it but one day, he’s pumping gas, and he’s just pumping gas and he felt the Lord says, “Close that deal, don’t move forward on that deal.” And he’s walked the Lord long enough to just be like, “Well, that was a waste of nine months and money and time but if You say so, sure.” And so they just pulled the plug on the deal and he to this day has no idea why but that’s the kind of stuff, that’s the kind of relationship he has where I feel like God uses our intuition.
He uses our intelligence, He uses our experience, and if you’re in touch with Him every day, even if you don’t have tons of time to sit, even if you’re a busy mom or dad or like you’re in the car, you got three seconds in the bathroom, like just invite the Lord, like, “Lord, I am moving in this direction, is this wise? What do you have to say about this?” He will speak back to you. It might be through a song, it might be through a book.
I mean, bro, like God has spoken to me a lot through some of the passages in your books, and I don’t have to be like, “Why won’t God speak to me?” He is speaking to me, He gave me Jordan Raynor to write a book that said something that, in that moment, I needed to hear and I think that’s a lot of times how the Holy Spirit sounds is through other people if you’re willing to pay attention and so, I don’t know. I don’t do this well but long story short, that’s how I do it, man.
[0:44:44.9] JR: It’s really good and I think we have to be careful not to distill everything in our faith to practical frameworks, right? Because God is above us and so much infinitely wiser than us. It’s mysterious, we walk by faith. That said, He has given us a mind. He told us to love the Lord our God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and so what you just shared with me was extremely helpful of working with God in a practical way.
One, assume it’s Him who’s speaking, right? Dude, shift the default position to I assume it’s my idea to assume it’s an idea from the Lord. Two, follow up with Him about the idea and study of His word and prayer, etcetera, and then three, watch and move. Watch what happens later that afternoon when you’ve been conversing with the Lord about it, see what conversations He brings in your life.
Man, that’s super good. I’ve long wondered, I love Skye Jethani’s book With, I’ve long wanted to write a book called With God Practically at Work because Skye gets practical towards the end of the book but man, I think you just like outlined the book, maybe that’s the next book for you.
[0:45:46.5] GC: Bro, that – yeah. Well, I think you should write it, so maybe I can just like you could quote me in it.
[0:45:52.0] JR: That’s right.
[0:45:52.2] GC: Or put my face on the front of it, just joking but dude, I will say like, you know what comes up for me is just that John chapter 15, vine and the branches thing, like that analogy is so interesting to me. What Jesus says, “Apart from Me, you could do nothing” in that passage, well, I don’t want to do nothing. I want to do lots of some things and so I want to be connected with Him and if all He tells us to do in that passage is stay connected to the vine, I feel like that’s what we just outlined as that’s how you get the sap is you have to stay connected. That’s what abiding looks like.
[0:46:18.8] JR: That’s how we abide.
[0:46:19.6] GC: Yeah, there’s nothing sexy or flashy but it is a daily practice and a final thing I would say about that is you can’t hear the still small voice of the Lord if you’re in a hurry if you’re constantly listening to everything else if there’s just noise internally like there is a quieting and a slowing that can aid in your ability to hear Him and notice when God is moving because He doesn’t shout very often unfortunately.
[0:46:41.8] JR: Amen, that’s why we have to descend from the kingdom of noise as I say in Redeeming Your Time. All right, four super quick questions. One, what job do you want God to give you on the new earth?
[0:46:50.9] GC: Oh, just put me on the buffet line, like let me just like serve sandwiches or you know, burgers or –
[0:46:57.6] JR: Those choice meats that Isiah 25 is talking about?
[0:47:00.0] GC: Yeah.
[0:47:00.2] JR: You just want to serve the choicest barbecue of all time?
[0:47:02.4] GC: Yeah, because then, like, people love you because you were giving them food but then also, you can snack on the, you know, the back of the kitchen whenever you need something. It’s great, I love it.
[0:47:09.5] JR: What books do you give away the most?
[0:47:11.3] GC: I think we’ve talked about this before, The Go-Giver. I think it just applies to so many area. If I had to pick one, Christian, non-Christian, business owner, non-business owner, it’s the – it’s just generosity, it’s open.
[0:47:21.9] JR: I still haven’t read The Go-Giver. I got to do it.
[0:47:24.6] GC: Bro, I would love your take on it. Seriously, like read it in an hour and then tell me what you think of it because I feel like it’s an abundance mindset.
[0:47:30.1] JR: It’s that short?
[0:47:31.1] GC: Maybe two, it’s a tiny little parable, yeah, it’s short.
[0:47:34.2] JR: All right, I’ll read it, I’ll let you know. Who do you want to hear on this podcast?
[0:47:36.9] GC: Have you had Erwin McManus on this show?
[0:47:38.9] JR: I’ve never invited Erwin.
[0:47:40.1] GC: Oh, get Erwin, I would totally listen to that.
[0:47:42.6] JR: That’s a great one. I loved – who was the artist book, the artist he wrote? Gosh, it had “Artist” in the title, I can’t remember it anymore.
[0:47:49.6] GC: Yeah.
[0:47:49.7] JR: I read it like eight years ago and I loved it. I’ll reach out to Erwin.
[0:47:53.7] GC: I think your brains together would just be like a mind meld that I would pay money to listen to.
[0:47:58.9] JR: Yeah, coming soon behind the paywall. All right, buddy, you’re talking to this global of mere Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally, some of them are entrepreneurs like you and me but many of them are not. What’s one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?
[0:48:13.4] GC: God loves you so much that He put desires in your heart. Pay attention to them. Feel the freedom to pay attention to them because it will lead to more awareness of how you're wired, it will lead to more intimacy with the Lord, and it will lead to a more fulfilling life because fulfillment doesn’t come from following the crowd or doing what you think you should do in or out of the church.
Fulfillment comes from living out the way you're designed, you’re designed by the Lord, and that starts with desire. So, I would say, pay attention to your dreams, your desires, and ask God to come into the conversation with it.
[0:48:45.2] JR: So good. Graham, man, I feel like I could say this with a lot of sincerity given how much I’ve seen you on and off camera. Man, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for loving your customers well, for loving our listeners well, by just encouraging them to dream with God and for God as they head into 2025.
This book’s going to help a whole lot of people, it’s already helped a ton of people. Guys, if you’re interested in going deeper into these themes, pick up a copy of Graham’s great bestselling book, Rebel: Find Yourself By Not Following the Crowd. Graham, thanks for the threepeat, buddy.
[0:49:23.9] GC: Dude, it is my honor and privilege, love what you’re doing, bro. Keep it up.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:49:26.3] JR: We are setting the bar high for episodes in 2025. I hope you guys enjoyed that one as much as I did. Hey, I want to know who you want to hear on the Mere Christians podcast in 2025. Let me know at JordanRaynor.com/contact. Thank you, guys, so much for tuning in, I’ll see you next week.
[END]