How to deliver radical candor in a distinctly Christ-like way
How to deliver radical candor in a distinctly Christ-like way, the power of pursuing visions that will never be achieved, and how to lean into the hard parts of your story for God’s greater glory.
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[0:00:04] JR: Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I’m Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren’t pastors, or religious professionals, but who work as audiologists, restaurant hosts, and interior designers. That's the question we explore every week. Today, I'm posing it to my new friend, Dr. Monique Perry-Graves. She's the Executive Director of Teach for America North Carolina. Pretty big job. She’s had a lot of big jobs prior to that.
Monique and I recently sat down to talk about how to deliver radical candor at work. But in a distinctly Christ like way. We talked about the power of pursuing vocational visions that will never be achieved, and how to lean into the hard parts of your story for God's greater glory. Trust me, you're going to thoroughly enjoy this conversation with Dr. Monique Perry-Graves.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:11] JR: Dr. Perry-Graves. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.
[0:01:14] MPG: Thank you for having me, Jordan. It's an honor and pleasure.
[0:01:17] JR: Oh, man, the honor is all mine. Hey, you're at Teach for America. You're running Teach for America in the state of North Carolina. I'm curious what sparked this love of education for you? I know you had a teacher in the 12th grade who was really influential for you. Was that it? What was the spark of a love of education?
[0:01:35] MPG: Yes. I think it's in my DNA. It really goes back a couple of generations to my grandparents, who, during their time, did not have a chance to kind of have a full formal education, particularly my paternal grandfather, who had an eighth-grade education. But he actually worked at a school alongside my maternal grandmother and also was an entrepreneur and had his own business. So, they very much instilled the importance of education, and supported education, even though they did not have access to that traditional education themselves. They still valued it and also had a deep faith, and the intersections of those two things, and the modeling of my maternal grandparents is definitely in my DNA. Even though they did not get a chance to go to college, they afforded and worked hard to make sure that my mother and her siblings had the opportunity to go to college themselves.
My mother, actually, her first job, after she stayed home with me when I was young, was a teacher. Even though she ended up being in IT and was an IT leader until she retired from her job. So, I think a little bit of it is in my DNA. Then, my story kind of took a different trajectory to kind of land me where I'm at.
[0:02:53] JR: What was the different trajectory? Give us the Reader's Digest version of that story.
[0:02:58] MPG: Yes. So, as I was graduating from high school, I became a young mom and I still graduated on time, still pursued my undergraduate degree, graduated. Actually, finished before many of my friends. I didn't have the responsibilities that I had with my son. But really what helped kind of stay, keep me on the course of that, was first and foremost a foundation of faith. Second, my family and village. But then third, none of the folks in my education ecosystem ever doubted that my path or abilities, and these were, you mentioned, the 12th grade teachers, they were appointed during that time, because that's when I initially was going through this situation.
But even as I got to college and beyond, folks from all walks of life, some that looked like me, some that did not, and everything in between, they just never doubted my potential, period. And neither did my family. Then, as I became, I would say, more focused on my faith walk, I then internalize that, because sometimes people can believe in us, but if we don't believe what God has put in us, when we encounter those types of circumstances that could derail us. I recognize that I may not be what the average person in that situation manifests to be, but I too, had to believe it.
[0:04:20] JR: That's good. Is it part of the reason why you were drawn to the work of Teach for America? Actually, let's back up for a second. I don't want to assume that our listeners know what Teach for America is. So, just set the table for us there. What is Teach for America?
[0:04:36] MPG: Yes. Teach For America has been around for over 30 years, and it’s really an organization that focuses on securing and finding the best talent across the nation, and really asking them to make a lifetime commitment to education and our mission to ensure that every child has access to excellent education. We ask people to start that by making a commitment to do two years in the classroom. We are a federal AmeriCorps program. So very similar to like the Peace Corps and other programs that you might encounter. But we asked for them to make that commitment to two years in the classroom when they join us. And then they become an alumni of the program.
So, kind of think about college. You're with us forever, so we support you throughout your trajectory. Many folks continue in the classroom beyond their two-year commitment. But we're also focused on developing leaders as well. Whether that's the leader in the classroom, or the leader in a school, or the leader of a school system, or everything in between, we know that good teachers work for good leaders, just like in the workplace, and we know the impact of a strong school or systems leader on the ability to retain teachers as well. We really kind of work on the whole continuum of talent, which sets us apart.
[0:05:47] JR: Is your story part of the reason why you're so passionate about this work?
[0:05:50] MPG: Absolutely. I've been at Teach for America a little over two years. But prior to that, the majority of my career is in higher education, even though I started right out of college in business. So, I've crossed industries. But after I got out of corporate, which was actually through a layoff, that I got redirected to education. When I came out of college, I had an internship at a theater software company. I'm like, “I'm making good money. I got a job offer before I'm leaving.” Then, the Lord, through a series of events, redirected me to what I feel now was my ultimate calling.
[0:06:19] JR: I love it. Why is Teach for America needed? Educate our listeners on the problem. We know what Teach for America does. But why is this such a critical problem? And why should Christians care deeply about this problem?
[0:06:34] MPG: Yes. Absolutely, I think that from a Christian perspective, I think the alignment with the mission of making sure that everyone has what they need. So, every child has access to excellent education. Some kids have that inherently and some kids don't. But we know from a society perspective, we talk about the love that we should have for people and our neighbors and folks that are around us that we may or may not know, every child deserves that. A big component of that is the folks that are leading in your classrooms, and the folks that are leading in your schools and beyond.
As Christians, we should deeply care about this, because the kids today are going to be the people leading us tomorrow, taking care of us tomorrow, and making really, really high-stakes decisions for us tomorrow. So, having the right folks teaching, who have a love of that and want to make sure that education is accessible to all is the right heart for that. That's why Teach for America is for sure needed, because we need to consistently be looking for the best talent to make sure that they are centered in this field.
[0:07:40] JR: Yes. It's good. One of my best friends, Christy Adams was on the podcast a couple of months ago, talking about her work as a middle school teacher in the public school system. She has been there for, I don't know, 15, 17 years, something like that. And she said that she sees her choice of teaching in public schools instead of private schools as an act of justice. I love the way she framed that. Do you agree that Christians choosing to work in the public-school system can be a way of following Micah 6:8 and doing justice in our communities?
[0:08:12] MPG: Yes. It's ironic that you said that. The coffee mug that I'm drinking out of has Micah 6:8 on it right now.
[0:08:18] JR: There we go.
[0:08:19] MPG: Yes. I think it is. But I think also there's many other fields. We're honing in on education right now. But when I think of fields of public service because we all know that there are other fields that we could potentially be pursuing. That could be a little bit more lucrative, especially than that. I think that's a different conversation about that for teachers. But I do see it as that and those that do choose public service. I know for me, even though I have a love for it now, the Lord had to redirect me to education. It was not something I came out of college, hot off the press, ready to engage, even though I'm very aligned with that. So, I definitely identify with her sentiments, for sure.
[0:09:03] JR: What did the Lord do in your heart to that end, though? You got laid off, but like your resume is off the charts, like totally off the charts. You got all this business experience? You are an Aspen Presidential Fellow. You are not having a hard time getting a job post lay-off. What was the Lord doing in your heart that was like, “Hey, Monique. I'm going to channel you to something way less lucrative and you're going to be cool with that.” What happened?
[0:09:31] MPH: Yes. I laugh now, because we had moments where you're like, “Lord, help.” So, I was in the corporate workforce, and I got laid off during the 2008 recession. When a lot of that hit, and at the time, the company I got laid off from wants to have a severance. I had my son at the time. So, I was a young single mom, but like, I was not in dire straits. So, I was very thankful and blessed to have that. My intent was to go right back into the corporate field and I was getting calls and people are like, “Hey, I got some leads”, those kinds of things.
About six months prior, a mentor of mine at the time, I had just finished my Master's Degree in Communications. She was like, “You know what, you will be a great college instructor. You've been a working parent. You actually are doing what you've actually learned academically. So, you have both lenses of experiences.” I was like, No. I'm good on school. I just finished my master's degree. I'm good on school right now.” And she kept nudging me.
Long story short, she actually had it such that I was applying for positions. So, I got a position. I was teaching one night a week at a local community college. And when I got laid off, and I started getting calls for interviews for other jobs. I literally would feel sick to my stomach talking to people about that. At the time, I didn't know why. Shortly after that, one of my students, unfortunately, was a victim of violence in his neighborhood. I remember looking back and talking to his family at the time about some of the impact of him being in my freshman seminar class at the time. The combination of those things, now, I know it was the Lord disrupting my spirit. So, I was feeling uncomfortable, because I was like, this is the money I left. I got laid off. And then I'm looking at these education salaries. I'm like, “Lord, this math ain’t mathing. This is not working. Lord, help.” I had worked really hard. I grew up in a middle-class, upper middle-class lifestyle. I wanted to provide the same for my son. I worked very hard to do that and was at that place. And it was just like, I couldn't. I had to stop taking the calls.
So, I decided, I was like, “Lord,” I was prayerful. I did not want to. I'm going to be real. I accept it now. But I want to be real from a Christian perspective, because I was focused on the monetary. And I would have to take a pay cut to go into serving as a full-time faculty member initially. Now, I had the leadership experience to move into administration. But that's not where I was starting. So, just to condense the story. I ended up moving into a role full time at a college. I took a pay cut. A couple years later, the college reorganized. I got into administration, and I would say, by the time that I left the college before I had taken this role, that had been redeemed, and so much more, and my path accelerated. It was just very much ordained, all of the experiences, all of the tools all came together. But I had to take that leap of faith and trust him initially. I didn't miss a bill. I didn't miss a beat. I had a house at the time. My house was bigger. I mean, like none of that.
Now, that I learned some couponing, but I didn't miss a beat. My son didn't miss a beat. Actually, he was in private school at the time. My son ended up doing a mix of public and private school, didn't miss a beat. The Lord provided and honored me taking that step. But I want to be real in the fact that I wrestled with it.
[0:13:13] JR: No, it's good. Even if it didn't lead to promotions, and more monetary blessing in the future, your act of faithfulness in the present would have led to eternal reward. Because a lot of people like, “Hey, I felt the Lord's leading. I've taken that leap and it hasn't panned out economically, materially.” Hey, listen, that's not guaranteed. That's prosperity gospel theology. But what is guaranteed is when we are obedient to the Lord, when we're working unto the Lord, there are eternal blessings and eternal rewards to be sure. So, that's a great encouragement to our listeners, Monique.
All right. Hey. So, we've been talking a lot about how your faith influences what you do vocationally. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about how the gospel influences how you do what you do. I loved in your pre-interview, you quoted your aunt as saying, “It's better to live a sermon than to preach a sermon.” What about how you work leaves people asking questions to which Jesus is the only answer?
[0:14:21] MPG: Yes. My Aunt Lina is the famous person –
[0:14:22] JR: God bless, Aunt Linda.
[0:14:23] MPG: Yes, about that. And she very much lives her sermon, is a great example. So, I think that there's a couple of factors. I think the story I just told you, I've had to become a lot more comfortable with sharing what we call the Christian realm testimony, in a way that – because depending on what chapter you walk into someone's life professionally or get to know them, you may feel like there has not been a level of struggle, possible derailment, all of those things, because you just walked in on chapter 20, but you may not have been there through the 1 through 20.
So, I try to, when I can, lift that up, as a way to show kind of what I feel my story is riddled with grace, redemption, and faith, and those are the themes of the story. And I see the opportunities and to your point, they're not just for the economic, may or may not come. That's not the leading factor. But the opportunities are a result of that. Because very much every step of the way, the Lord positioned what I call Kingdom connections, whether those people were a faith or not. Sometimes I might not have known whether the person was a person of faith or not sure, and kingdom circumstances to orchestrate things where there was no other way, either the timing of it, how it happened, or how quickly it came together. It was nothing but God.
[0:15:54] JR: Yes.
[0:15:54] MPG: So, I think when I'm able to tell people the details, because it's not me, and I very much view any position that God puts me in as the mantle, and I'm there in service of him. I'm there not to center myself. He's given me gifts, so that I can be effective. Because I do believe you work on to the Lord, and I do think Christians should operate at a level of excellence of who we represent. I don't think that the church and Christians should be poor really run organization. I think we should be an example to that. So, I try to balance those two things in how I work, but also that the gifting that I have, does not come for me. It is purely a divine gifting. So, I often refer to like spiritual gifts. Those are my spiritual gifts or like we say in the workplace, “Oh, this person has great judgment and instincts. I call it discernment.”
I pray before, when I do my morning routine, before I start work, I pray for radical discernment. Lord, give me radical discernment and any decision, judgment, or anything that comes my way. So, I pray for those things to manifest in the work realm.
[0:17:09] JR: That's good. I want to circle back to where you started the answer. I thought it was really, really insightful. You're talking about being transparent about your testimony, which, listen, that's got to be scary, especially in a professional context, right? To be transparent about the hard parts of your story. But when you are, man, that just makes no sense by the world’s standards. Why would you tell chapter five of your story when it doesn't put you in a good light? And your answer is because it makes Jesus the hero of the story. That's just totally countercultural, right?
[0:17:42] MPG: Absolutely. I think we make assumptions about people. I think a lot of times, when you see people in snippets, you don't know what's behind that. What I had to learn as I've matured, I have not always done that, where it's not like the first time I meet somebody like, “Hey, let me tell you my testimony.” That’s not how, right? Because as Christians, we've got to calibrate how we do those things.
But I will mention like, “Hey, I had a young son and I will open the door to share some of the things that could have been more adverse circumstances for me, if not for the Lord, and how the conditions he put me in, and if not for my faith.” Because I also think it's important that people not just see the people that surrounded me, but saw the level of personal individual responsibility I took for my faith walk, and how it doesn't matter how much can be orchestrated for you, there's a role you play as an individual in owning your own faith walk, and maturing in that. I often tell people that I'm a lot more mature than I was. The Lord is still working on me. So, I'm a lot more mature than I was then. But I just put one foot in front of another.
A lot of times, people think your level of maturity, they have to ride that yesterday, depending on where they are in their faith walk. I often tell people just like one foot, just walk, just stay on the path, and you will get there.
[0:19:12] JR: That's good. From the outside looking in, one of the ways I think the gospel shapes your work is that it leads you to be a force multiplier. You had a mentor call you that in the past, a force multiplier. Somebody who makes the people around them better, right? That's really rare in my experience, because most people are just focused on their role, keep their heads down, doing their job. It takes time. It takes sacrifice to make others around you better. I'm curious what resources you think you have as a Christ follower, that you've got unique access to, that enables you to sacrifice time and energy to make those you work with better?
[0:19:54] MPG: Yes. That's a great question. I had not thought that until somebody told me that and then I had to kind of reflect anyway. Yes, that is right, the majority of the time. I would say first and foremost it’s a mindset. I think mindset is just so critical to so many different things, and a mindset of servant leadership, where my job as a leader, especially those of us that are in roles where we have to be the face or part of the gift, and part of what we have to do and engage, is that we might be more publicly associated with the work and the output. But my role is to develop and grow people, the way that I was grown and developed. I really see when I look back at my journey, part of the reason why I was able to accelerate in so many ways and points is because there were people that were committed to me, to do that, even though they didn't announce it. They didn't come to me and say, “Hey, I'm going to do” – I truly see myself as that. And that looks different, right?
But I think sometimes we think Christians is all affirmation, and sometimes it's a constructive, with love, kind of orientation to help people get better. One of my leadership values very much is authenticity. So, I do tend to bring a level of candor to my leadership, that can shift people in different ways. But I think is so, so important, and I see is a gap sometimes with people in their potential.
[0:21:22] JR: Talk more about that. What do you mean by candor, right? How do you see that as a means of loving those you work with and helping them get better what they do?
[0:21:33] MPG: Yes, I don't think you'd love someone and not tell them the truth.
[0:21:35] JR: I agree.
[0:21:35] MPG: I don't think everything always needs to be said. So, I think it's the – I think, who says it, where, when, and it’s like in a marriage, like the same kind of things. But I think sometimes people make assumptions that Christians are only going to say things that are positive or not speak constructively. That's not the example that we have in the Bible by any stretch of imagination, or that Christians don't get angry, or don't have emotions, that's not the Biblically-based by any stretch of the imagination at all. It's just the way that we do it is different.
So, that looks like pragmatically. If there's a staff member that I'm working alongside, and there's constructive feedback. I'm not going to do that to them publicly. It's going to be a private, conversation, that is going to deliver in a constructive, yet, respectful way, but also doesn't dishonor them as a human being. I have seen individuals that do that publicly or do that in ways that's dishonoring. So, I think as Christians, if we love people, we have to tell people the truth. When we don't tell people the truth, that actually hurts them more, in my personal opinion, than it does when we do. But we've got to be very thoughtful and prayerful about what, who, when, and I always think about that. I'll be sitting at my desk resume and say a quick prayer. I think also people think Christian is like, I'm sitting there with my head down for 30 minutes. Sometimes it's like, “Lord, give me the words. Lord, tell me what you want to release me to say this.” Because sometimes God doesn't release me to say something. I've had to learn that too, where it's like, I know it, it may be the truth. But he's like, “I'm not releasing you to say that right now.”
Or sometimes it's like, a conversation might happen that I didn't anticipate, and he's like, “Now's, the time, you need to deliver that information.” Because that might be the time that the Lord has softened the person's heart or circumstances to receive it, because I can deliver it. But if you're not in the posture to receive it, then it's not going to do what the Lord wants it to do.
[0:23:43] JR: Yes. So, if I can put words in your mouth, basically saying, “Hey, listen. Christians are going to lean into candor, because candor is a form of love.” But we're going to be really prayerful about when we deliver that candor, deliver that hard thing that we need to say, and certainly, where we do it privately, and how we do it, as a way of addressing the issue but not demeaning that other image bearer as a person. Is that fair?
[0:24:08] MPG: Correct. It's kind of like we talked about when you are correcting children. You're correcting that behavior. It's not the child themselves. And I think it's the same way. I think we just have to always be prayerful about those things and anything that we say and do aligns with what he wants to do, because you never know how he's using us, as a vessel, in many different ways.
[0:24:31] JR: But I do think Christians should be more candid than non-Christians. Not just equally candid, right? Because candor is a form of love. I think about Proverbs 27:5 a lot. It says, “Better is open rebuke than hidden love.” Those are the two things contrast. And then Leviticus, I think it's Leviticus 19. God says, “Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly.” The opposite of hate is not niceness. Sometimes it's a rebuke giving critical feedback, but loving feedback as a way of being a force multiplier and loving our neighbors yourself, and helping them develop in all that God created them to be. Right?
[0:25:16] MPG: Absolutely. I think the more that we normalize candor, the less it seems so abnormal, and it doesn't become so high stakes, because we actually grow from all kinds of feedback. I always tell people, like, “Please tell me.” Because I want to know early, so I can adjust and redirect or whatever – I don't want to wait until the molehill becomes a mountain, because it's a lot harder to actually address things. I've seen that with people where along the way, they may not have received the candor. Then, by the time, the stakes are higher, or it's just grown so much, and that's not helping. That's not helping people. If we also have orientation of service, in our leadership, and in our work, I think that's all the reason why, to your point, we should be more candid. Why sometimes people assume we should not be. I'm not sure about that. But I do you think that's an assumption that's out there.
[0:26:15] JR: Did you read No Rules Rules by Reed Hastings and Erin Meyer?
[0:26:18] MPG: No. I need to add that to my book list.
[0:26:19] JR: It’s really great. It's probably my most recommended business book in the last 10 years. Reed is the CEO of Netflix, and it's basically just a whole book around how Netflix's culture works. There's a huge section in there all about candor, and how to deliver candor in an excellent way. Not really from a Christian point of view, but by God's common grace, a really, really helpful resource for those looking to go deeper on this. Radical Candor by Kim Scott is also a really good resource on this.
[0:26:51] MPG: Absolutely.
[0:26:51] JR: Is that your favorite on this topic?
[0:26:52] MPG: Yes, yes. I'm actually looking at that book on my bookshelf right now.
[0:26:55] JR: That's awesome. I love it. I love it. Hey, I want to circle back to something you said a few minutes ago. You talked about Teach for America's vision, that one day, all students will receive an excellent an equitable education. Amen. All about it. But, man, you and I both know, our listener knows that until Christ returned to complete the renewal of all things, there will likely always be a gap between that vision and the reality of the present. And we're going to make progress, right? But there's always going to be a gap. How do you work hard to close that gap, while realizing that it may never be fully closed? What's it like to work in the gap between that vision and that reality?
[0:27:39] MPG: That’s a good question, I think with anything you do, and the Bible also talks about vision and around leadership, too, you have to have a North Star aspiration. Period. You have to have that. People are galvanized by that. People are fired by that. And there's always a problem to be solved, or a problem to be addressed. I think that when you think about the importance of education, there's another element of an exponential benefit to that. So, I talked about earlier about the young kids today are the folks that are going to be making decisions for many of us, taking care of us tomorrow, the exponential effect of a sound education on a child's life, whatever direction they go into, once they finish their traditional K-12. Whether that's military, whether that's Community College, whatever that looks like, whatever that set of gifts. The contribution to the communities in which they can make as a citizen, as a participant in their community, but also as whatever version of family they decide to make for themselves, whether that's as a single person in their walk, or as someone that has a family. The effects of society on that, that go way beyond education are exponential.
What I hold on to is, making sure one kid has that affects so many other people. Education is one of those fields that does that. That helps in re-centering, knowing that we can close the gaps, to your point, but the North Star may not be achieved in our human lifetime experience. But you have to hold on to that, which is why for me, I have to – people, you mentioned this earlier, at the top of the podcast. I have people approached me about like, “Well, why didn't you do this? Or why didn't you do that? Or you could have done that?” Even when people call me about opportunities still, I have to be aligned with opportunities that center impact, point blank, full stop.
So, it's really important. And not mean to say that people don't make impacts in their various vocational capacities, but there's a level of impact that I have to be centered on, at this stage of my walk, unless the Lord directs me differently, that’s super important to my continued motivation for this work and the energy that I'm able to assign to it.
[0:30:12] JR: Yes. There's something powerful about playing an infinite game to quote Simon Sinek’s book, called The Infinite Game. It's, you know this game is never going to end until Christ return, and that can be demoralizing, but it can also be terrifically motivating, right? Because, “Oh, this is so big and so audacious that the Lord's going to use this vision to fire me up to get out of bed every single morning and do the work that I believe is on God's heart for society.” That's an incredibly motivating thing. Proverbs 29:18 says, “Where there is no vision the people perish.” When you go a really audacious vision. Man, people thrive in that. Amen?
[0:30:54] MPG: Amen. Yes, I agree. Oftentimes, I know, sometimes we join, but leadership is hard. If you are really leading, I tell my staff, a lot of times when we have leadership conversations around, there are a lot of leaders by title in the world. Their various vocation. If you think about how many leaders are really great leaders, transformative leaders, that's a small percentage of that. I also believe that people don't have to have a formal title to lead. I was thinking as a leader, before I came, became a formal leader by title, and when you really are all in on it, because you also have to make sure you're continuing to develop yourself. Because the more the leader develops, the people get better. Because if you aren't growing people, then you got to continue to grow yourself, because that's important.
So, leadership can be tough. You got to make tough calls. We talked about candor earlier. Sometimes people have to leave the organization. Sometimes you got to make budget decisions. I've had to do all of that. So, leadership can be tough, and so you need that vision and that inspiration to even hold on for yourself in the tough times. I think sometimes people don't see in some leaders often. I think we just kind of go through the motions.
[0:32:14] JR: Yes. That's good. Yes, it's related something you said in your pre-interview that your faith enables you to, “Operate, overcome, and adapt as a leader, in a variety of situations that some of your counterparts have a hard time understanding.” Can you think of an example of that?
[0:32:33] MPG: Yes. I had a situation in a previous role a number of years ago, where my boss at the time for a short period of time, was, for lack of better terms, bullying me. We went from having a very strong relationship, this is a person that hired me, so it wasn't like, “Oh, well, this new leader got hired, or they inherited a team that they might not have.” They hired me, supported me, and there was a point in which there was a workplace decision that my boss made, that they asked me to be involved in, that from an ethical perspective, like not financial or anything like that. But just from a – it was a people related decision. That while I wanted to honor the fact that this is a person that supervising me, I need to make sure I'm following them.
I know there’s a biblical foundation for that. It borderlined on my values. I expressed that in a professional and constructive way. From that point on, the relationship deteriorated quickly. I then found out because I had just started working for this person, that there were other counterparts that had experienced that from the boss at the time, but I had not seen it because I was not working in the area. Sometimes you don't know until you get closer to a department. I then had to figure out how I was going to navigate it, while also protecting the people that work for me at the time. Because it freed them to then express what they have been experiencing before I even got there.
So, I really had to lean into my faith at that time to make sure that I was grounded and centered to the point that could be, because I've been had to also steward a team that clearly had been challenged by this leadership.
[0:34:20] JR: Yes. I can imagine many listeners nodding their heads who have been through similar situations. I've heard this story or a similar version of the story many, many times. How do you think a Christ follower in engages in something like that, in a distinct way? What’s different about how you engage that situation than a non-Christian counterpart?
[0:34:39] MPG: Yes. Actually, the time that I built some of the habits that serve me today that I did not have. I was a lot more prayerful time in prayer. I would wake up in the morning, number of years ago, working remote or hybrid. I was going to an office every day and I didn't want to go. And it was less about the work. I love the people that I work with and I loved what I was doing. It was the leader. I was mourning the fact that like, this was the first time in my career that I did not want to go to work. We all have days where like I'm tired. I wasn't that. It was literally the dread of that. And I was drained. My spirit was drained.
I started a routine of deeper prayer and devotion in the morning before work, in a disciplined way that I hadn't before. I've always been a praying person, but really giving God the first time. In the morning, I started the practice of journaling, in a way where it's like, I'm really just kind of writing to God, and that kind of level of communication. I started devouring a number of books on faith. I've always been an avid reader, but really introduced that in a different, and just tried to consume as much as I could at the time. That helped me keep me afloat in a way that once certain people knew what happened after the fact, they were like, “I cannot see how you were able to do this, or do that, or be at this event.” And I was able to say it was God. When my strength ends, his wind and strength began, always.
[0:36:17] JR: Amen.
[0:36:19] MPG: So, I was riding on that, during that period of time. It was not me. I am a strong person. But my strength does not equal to His. And He equipped me to walk through that season, but to also be in a position to help others walk through that season, as well. I realized through that morning devotional time, not only there's that verse [inaudible 0:36:43] talks about do your trials and, and all that. And I would always pray like, “Lord give me a way of escape.” He had to tell me like, “I may not be providing a way for you to escape.” Like, “How I deliver you out of this situation may not look the way that you” – and it didn't. So, the leader transitioned and I stayed and my team stayed, and we ended up growing exponentially after that.
[0:37:06] JR: Wow. I love that so much. James 1:2, “Consider pure joy whenever you face trials of many kinds”, including this situation, “because that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.” And in your case, Monique, it also produced an opportunity for you to boast in your weakness and God's strength to those that you work with. So, blessed to be the name of the Lord for that trial. Nobody wishes that trial. May God use that trial for his glory in your good. Amen?
[0:37:37] MPG: Amen. Absolutely. And it strengthens – we talked about professional growth spurts. That was a fake growth spurt for me, very much so. A lot of the practices, a lot of what was in my heart at that time, serves me very well today, such that when trials do happen at times, the way that I walk through them, or the way that I engage with them, not mean to say, “Oh, this is a cakewalk.” But because I went through that, I kind of immediately know how I can handle that, walk through it, because I've been through those things. Again, we don't wish, but it does equip us for the next stages that God might put us on, and things that we might encounter that may not look the same. But it equips us with the tools to walk through them.
[0:38:26] JR: Amen. And walk others through them. That's the beauty of this, right? God is sanctifying us, teaching us through trial so that we can better prepare for the next trial and come alongside somebody who's going through that trial right now, and serve them as they're going through that and pointing them to God's goodness in his love.
Hey, Monique, we initially connected over a post he made on LinkedIn about my book, Redeeming Your Time. By the way, pro tip, if you're one of the podcasts, just I don't know, post something extravagant about the book, and you're going to go to the top of my producer’s list. Okay. I loved your posts about that book. I'm just curious. What about that book? What about how Jesus managed his time has most influenced how you manage your time leading this incredible organization?
[0:39:12] MPG: Yes. It is one of my favorites. I've recommended it to a lot of people, which is why it was on that list. I think that we all talk about time management time, whatever you want to call it. One of the common questions I get from people a lot is how do you do all that you do? I think with anything, what I've learned over the years, you have to have an intentionality around it, and you've got to apply a practice around it and a level of discipline. And what I loved about your book is it kind of goes back to that story I told you about where I really started my voracious reader in me really started looking for books that intersected like my love of reading about work and leadership with faith.
It really provided a mixture of some provocations that I think are rounded in pragmatic ways in the workplace, which is what I really have drawn to your work around that, because I see the balance in that. And sometimes like, you know, people think of Christian is like, we're sitting at work like being in vow all the time. That's not what I'm doing. That kind of thing. Also, the affirmations of some things that I had started doing that like, okay, this is validation of that. So, I think that our gift that God gives us and what he's charged is our mandates, we've got to manage our time to be able to execute on those things.
[0:40:49] JR: Yes, this is what Paul says is a part of our response to the gospel. That's what the book title came from. It's actually the New King James Version of Ephesians 5:16, where Paul says, “See then that you are carefully not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time because the days are evil.” Tim Keller commenting on that verse once said, “Time stewardship is a biblical command.” This is not a secular idea. Paul says, “It's part of our response to the Gospel.” And so, I'm just grateful that you are doing that and rolling up your sleeves and redeeming your time, Monique, because the days are evil.
Speaking of books, we wrap up every conversation, I love to know what our guests are reading. If we pulled up in your Amazon cart order history, what would we see you buying over and over and over again?
[0:41:33] MPG: Well, your book is one. I've actually recommended it to a number of our school leaders who are newer of faith, who are not aware of your work. So, they have as principals, leading schools of thousands of students, Redeeming Your Time, is definitely one. I would say, recently, I finished – so I tried to my practices, I read a faith book. I do my regular practice of reading the Bible, devotionals, that's kind of foundational. But in addition to that, I'm always reading a book around work, leadership, something along that realm, and then a book on faith, like in addition to like that.
I just finished reading, Believing Bigger by Marshawn, I think, Evans Daniels. I think that's her name.
[0:42:17] JR: Yes.
[0:42:18] MPG: I just finished reading that. And I just got in the mail, Adam Grant’s new book, Hidden Potential, I think the name of that. So, those are two that I just finished. And then I have a kid’s book that I have on my desk. That's like, it takes two minutes to read. But a staff member that's now on staff with us, when she interviewed, we were talking and she was asking me what my vision was and how I like to work and ideas. I said, “I like to think like there's no box.” And there's this children's book called Not a Box. So, I often like read that as just like, A, bringing me back to the childlike aspect of things. But also, as we think, in abundance, which at times within the workplace, we are contending with things that we're having to adjust here or whatever, but still maintaining that mindset of abundance. It gives me that kind of way to bring that back in a tangible way.
[0:43:20] JR: I love that so much. I love – you know you have a killer kid’s book when grownups gift it to other grownups or read it to other grownups. That’s the holy grail. That's what I strive for with my kid’s books. I like I love what do you do with an idea, I think is in that vein. It’s really good. I got to check out Not A Box. That's a great recommendation.
[0:43:43] MPG: Yes.
[0:43:43] JR: All right, Monique, who would you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?
[0:43:50] MPG: Hmm, that's a good question. I would say that I would love to hear from the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. Jamie Dimon. And from a faith perspective, Sarah Jakes Roberts.
[0:44:06] JR: Yes. That’s a good answer. Okay, great. I like that a lot. What's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off? And we're talking to a global audience of mere Christians across a variety of vocations, what do you want to leave them with?
[0:44:20] MPG: I think, always don't judge people by the chapter that you may see them on in their level of success. And to do not underestimate how the Lord can orchestrate people, circumstances, and conditions for his will. But also, to honor your desires of your heart. Both things can be true, and I think that's important for people to remember. Never give up the belief in that.
[0:44:47] JR: I lied. I got one more question, because I wrote down something earlier you said that I loved. You talking about seeing people in snippets. It’s basically what you're hitting on, right then, right? What do you do to ensure that you're not seeing your team just in snippets, but you're really getting to know the story of their life. What does it look like?
[0:45:07] MPG: Yes. This is hard. And it requires intention, especially because I work in a remote/hybrid environment. It means getting to know people to the extent that they feel comfortable, right? Because I think you also have to honor the fact that like, yes, it's important to get to know folks from a holistic perspective. But some people are not going to feel comfortable the first time you meet them, or as they're getting to work alongside you, sharing their complete life story. There are other people that will tell you that upon the first meeting.
So, I think providing the avenue for people to share, and to feel seen, and I tryto not be so busy. I don't always succeed at this. So, I will make it something I'm working on that even when micro moments where it's like, okay, somebody's taking off half a day for their child's birthday, to at least the next time I see them, ask them how that went, right? Even though I may not see we're not in an office like we used to be. So, I may not see it's, it's not like it used to be for many of us, not all of us. But some people have been working remote and hybrid for a number of years, where you would all return to the office and you would just walk by their door and there will be a natural set of conditions.
I say I'm working on this because it requires the shifting of a leader to have more intentionality around that. Because it could be two weeks before you encounter that person again. So, that's why I said I don't always succeed at it. But I'm working on becoming a little bit more mindful of that, because some people need that more than others. I personally don't need that as much as what others might need. But that goes back to the part of like, as a leader, that's your job to kind of be aware of that.
[0:46:45] JR: Yes. That's so good. That's so good. Dr. Perry-Graves, I want to commend you for the terrific work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. For your commitment to seeing beyond the snippets of people's stories, for your commitment to justice in our school systems. For boasting in your weakness for God's glory and the good of others. Hey, where's the best place for people to connect with you? Is it LinkedIn?
[0:47:06] MPG: Yes, LinkedIn is a good place. I also just launched my new newsletter that we call Lights and Lessons.
[0:47:14] JR: I’m a subscriber.
[0:47:15] MPG: So, I’m sharing this. Well, thank you. Thank you. I look forward to your feedback. But that also was a nudge too, people were like, “You need to share more. You need to share more.” So, we talked about sharing the testimony. All of that is rooted in some level of story.
Now, as a leader, sometimes, as I say, on television, you have to modify the names of the circumstances, but all of it is rooted in seeds of truth, and I hope can also be another avenue to serve him.
[0:47:41] JR: Yes, I saw that pop up on my LinkedIn feed. I was super excited about it. So, I'm subscribed to Lights and Lessons on LinkedIn by Dr. Monique Perry-Graves. You guys should subscribe too. Dr. Perry-Graves, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. I appreciate you.
[0:47:54] MPG: Thank you so much. And thank you for all of your good work, and I look forward to continuing to follow you and benefit from your gifts as well.
[OUTRO]
[0:48:01] JR: I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Hey, if you did, do me a favor and go leave a review of the Mere Christians Podcast wherever you're listening. If you're listening on Spotify, reply to the question we got there. We read all those responses. I'd love to hear what you thought about this episode. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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