How God used this CDC official to care for 10 million orphans
Jordan Raynor sits down with Dr. Susan Hillis, Epidemiologist, to talk about how God used her position at the CDC to spearhead caring for 10 million orphans, the profound impact that a silent retreat had on her life and work, and how to remind yourself of the Father’s delight in you as you work.
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors, or religious professionals, but who work as loan officers, diesel mechanics, and medical assistants. That's the question we explore every week. Today, I'm posing it to Dr. Susan Hillis. She's an epidemiologist who spent 30-plus years at the CDC. Today, she's the co-chair of the Global Reference Group on children affected by COVID-19. Dr. Hillis is a world-renowned scientist, whose research has led to over 140 peer-reviewed publications.
Dr. Hillis and I recently sat down and had a terrific conversation about how God has used her position at the CDC to spearhead caring for more than 10 million orphans. We talked about the profound impact that a silent retreat had on Dr. Hillis’s life and work. We talked about how practically you and I can remind ourselves of the Father's delight in us as we work. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with Dr. Susan Hillis.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:32] JR: Dr. Hillis, welcome to The Mere Christians Podcast.
[00:01:35] SH: Thank you so much, Jordan.
[00:01:37] JR: Hey, so to satisfy government lawyers, I want to make clear for everybody on the podcast that you're speaking for yourself personally today. Not on behalf of any agency. Is that right? You want to clarify anything there, Dr. Hillis?
[00:01:51] SH: Sure. I'd be happy to. Yes, I would just say my views, experiences, findings and conclusions are mine alone. They do not necessarily represent the views, or official positions of any US government, bilateral or multilateral organization, or academic institution that I work with.
[00:02:12] JR: You've got that down pat. Our listeners, I think just skipped ahead 30 seconds through that. But you got it. You nailed it. All right, Dr. Hillis. Let's start here because I don't know that everybody understands what an epidemiologist does. Tell us a little bit about the nature of this vocation.
[00:02:32] SH: Yeah. I hadn't had that question in so long. Some people who are guessing think, “Oh, my goodness. Is it from epidermis? Is it something with the skin?” The answer is no. It is from epidemics. Epidemiologists, that's the etymology. Epidemiology is the study of the distribution and determinants of disease and health and threats in populations.
[00:02:55] JR: Yeah. How long have you been doing this work?
[00:02:59] SH: I have been doing this work for 31 years. What's amazing is it's definitely my vocation, because I would do it if no one paid me to do it. I think that's the thing. I actually didn't do it for a year when no one paying me, but I definitely feel it's clearly God's calling and invitation and blessing to me to be able to serve in this way. I'm so glad he didn't ask me to be an accountant, which my husband is, because I would not feel that way. I’ll leave it to everybody else to deal with the money. I'm happy to deal with science and public health aspects.
[00:03:32] JR: My wife is an accountant, and I'm glad that God did not bless me that those skills. But he didn’t bless me with the skills of science either. I am totally ignorant when it comes to that and the sciences. I'm curious, you say this has always felt like a call in your life. Where was the seed of this? Did at an early age, were you sure you wanted to be a doctor and specifically, an epidemiologist?
[00:03:55] SH: No. I think that there's a story. We were on the mission field for a number of years early on, and we – and Colombia, South America, and we always had a sense of wanting to use our vocational skills to help contribute to societal transformation, and also, to be involved in evangelizing and sharing the gospel and discipling professionals that we naturally got to know through our work. From the very beginning, I taught at a university as a professor in South America, in Colombia. I realized that the thing that people most needed was to have an ability to determine the causes and consequences and opportunities to prevent the main causes of death and disability.
I think, my passion for doing that came from actually being on the mission field and with a master's in public health and seeing that if we could just get leaders in nations able to know how to do the research and solve their own health problems that they can make so much progress. It probably came from that, my science interest. Part of it, actually, also came, because I grew up in a non-Christian family where there was a lot on domestic violence, I would say. I realized that people don't really know how to love each other unless God puts that love in their hearts. I decided I wanted to – At that point, I was not a believer. In high school, I just thought, “I am never getting married, because all people just hurt each other. But I do want to make the world a better place.” I love science. I love math. I love languages. I love writing, I'm going to do something that will let me use all four of those.
Really, epidemiology is what let me use all four of those. Then obviously, I became a believer, and I'm still married to my husband 45 years later. I adore him. That totally changed the trajectory of my life personally.
[00:05:57] JR: I didn't realize before we got on the phone that you had spent time in the mission field. I think a lot of people would hear this story. Maybe you even heard this from some people when you formally left the “missions field.” They say, “Oh, my gosh. What are you talking about? Going and working as an epidemiologist, instead of spending all your time sharing the gospel with others.” Talk a little bit more about that transition, because I think a lot of times in the church today, we have a tendency to elevate the great commission to the only commission at the neglect of a lot of other things Jesus called us to do, including heal the sick. Talk a little bit more about your journey here.
[00:06:36] SH: It was a surprise to me being on mission filled that God literally, I felt like I had a fillip-like experience. My husband and I had two children, one and two. Our one-year-old quit breathing in our home one night in a city where there was no medical care. There was an ambulance. We were able to emergently get two hours away from where we live to Cartagena, Columbia and get a plane out. Once we got to the States into a hospital, our son was diagnosed and had a really serious heart defect.
We were going to need to live within about a 60-second drive from a tertiary care medical hospital. It became clear, we could not go back to the Latin American settings, on the mission field. In fact, there was no place in Latin America that was really safe enough for him from a hospital point of view.
That was 30 years ago. We had to switch, figure out, okay, if we're going to be in the States, instead of God has clearly picked us up and plopped us here in the States, what are we passionate about? At that point, I was hoping and praying that God would with time heal our son, and we'd get back to the mission field. I knew having served as a professor on the mission field and then very involved in the church and in discipling and doing evangelist, do Bible studies with other professors that I worked with in our home, who became really our closest friends, and a number of them came to faith as well.
I realized that I really had a passion for helping train others in identifying and solving their own health problems. God opened the door for me to get a Ph.D. in epidemiology at UNC, full scholarship. I was really excited. As I said, I've always loved science, math, languages, and writing. You can do all of that with that. Then after that, CDC actually recruited me to come into their Epidemic Intelligence Service Training Program, which is, I guess, their premier training program after I finished my Ph.D. in epidemiology.
[00:08:45] JR: That's amazing. For you, there was never this divide of, “Well, now that I'm not a missionary, I'm not really doing the Lord's work.” You always viewed this work in science as part of God's mission in the world, it sounds like.
[00:08:58] SH: I did. I would say, but in the beginning, it was not the change from being on the mission field to being in the government as much it was the – as the change from being a Latin American environment, which when people are more important than things and plans, it seems a lot more consistent with the values of the gospel than living in an American culture where things and plans tend to be more important than people culturally.
I think I had a big culture shock, more than a change from a Christian sector to a governmental sector. I will say though, one of the most respected directors ever of CDC, Bill Foege, as a believer. He’s quite in his 80s by now. He kept switching back and forth from being a Director of the CDC to go into the mission field and being a Director of the CDC to go into the mission field. He finally knew it. I heard him speak maybe two years ago someplace, and he was saying, he was talking a little bit about why he decided ultimately, to stay with the government. He made a very insightful comment. He said, “In the government, you really have to love everybody.”
That was so disappointing to me. But I understand to some degree what he meant. He meant, the church does not really behave as though we have to love everyone, even though it's what the gospel teaches us. I think what he was intimating is Christians so easily are known for what they're against. It's what they're for, and so much has been written about that. I would say, I have absolutely thrived to being in the government and being invited to love well the people that I work with and receive love from them. I think that it has been a real blessing and I would not change anything.
[00:10:55] JR: Yeah. You're alluding to something I wanted to ask you about. You're at the CDC. You left recently. How long were you at the CDC? 30 years-ish?
[00:11:03] SH: Yes. I was there 30 years, and I transitioned to Oxford University into the State Department in PEPFAR in the last five months or so.
[00:11:12] JR: Yeah, I love it. You're a faithful follower of Jesus. You spent 30 years working at the CDC. At a time when many of your fellow Christians are telling each other to trust God and not science, this classic science versus faith divide, what was that experience like for you, working at the CDC, where all this rhetoric was reaching an inflection point?
[00:11:37] SH: I guess, I would say, I had a wonderful experience as a believer at CDC. There are many people of deep faith at CDC. Just like you're mentioning Dr. Collins. You might have him on soon. I guess, I felt very respected and appreciated. I'll say something else. When we were on the mission field years ago, the president of Princeton came and spoke at the language goal that we went to in Costa Rica before I went to Colombia. Before he got up to speak, and anytime you speak someplace, they share a bio. His bio was so extensive, and just overwhelmingly impressive.
I went from thinking, “Oh, that man's amazing,” to thinking, “He must be pretty arrogant.” I can't believe he's sitting there and letting people say so much. It's so flattering and [inaudible 00:12:29].” He stands up, and he's afterwards and he goes, “You might be wondering whether all those things that that person just said about me are true. I will say, yes, they're true. Then you might ask why I let people read it. I will tell you, if it were up to me, I would love to be introduced as I was a beggar who found fresh bread in the word and presence of Jesus, and I would love to share what I have found with you.” He said, “But, if I stood up, and they stood up and said that probably not many of you would want to listen to me.”
And certainly, none of the non-believers that I love and work with would want to listen to me. He said, “I just really urge you to aim for excellence and impact in whatever area of service the Lord invites you into, and know that because people respect what you do and your character, they will begin to want to know more about what you believe.” I think that has been just so fully true for me. I guess, so much of what being a believer for me has meant at CDC is sharing what is grabbing my heart and my mind, and to complement the excellence of work and service, sharing what is grabbing my heart and mind that I feel like it's from God, even though I might not say that from them in the beginning.
Let me give you an example of the pandemic, what has happened. Two months into the pandemic, I get a call from a pastor in Zambia, because I actually have been on a long-term secondment to PEPFAR since 2017, even my last four or five years at CDC. But I was pulled back in to be deployed on to COVID the last two years. I received this call from a pastor that I'm friends with and that I knew from my PEPFAR service and work. Over a crackling Zoom line, he says, “Susan, I am so scared. If COVID comes here and takes out the grannies in Zambia, we will not have anybody left to take care of all these orphans. We have got so many AIDS orphans still and their parents are dead. I just don't know what we would do.”
I would lay in bed at night thinking about, “Oh, my goodness. We have got to model this. We got to publish it. We've got to create. We got to produce the big number. I can see what we would need to do to do that.” I realized I know the people in the world that I could pull into collaborating with me, and we could answer this question and publish it and get the number out to the world. I began to ask people. Certainly, as I began to ask people, I would tell the story about the pastor who called me. He's worried, and I felt worried.
When I think everyone in their heart of hearts feels this longing for compassion and to be part of compassion, and part of purpose and impact. The fact that it's the question of one pastor in a country that is driving so much work, I mean now, and we just published another paper and report last week. We have now 10.5 million children orphaned by the pandemic, that we have described. The Lord has let me be the first author of seven peer-reviewed publications and/or reports on this topic in the past year, with a team that's the head of child development at Harvard, the head of orphan [inaudible 00:16:05] children at USAD, other is in the leadership at CDC. One of the lead economists at the World Bank, the head of violence prevention for World Health Organization, and other colleagues. Now, I'm at Oxford, from Oxford University and Imperial College, and University College of London.
As I was putting together the co-authorship team, I realized, we have got to have an international Catholic organization and Protestant/ Evangelical organization that feels God has called them to care about the orphans around the world, because it's not going to help at all if we get all these big numbers, but we don't have anybody on our authorship and expert reference group team that can immediately get help to the kids who most need it.
[00:16:51] JR: Yeah. Amen. When you're excellent at your craft and you earn the respect, you win the respect, as Paul says, of outsiders. Man, this is what drives me so crazy about anyone who would call work in the government, work in the CDC, work outside the church “secular work.” As you're telling the story, I'm thinking of Obadiah, who was a government official, right? Placed there by God, and was used by God to protect the prophets. To hide these 100 or so profits away from this ruthless king. Here, God placed you, Dr. Hillis, in this government agency to see these problems and to serve these orphans. That's not secular work. You're doing it with God and for his purposes. It's just a beautiful testimony of that truth.
[00:17:43] SH: There are many leaders in the scriptures that were involved, either directly or indirectly in serving with, or negotiating with the government; Moses and Aaron and Pharaoh, Daniel and King, Joseph and the Pharaoh, David becoming the king. Esther influencing the king. You can't really pay attention to the scriptures, and let that be wasted on you, nor can you pay attention to the – one of the names of Jesus being king, and believe that there's anything lower, or less than about that. I don't feel that at all.
I want to say something else, though, about something that's really been helpful to me. I just have a habit to go and take some time with solitude for a couple days every other year or so, with just an intent to listen to God and seek Him. There's a monastery about 30 minutes away from us here in Atlanta that my husband and I go to sometimes for that purpose inside. I had gone to the monastery years ago. I was walking in, there was a monk there and he goes, “You, you. Come here quickly. I've taken a vow of solitude, but God has me here to pray for you.” I thought, “Oh, my goodness. This is weird.” I mean, this is what I really thought. Then what do you do? I mean, I felt [inaudible 00:18:57].
[00:18:57] JR: Right. You know. Bigger than that.
[00:18:59] SH: I guess, I shouldn't say no. I followed him. “Sit down. Sit down. I have to go preach Vespers in five minutes.” I do. He lays his hands on my shoulders and he goes, “Don't feel the hand, my hands on you, but feel the hands of the Lord Jesus on you. Don't hear my voice to you. Hear the voice of the Lord Jesus to you. I have called you to be an instrument of my love, and the lives of many children who have been abandoned. Always lay hands on them, and bless them in Jesus’s name.” Then he says, “Amen.” He goes, “I'm going to Vespers. I needed to tell you that.” So in a hurry.
I'm weeping, because it was right after we had adopted our first two kids. I realized, “Oh, my goodness. This is much bigger than God than your calling than just adopting two children.” As the COVID situation came up, and I get the call from my friend, Remy in Zambia, this is what I think is so for me. I think, unbelievably, and almost inexpressibly reassuring and I think inspiring. That is, God has placed me to work on what he cares about within a government, or academic. It started at when I was deployed at CDC, and that I first begin leading that COVID work there, with full recognition by CDC that the second order impacts on children are really serious from a public health and increased risk of long-term health problems, really their whole life long from that point of view. Then as I've transitioned over to Oxford, that's what I'm continuing to work on.
Having that within the framework of, “Oh, this is just part of God's call.” His call was to my family, to love children and see God turn them from being orphaned into turning them to be sons and daughters, who know the Lord themselves, number one. Also, serving within the government sphere and contributing to more and more people recognizing and understanding the magnitude and urgency and the problem, but also, the hope that is possible, because we actually know the solutions, that we have the science space that shows what works to really help them.
Then not only that, but God is letting me – I provide scientific technical assistance to a global movement called World Without Orphans, to try to ensure that the Christian groups are aware of the best practices when they're moving forward, to try to ensure vulnerable children and orphans are in safe and loving families, and not in institutions. And those families have the help they need. God spoke to me so clearly, and I probably only have time to go over that one. There are a couple others, but God spoke to me so clearly. I would say, even in those other ways, just confirming what that first monastery experience was, probably every four to five years or so.
When I got that call from Remy, I thought, “This is obvious. This is part of God's call for my life. I believe, he has placed me in the position to do something about it, and to be his voice to many people who together, can do a lot about it around the world.”
[00:22:24] JR: Yeah. But if you hadn't taken that time for quiet solitude, years before that call from Remy, you may not have connected those dots. Maybe would have. Maybe not, though. It sounds like that blessing, that that word from that monk is rolling around your head for obvious reasons when that call comes through at the CDC. How often do you make that time for solitude to just be thinking about and praying about your family and your work?
[00:22:50] SH: Oh, I get up early and I have time with the Lord, probably an hour every morning in my quiet time, just journaling, reading the scriptures, having a sense of listening to the Lord. I would say, probably once every year or two, I will have a dedicated date or two, only for the purpose of hearing from God and listening to him. Every January, probably the beginning of January, I will definitely take two half a days, if not a whole day to ask God like, “Can you show me what's your agenda for the coming year?” Because often, God's agenda is really not our agenda.
[00:23:28] JR: Yeah. Amen.
[00:23:29] SH: I would say, it's a life-giving habit and source of great joy and reassurance to me. The way God tends to do when God told, I think it was Ezekiel or Jeremiah, whoever it was like, “Take this waistband. Bury it. Dig it up. Say to Israel, I have made you to be this waistband that clings to me, but you've been unwilling.” There was a series of progressive instructions. I would say, since those years ago, God has only, I think, made more clear his progressive revelation to me of what his invitation to me is, through the daily time, yearly time, the every January time. I would say, the centrality of me wanting to hear God's voice probably underlines most things I do.
[00:24:24] JR: Yeah. No, I love that. I talked about this in one of my books, this idea of dissenting from the kingdom of noise, so that we can think and be creative, but most importantly, to hear the voice of God, and where he's calling us to focus our time and attention in our lives at work. Dr. Hillis, you have – I've been thinking a lot about, not a morbid way, I don't think, but thinking a lot about death lately and how meditating on death shapes our work. You've stared death in the face more than most people I know with the tragic loss of your son, with obviously, being at the CDC, during this unbelievable pandemic over the last couple of years. How do you think that dwelling on death has shaped the work you do as an epidemiologist? In what ways has it influenced your vocation?
[00:25:13] SH: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I would say, I do not dwell on death. I dwell on hope. I learn a lot from faith leaders around the world that I connect with often through virtually, through regular calls, either with or without orphans or with – I am quite involved with PEPFAR with the Faith and Communities Initiative and a New Foundations of Hope webinar series that was started two years ago when the pandemic started. I think that one of the things that we are uniquely invited to carry with us is hope. I think that I see death as a dot in eternity –
[00:26:07] JR: Yes, amen.
[00:26:08] SH: - more than I see it as the unfortunate tragic end of full life. Death, in some ways is a crucifixion. It's a loss of life, and it is. There is no resurrection without crucifixion. For every crucifixion, there is the resurrection. If you change it into your death analogy, there is no sense of hope without this sense of loss. For every sense of loss, there is a renewed and a greater sense of hope. That's how I think of it.
[00:26:42] JR: That's really, really well said. When you die Dr. Hillis, if we go further down this path, chances are good that viruses are still going to be ravaging this world.
[00:26:54] SH: Absolutely.
[00:26:56] JR: What truths in scripture give you hope in the face of that sobering reality as you approach the work every day, knowing that all of us are going to die with unfinished symphonies?
[00:27:06] SH: Yeah. Suddenly, Romans 8, about nothing can separate us from the love of God, not life or death, or powers, nor principalities, nothing present, nor nothing to come, cause the thing that matters most we cannot lose, and we will only get more of.
[00:27:20] JR: I love that. On a day-to-day level, how is the gospel shaping how you do the work today?
[00:27:28] SH: Oh, man. I love this question. I would say, that love as the central – all the commandments are summed up into love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. I think when you're in a high-demand work environment, it is very easy to slip into the reverse. I think, also the gospel drives me to prayer and to availability. Because often, what we have on our phones is our schedule, and our computers is our schedule, it may really not be God's agenda for us for that hour or half hour per day.
I think a gospel shapes my having an open hand about the agenda and not being so driven by it. I think it gives me courage, because if there's something I feel clear that God is leading me forward to do, then it doesn't really matter to me very much what people think. I care a lot more about what God thinks of me. Then the other thing is, often if God is leading you, for an ideas person and God's leading you to try to accomplish something big, like call the world to help 10.5 million orphans, it could be easy to be overwhelmed. I feel very confident that there's only one miracle that is in all four of the gospels, and it's the five – that feeding of the 5,000.
The lesson is the same no matter which version you look at. That is Jesus could not care squat about those 5,000 people what they didn't have, in terms of food to feed them. He was so excited about what they did have. He just said, “Bring it to me and let me multiply as you go.” Especially being a mother of 11 kids and working full-time and having my fingers in a number of things, I just feel very comfortable moving forward with my five loaves and two fishes and not getting bent out of shape about them not being enough, because I have experienced repeatedly the Lord's multiplication.
[00:29:45] JR: I bet, especially in the context of the work you're doing now in tackling this massive orphan crisis, calm in the face of that massive obstacles, God had a pretty powerful sermon to those watching you do this work, right?
[00:30:00] SH: Well, I'm not sure. I mean, I don't really ever think about that. I just think about, there's a lot that we can do together, and we can invite more and more people to join us. Which is basically, I guess, the multiplication part. I'm not really aware of – I don't think about whether people might think. I just think about, I see the five loaves and two fishes I have, and I see the 10 loaves that person over there has. We need them. Will you come join us?
[00:30:30] JR: It's beautiful. You've reached with Tim Keller calls the freedom of self-forgetfulness. How do you cultivate a reminder of that, not just in that instance in the DC hotel room, but on a regular basis? How do you remind yourself that the Father is well pleased with you?
[00:30:48] SH: It's a great question. I'm really glad you asked it. There's a book called Strengthening Yourself in the Lord by Bill Johnson, and I read it years ago. He wrote in there transparently about him finding himself in circumstances in which the emotions connected with the cares of life seemed bigger in his experience than the promises of God for those events, or experiences of life. He had the habit of withdrawing. He said, he carried around with him this little packet of little cards of either verses God had given him, or promises God had given him. He would just look at those again to try to get refocused on the truth and reality of the scriptures and of who God is, and what he's promised.
I thought, well, I'm not going to carry cards around with me. But I do have the habit of journaling, and I could just start in the mornings every day, asking God, show me a verse or something that you want to impress on me for today. I'd write it down. In the early days, when I was doing that, maybe 15 years, or 20 years ago, I would – everybody's still carried briefcases and I was still going to my office all the time. I would just put my journal in my briefcase. If in the middle of a workday, I would be feeling that, I would pull it out and look at what God had given me that morning. Just pray about it a minute and think, “Lord, this is so helpful.”
Generally, it would pull me back into a more healthy sense of reality, whereby, I think the realities of heaven seemed more real in my experience than the realities of Earth. If that was not adequate, I would often text, or call a friend and say, “Please pray for me. I'm really upset about such and such. I'm struggling to believe God is bigger than the circumstances, or whatever.” I think that really helped me.
Then what's fascinating is I had done that for so many years now, I don't usually have to go back and open my journal to remember. I mean, usually, it's just there. This morning, I read about 10 and Jesus was focusing on with me on Jesus is the Good Shepherd, God's son, does God's work, and through living God's life. If that's pasted on the whiteboard in my mind as I start the day, and it's just sitting there during the day, I feel like the Lord helps me access it.
[00:33:33] JR: Yeah, that's really good. That's really encouraging. It's a super practical thing for listeners to take away from this episode. Hey, Dr. Hillis, has three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, in general, which books do you find recommending, or gifting to others the most frequently?
[00:33:52] SH: Yeah. I would say, there's a book written, I think, in 1976, by Peter Lord called Hearing God. I have given that book away so many times, because I find that a lot of times, believers either say, people don't hear from God anymore. When they say that, I don't know what they do with John 10. Or, they go on a deep end. It's like, heard God take out a McDonald's instead of Hardee's and you think, that's pretty crazy. Why would God care about that? I just felt it was such a balanced and inspirational treatment of the topic, and it really has helped me ever since. I give that away a lot.
Then this other one, especially in the middle of – so often, you're wanting to give someone a book who's in the middle of a crisis-like situation. That Red Sea Rules book is so accessible. I thought that's definitely the one I give away the most. I'm not giving away now The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer, but I'm recommending it and I'm reading Resilient by Eldredge and really liking that.
[00:34:58] JR: That's good. Those are great recommendations. Dr. Hillis, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences their work?
[00:35:06] SH: Okay. This is going to surprise you, and you haven’t heard of this person. You might even not think I’m –
[00:35:13] JR: I love those recommendations. I love people who I’ve never heard of.
[00:35:16] SH: I tell you, I promise you, I'm answering your question. Again, because I work globally, I know a number of Christian leaders around the world from different countries, and especially from Africa. I was just at the Global AIDS conference in Montreal, I guess, last month, and had some great conversations with a Ugandan bishop who lives in Kampala. Because you do this virtually, you could certainly interview him. Bishop Canon Gideon. He is 64 years old. He just turned 64, and he's been living 32 years with HIV and 32 years without HIV.
When I saw him, because he said, “I'm so excited. I'm getting ready to have my birthday. I'm going to have as long living with HIV as I've had living without HIV.” His wife, when he first contracted HIV, really encouraged him to be transparent, and tell people, because God was going to use him and his experience to bring grace to Africa in this area. He is such a common name in a lot of the African countries hardest hit by HIV.
The thing I'm really loving about him is there's a lot of discomfort in Christian communities about loving everyone, and loving everyone equally and everybody well. He has been developing a theology of that. This is his one sentence, “No matter who or what you consider yourself to be, or not to be. No matter who or what I consider myself to be, or not to be, we are morally obligated, theologically required and spiritually invited to love everyone with all our hearts. We do love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love everyone as much as we love ourselves.”
He basically says, any other option is either self-centredness, or self-righteousness. He is so articulate when he talks about these things. He's beginning to just have these open dialogues, and he's inviting leaders of Uganda to come sit on all sides of this fence, to come sit and talk with each other. I believe, he's going to bring a new kind of revelation and love among all groups that we have not seen in many years. I would invite him. It would be crazy to invite Bishop Canon Gideon.
[00:37:58] JR: That's not crazy at all. It's a great answer. I may be shooting you an email asking for the introduction. All right, Dr. Hillis, last question. What's one thing from our conversation today you want to reiterate to this audience of mere Christians before we sign off?
[00:38:14] SH: Okay. There's actually two things I want to most reiterate. One is –
[00:38:18] JR: Wonderful.
[00:38:19] SH: - be most known for your excellence and love first, and second most known for your excellence in work. This is the second thing I would say –
[00:38:28] JR: Great work.
[00:38:28] SH: Having worked in the government for 20, for 30 years, I saw so many believers, that I would say, they're like under a bushel. They might see that I was a Christian, because I was pretty comfortable not fighting it, and certainly, not being obnoxious about it. Just in the way I've talked about, oh, my goodness, this had to be from God, this friend of mine called me and asked me this, and I know how to help him about the orphans. I think, so they would maybe be honest with me, but I would not see anybody else much knowing that they weren't Christians. I would say, Jesus, when he talks about not hiding our light in a bushel, he really does talk about letting it shine at home and in your job and in the world.
[00:39:11] JR: Amen.
[00:39:11] SH: I would just invite people that one of the easiest ways to do that is through your testimonies of things you need prayer for or things that God has answered prayer about.
[00:39:24] JR: That's a great, great encouragement. It's part of the evidence that we should be leaving with those that we work with, that we are indeed an apprentice of King Jesus. Because they don't know that we're missing a massive opportunity to shine that light.
Dr. Hillis, you may have not heard this enough from fellow believers these past few years, but I want to shout it from the rooftops, thank you for the extraordinary work you do every day, for the glory of God and the good of others. Partnering with Jesus to restore and renew creation, in anticipation, of course, of his future work to make everything you. Thank you for your focus on pure and undefiled religion and serving orphans really well. See James 1, and for your reminder that God chooses often to do his work in this world through faithful followers of Christ, including you, Dr. Hillis. Thank you so much for the work you're doing and thank you for joining us on the podcast today.
[00:40:25] SH: Sure. Thanks so much, Jordan. Really, great blessings to everyone out there. Thanks to everyone for the service that you're rendering as well.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:40:34] JR: I loved that episode. I hope you guys did, too. What a great hero to point my girls to as they get older. Hey, if you're enjoying The Mere Christians Podcast, do me a favor and leave a review of the show on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to the podcast. Thank you, guys, so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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