Be Humble. Stay Hungry. Always Hustle.
Jordan Raynor sits down with Brad Lomenick, Former President of Catalyst, to talk about the difference between cultural and biblical hustle, how to be an exceptional, service-driven networker, and how to “crush The Now until you get to The Next.”
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[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I’m Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christ follower who is pursuing world-class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery. We talk about their daily habits and routines, and how their faith influences their work.
Guys, this is one of those episodes — I know an episode is going to be great when I just stop taking notes. I just forget to take notes and just get totally absorbed in the conversation. Today’s guest is my friend, Brad Lomenick, he’s the former president of Catalyst. Yes, that Catalyst, of Catalyst Conference Fame. He is also the author of a terrific book that came out a few years ago called H3 Leadership: Be Humble. Stay Hungry. Always Hustle.
Brad and I finally got a chance and sat down. We talked about the difference between culture’s definition of hustle and how we, as Christ followers, can think about the same concept of hustle. We talked about how to be an exceptional, service-driven networker, or as Brad likes to call, connector, and we talked about how to crush the now while you’re in a waiting period. We’re in an in between period between now and whatever is next, for you, and your career, and the call that God has in your life. You guys are going to love this terrific conversation with my friend, Brad Lomenick.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:48] JR: Brad Lomenick, I’m so excited you’re here, man. Thanks for being here.
[00:01:50] BL: Jordan, listen. Long-time listener, first-time caller, right?
[00:01:53] JR: Long time listener. So, speaking of first-time caller, what’s been your favorite episode?
[00:02:01] BL: Oh gosh!
[00:02:02] JR: Do you have a favorite?
[00:02:03] BL: Well, I mean, we were just talking before you hit record and you mentioned some of the ones that I have listened, the Horst Schulze. I mean, I’m a big fan of Horst Schulze.
[00:02:14] JR: Love Horst.
[00:02:15] BL: I think because of some of the travel — when you actually are able to be a part of or experience the product, and then you hear somebody talk about the way they develop the product. I don’t stay at Ritz-Carlton’s often, but I have been to events and different things where I was able to stay at a Ritz-Carlton, and it –
[00:02:39] JR: I was actually reading Excellence Wins at a Ritz-Carlton, which is a really fun experience. I was like going downstairs, like testing out stuff. Like with the concierge. “Oh my God! Is this real? Do they really do things like this?” Especially when I travel for business, I never stay at the Ritz. I stay at a La Quinta.
[00:02:58] BL: Right, La Quinta. Shout out for La Quinta.
[00:03:02] JR: That’s right. Shout out for La Quinta. But with my bride, yeah, we try to stay at Ritz or Fairmont or something like that when we can. It’s not always possible. Hey, people, if they recognize your name, Brad Lomenick, they probably recognize you from one of two things. Your terrific book from a few years ago, H3 Leadership, or back in the day when you were president and executive director of, you know, little known brand called Catalyst. For the two or three people listening who don’t know what Catalyst is, what’s Catalyst?
[00:03:34] BL: Well, it is and was a movement. I would call it that. I mean, I’m slow to call things movements, because especially if there’s a spiritual component. That’s usually God breathed and you can’t control a movement or you can’t be in charge of actually building a movement if you’re waiting on God to breath on it. But for some reason he did for 15 or 20 years. We started it in 2000, connected to John Maxwell. A bunch of us were in our 20s and we were hanging around John, and we said, “Hey John, what if we did something for us, like for actually our generation? We love hanging out with your peers, but would you give us a shot at that?” Of course, he said, “Yeah, let’s go. Let’s do something for young leaders.”
We built an original event in 2000 that I think 1,500 leaders showed up to, which is not, you know, that’s a good start. We were in the event space so we knew how to put on events. But the thing that I think was unique, Jordan, was that we looked around the room and said, “Okay, we’ve got something here.” Meaning that there was this group of leaders who were same age, same stage of life, sort of same mindset, same mentality, same approach to innovation, same futuristic thinking, and it just felt like there was this spark of something pretty unique.
[00:04:58] JR: I want you to drill down on this, because I think a lot of times, for entrepreneurs, it’s hard to know in the early stage what’s working and what’s not, like, what? Obviously, you’re measuring numbers, you’re measuring 1,500 attendees. But what was it about that first event, maybe the second event, third event, that you’re like, “Oh, there’s fruit that’s going to grow here, this is fertile soil”?
[00:05:20] BL: Well, a couple of things. One, there was a mentality just, let’s — there was such energy and energy is hard to measure, but it’s easy to feel. Like when you’re around it, you know it, right?
[00:05:33] JR: You know when you see it as the Supreme Court —
[00:05:34] BL: Yeah, exactly. It’s kind like culture. When you run a great culture, sometimes you can’t actually describe it, but you just go, “Oh, it’s a great culture.”
[00:05:40] JR: Yeah.
[00:05:41] BL: That was a big part of it and it definitely was focused on a certain age and stage of leader. We were pretty clear with our marketing and with our approach. In some ways, we turned away older leaders, and we basically said, “It’s not for you. We love you, but if you’re over 40, you’re not really welcome.” Because we narrowed our focus, it actually made it unique and customized, which — that’s one of the mistakes a lot of us do as leaders and entrepreneurs as we, when somebody says, “Who’s your customer?” and you say, “Well, everyone.” Wrong answer.
[00:06:17] JR: Wrong answer.
[00:06:18] BL: That was a big part of it. I think also, there was just the sense of wanting to do something as a community. We didn’t know some of the language around building a tribe. I mean, it was eight years later until Seth Godin wrote the book, Tribes, when we started. But there was this sense of, this is a group of people, as Seth says, “We gather and we do things like us for people like us,” right? I mean, there was just that sense that we could actually make a difference here. We could actually move the needle. We could, I don’t want to say change the world, but it’s one thing to gather, it’s one thing to be inspired and listen to speakers and show up in the same room and look around and go, “This has got energy.” It’s another thing then, that when you look around and go, “We can actually do something. Like we can actually make a dent.”
We didn’t know how to necessarily manifest that yet, but there was a sense of, “Okay. If thousands of leaders are gathering, who all are pointing in the same direction, what kind of things can we get done for our generation?” Those were few of the things that I would say describe the early days of Catalyst.
[00:07:32] JR: Yeah, I get that. Two things I want to do drill down on into that, right? One is this idea of exclusivity. I just want to make sure our listeners hear this loud and clear. No product is for everybody. No book is for everybody. No podcast is for everybody. That’s why the very first word of every episode of this podcast is, “This is a podcast for Christians.” Like, this isn’t going to make sense if you’re not apprenticing yourself to Jesus Christ, right? If you’re not a follower of Christ, I’m thrilled you’re here, right?
[00:08:06] BL: Yeah, sure.
[00:08:07] JR: But this isn’t primarily for you. Second thing I want to put out is this idea of energy, because I’ve sense this so many times in my career as an entrepreneur. It’s the unquantifiable thing. It’s not a key result that you can measure, right, but it is a very real thing for a company. I would even argue with individuals, right? I’m thinking of a story I heard once of Jeff Bezos, in the early days of Amazon. John Doerr before he made his investment in Amazon, showed up to the Amazon headquarters and he tells us a story about how Jeff Bezos just came barreling down the stairs, right? So excited to see John, shook his hand, and John Doerr was like, “The minute I met Jeff Bezos and saw his energy and passion for what he was doing, I knew I wanted to be in business with Jeff Bezos.” It was for entrepreneurs, for leaders, for anyone regardless of what your career is. There is something to that.
I got that feedback a lot from investors. It’s like, “Oh, you’re just so energetic.” I didn’t know what to do with that. I’m like, “Cool.” Like, this is like who I am. I’m excited about what we’re doing, but it is an asset, right? You guys have all this energy early on at Catalyst at that first event. You’re there for — how many years were you running Catalyst day to day?
[00:09:22] BL: Well, I started really sort of officially stepping in and running things in 2004, 2005, somewhere in there, and I was leading it for the next decade. I stepped out in 2014 to — well, we can go into that if you want to, but for a number of reasons, and handed it off, then went onto doing other stuff. Still stayed involved as president emeritus, which means you don’t have any role, you just show beneath the peanuts in the green room.
[00:09:52] JR: Oh yeah, it’s like being Chairman of the Board.
[00:09:55] BL: Exactly, yeah.
[00:09:56] JR: I know that role well. In that 10-year period, Catalyst went from what to what?
[00:10:04] BL: Yeah. Initially, we were doing one event in Atlanta with 3,000, 4,000, it kept growing. We moved it to a larger venue in 2008. We were doing that annually, while also trying to create content and build a little bit more of a community and a connection point throughout the year. In 2008, we launched into doing other events around the country. We went to the West Coast, we went to Dallas, we went to the Midwest, Chicago. We started doing one days and really like up our game in terms of going from one even to I think, 2012 or 2013, at some point in there, we were doing like 12 events a year.
[00:10:48] JR: Geez!
[00:10:49] BL: We were early in the podcast game, speaking of podcasts, since we’re on one. We launched the Catalyst Podcast in 2005. I think we were in the top 10 on all of iTunes because nobody else was on. There’s nobody else in the game at that point.
[00:11:02] JR: Nobody is in the game. That’s amazing.
[00:11:06] BL: Again, saying you build community or you built this tribe. There was hundreds of thousands of leaders that I would say at some point that they would’ve described — if you would have said to them, “Hey, are you connected with Catalyst?” They would have said, “Yeah, definitely.” Then you say, “What does that mean?” They might say, “Well, I’m on their email list,” or “I listen to their podcast,” or “I’ve been to an event before,” or “I met the guys who run it,” or “I get their content. I go to their website. We use some of their curriculum.” Because we had to start pushing out into other areas as we continue to build it with, at that time, DVD curriculum, right?
We were taking just this approach of, if we continue to build the funnel, we know that only a percentage are going to show up to something. So, we’d better be really intentional about continuing to offer different onramps onto the interstate and make sure that we’re not just making the only offer an event. Because even when we started and as we got into it, Jordan, we started the sense, especially with the 1% of leaders. Like the true innovators on the curve. I can’t remember the name of the curve, but that 1% who are truly out in front. About seven or eight years into it, they decided they didn’t want to necessarily show up to an event anymore, unless they were invited to the back greenroom or they were among the cool kids’ club or they were speaking.
Not because they were anti-event, it just no longer did them showing up to a large gathering with thousands of leaders necessarily feel like the thing that they should be doing. They might come with their team, they might bring their team, but we just started the sense that it’s continued. I mean, 12, 13 years later as we sit here in 2020, the event landscape is significantly changed. Where I’m putting a lot of my energy right now into small, curated, invite-only, very topical, and everybody wants to know who else is going to be there. It didn’t even matter what we say we’re talking about, right?
[00:13:17] JR: Yes. Correct. Yes. It’s why during COVID, right? I was supposed to go to a couple of events here, supposed to speak to a couple of events this year. Obviously, all that’s been canceled. You immediately get these emails like, “Oh, we’ll like transfer your registration to like a virtual event.” It’s like, “No, thanks.” I’m just not —
[00:13:35] BL: Not interested.
[00:13:36] JR: That’s not why I go to events. Like I don’t go to events for content, I go to events for community. Content can be delivered anywhere at any time. I think it’s going to be interesting to watch the big event organizers pivot the model of events. I think you’re onto something. I think that smaller curated gathering, I think that’s going to be a big deal.
Brad, you mentioned launching a podcast in 2005, which is mind-boggling to me. You just launched a new podcast recently.
[00:14:05] BL: Yes.
[00:14:06] JR: What’s the name of the podcast? Is it the H3 Leadership Podcast?
[00:14:08] BL: Yeah, H3 Leadership Podcast. I’m 15 years late on that one.
[00:14:12] JR: Fifteen years. That’s how I felt when we launched this last year. Better late than never. You’ve interviewed some amazing leaders. I’m curious, what have you learned if you were to boil it down to one, two, three things? What are the keys to exceptional leadership that cut across industry, business, nonprofit sector, whatever?
[00:14:38] BL: Yeah. Well, I will always go back to my framework, which is humble, hungry, hustle.
[00:14:44] JR: Yeah, this isn’t softball. I’m setting you up, Brad. Come on. Knock it out of the park.
[00:14:47] BL: I know. That was a [inaudible 00:14:47] pitch. I love it. I will always go back to those three H’s because, for me, that’s been my chair and the three legs of the chair since I started leading in my late teens, early 20s, organizationally you could say. But, if I had to choose, let me give you one in each of those categories. One would be the idea of self-awareness as a leader, which will truly fit into the humble category. We all know about authenticity. I mean, it’s overused today. I would say this though, that again, the leaders I have really admired, they’re so self-aware that their confidence comes from their humility of self-awareness. They’re so dialed in on who they are that they’re comfortable walking into any environment and being okay with the real event, right?
That’s true definition of confidence, is that your confidence comes from a place of humility because you’re content, you’re so self-aware. I think that so many leaders that I meet that are not humble, they’re actually insecure. They’re walking around in some ways hoping nobody finds out. That’s just — it’s so much energy.
[00:16:05] JR: It’s exhausting.
[00:16:07] BL: Oh my gosh! It is.
[00:16:08] JR: Yeah.
[00:16:09] BL: That would be one. I mean, curiosity as a hungry leader, man, name of the game. Again, you interviewed tons of people, you’ve been around some really Class A leaders, me too. And every one of them, it’s like an old west shoot out of who can ask the best questions, right? That posture of I never arrive, that I’m going to learn it all, and I’m going to know it all. I’m stealing that from — somebody else said that before me. I’m not sure who it was. But the learn it all mindset is such a better posture than being a know-it-all.
Even if you’re the Grand Poobah and I watch Maxwell do this, John Maxwell so many times, Jordan, like he would speak at an event that we would be putting on or hosting or just there with him. He would go sit in the front row or somewhere where he got the old four-colored pen out, like the black, blue, green, and red and then he got his white or yellow pad out. Old-school baby. He’s sitting there taking notes and many times he’s taking notes on the thing that someone is saying that they stole from him.
[00:17:15] JR: Yeah. I’ve seen him in person and he writes constantly.
[00:17:21] BL: Constantly.
[00:17:23] JR: At these events, it’s nuts.
[00:17:25] BL: On airplanes, in the front row of the conference when nobody is looking. I always notice that about John, which I really admired about him was, this is why you’re able to be an expert is because you’re such a learner. Then onto the hustle category, I’m going to throw a curveball on this one. Nobody expects it, but it’s margin. It’s the ability to rest and have Sabbath, and to be comfortable with a rhythm that is maintainable over the 60-year, 70-year journey. Because everybody thinks, “Oh, hustle. I get it, Brad. Like you mean outwork everybody, get yours, it’s scarcity so there’s only certain amount. If you don’t get it, somebody else will.” No. Just the opposite. In fact, it’s abundance mentality.
Your hustle is about others, but your margin is about you. You’re crushing it because you want to elevate others, but then your margin, it’s Sabbath, allows you to work from that place of rest.
[00:18:26] JR: Well, and this is different for Christians, right?
[00:18:29] BL: Yes.
[00:18:29] JR: By the way, I’m so glad you brough this up, because hustle, especially within the church has got a really bad rep as –
[00:18:36] BL: You got it.
[00:18:36] JR: Jefferson Bethke wrote this book, To Hell with The Hustle. I haven’t read it, but I still love that you use the term hustle because we just have a unique relationship with this topic. I wrote about this in my book, Called to Create. The difference is that Christians, unlike the rest of the world, know that it is not our hustle that produce results, right? Jesus said, apart from him, apart from the vine, we can do nothing, or called to trust, right? Or called to trust in him to produce results. By the way, that’s the humble part H3 Leadership. But we are called the hustle, this is clash of 323. Whatever you do, work heartily as for the Lord not for men. It’s embracing that. These things aren’t at odds with each other. There’s a tension that we need to embrace between trusting and hustling.
I think you’re onto something by mentioning Sabbath and margin, because I think that is the sign that you’re managing that tension well. Like if you can’t unplug and rest, and regularly enter into rest because Christ has finished work for you, that’s a problem. Is that what you’re trying to say? Is that what you’re coming with this?
[00:19:46] BL: Absolutely. Yes, all of the above, man. I mean, I love Jefferson’s writing, John Mark Comer. They’re so many who sort of have — they’ve pushed against I would say what cultural hustle is, which many times comes back to comparison. It’s, “I’m watching everybody else, so I better get going, because I’m now getting behind.” For me, it’s stewardship of season, it’s rhythm that’s appropriate, it’s the idea that we’re going on a marathon. We’re not just in this for the sprint, although there might be seasons of sprinting. I mean, there might be seasons when you’re launching something and you are going to need to show up and work longer hours.
This is part of the appropriate mindset that says, “Again, I’m in rhythm.” There’s not just this sense that I’m redlining my engine throughout my life, because, at some point, that engine is going to blow. What we don’t want to be is the leader who redlines, blows up, recovers, redlines, blows up, recovers, redlines, blows up, recovers. There’s a point there where you’re just below the red line, which is again, like that’s rhythm and your engine runs at its optimum performance based on that kind of output.
[00:21:03] JR: I’m writing my next book right now. You and I talked about this a couple months ago. I’m writing my next book right now and I’m writing about how these God-designed rhythms of rest are actually counterintuitively productive, right? Like, I came across this great story about the California Gold Rush in the mid-1800s. There’s this book published, it was like a guide to the Gold Rush in California, published in 1849. It actually cites, like they like did a study back in the 1840s that people who regularly Sabbath on the trail got to their destination 20 days faster than the control group. It’s like fascinating, right?
[00:21:46] BL: That’s amazing.
[00:21:46] JR: I think of like a modern-day example of this is, like, Chick-Fil-A, right? Like back in the day before there were free standing Chick-Fil-A, Chick-Fil-A had a hard time getting malls to take them in. Landlords just didn’t want them because they were only open six days a week and they didn’t think they could do it. Now, they’re the most coveted tenant in the world around malls, right? They’ve proven that it’s counterintuitively productive.
We’re recording this, what is this October of 2020? We’re still living in the midst of this COVID pandemic. What’s one new thing you’ve learned about leadership this year that you either didn’t know pre-pandemic or, I don’t know, you just know at a different, more nuanced level as a result of the pandemic?
[00:22:30] BL: Well, I think what I’m hearing the most, and this is true for me too is, first of all, in times of crisis, you have to communicate more as a leader. Andy Stanley says this, I’ll steal his words, “People want to hear your voice not just your words.” They want to be comforted by knowing that you actually are working hard to lead them. The other thing is that action actually relieves or reduces anxiety. In times of crisis, the best thing for us to do is, many times, actually do something. It might just be that you’re pushing forward, you’re taking a step, you’re launching something, you’re trying something new, you’re serving people in your community.
But what most of us doing during something that feels chaotic or uncertain is we actually freeze, we pause, we stop. We say, “Well, let’s just let this blow over. Let’s hope we get through this.” Compared to, no, actually lean into that wind and do something. Actually, create something that feels like action because when we move, we actually create momentum. Action reduces anxiety. Then, this is true for all of us. Like this is a restart. This is not a do over, it is a disruption, it is an interruption. We’re not going back to normal.
In times like this, like when I’m approaching my own world, my little universe that I spend my time in, and the work that I do, and the things that I’m thinking about. Everything right now is, I’m in launch mode. I’m in, let’s start it over. We got a fresh slate, man. The whiteboard is clean. Let’s dream up some new stuff. Because how many of these are you going to get in the course of your life?
[00:24:18] JR: Yes. Exactly.
[00:24:18] BL: So I look at with a bit more excitement, Jordan. I mean, you probably are like this too.
[00:24:24] JR: Yes. Yeah.
[00:24:24] BL: Even though it’s terrible. This is like awful, but I’m excited to think that this potentially has the ability to allow us to create new things. It may just be my wiring; I don’t know but those are the things that come to mind.
[00:24:38] JR: Yeah, I know. I’m in the same bucket. I mean, this is a — obviously, this pandemic is horrible. This is a result of the fall and we need to fight hard against it but, as with everything, the Lord is using even this for his glory and for some good to some end. I’ve seen a lot of good. I mean, we are reaching more people with this content and serving more people through the ministry of excellence at Jordan Raynor and Company. Like that’s a blessing that we wouldn’t have had had not happened this pandemic.
I think a lot of leaders are thinking about not primarily how do we cut? How do we preserve what we have? I see more leaders that – the most exceptional leaders I know are asking the question of like, “What can we create during this time? What can we make to move the word for, to move it closer to the kingdom?” So, Brad, as a leader to pursue mastery of this craft, you got to be good at a lot of different things, right? Like, leadership may be your “one thing,” but there’s a lot of different skills that go into that. I’m curious what you think, what skill you’re disproportionately good at? I’m asking you to toot your own horn. If you had to like teach a course on a single topic, what would it be?
[00:25:53] BL: I know immediately. It would be the idea and the power of connections.
[00:25:57] JR: Yes, that’s exactly what I was going to say on your behalf. I love that you went there. All right. Explain.
[00:26:01] BL: Well, the ability for me to have a very dialed in, intrinsic gift to see connections happen before they even happen, to understand like how to make connections, to — again, the subtitle of my life story, even my leadership message. If the title is H3 Leadership: Be Humble. Stay Hungry. Always Hustle. The subtitle is, in many ways, Build a Platform That Other People Can Stand On. If you’re going to be a platform builder for others, you really have to figure out then how to be a connector that allows for two things to come together without you being the center of it. I felt that even in my 20s.
What’s interesting about the term and the idea of a catalyst, Jordan, which I — when I was in my early 20s, I didn’t — God hadn’t connected me to that idea yet or to that team yet. But the idea of a catalyst is that, you are a change agent. You’re actually creating a combustible many times explosion that leaves no residue of itself. Meaning that you are connecting two things at some point but there’s no residue of you. It’s not about you. So as a connector, I want to be able to connect perhaps two people, two organizations, two movements, two – multiple things. But let’s just say it’s two people. If I connect them together and say, “Hey, Jordan. I want you to meet so and so. You guys should connect. You don’t know each other. Here’s what I love about both of you know. I hope this turns in to a conversation,” and I get out of the way at that point. Then I hear, a year later, and you say, “Hey, thanks for that connection to Bill. Bill and I are going to do a project together and we’re working on a new initiative.” I just celebrate at that point.
Now, let me give you the opposite potentially.
[00:28:01] JR: Yeah, please.
[00:28:03] BL: The opposite might be what we would call the networker, and the networker which — there may be a better term that creates a little bit more of a true expression, but just go with me. The networker, it’s all about them. The networker, they want to make sure that you realize you actually made that connection. They’re transactional in nature. They don’t get something out of it. It really doesn’t need to happen. They’re all about serving themselves.
The networker is the person that comes to that event and you’re like, “Please, how do I —
[00:28:36] JR: Please leave.
[00:28:37] BL: Yeah, exactly. Or they show up in the green room and you’re like, “How did you get in here?”
[00:28:41] JR: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:42] BL: And everybody’s coming to you going, “Hey, how did they get in here? Because now they’re annoying me, they won’t leave me alone.” We all know who that person is. Hopefully, it’s not you listening, but you can think, “Oh, yes, I know exactly what we’re talking about, Brad.” That’s the two extremes of this power of being a connector compared to being a networker.
[00:29:04] JR: It’s the difference between creating value and taking value, right? It’s a mindset of service, of serving others before yourself. I’m so glad you brought this up, because I just want to publicly praise you for this. You and I have only known each other — we’ve known each other’s work for — I’ve known your work for years, but only got on the phone together for the first time a few months ago. But in those few months, you’ve set a couple of this connection emails between me and some other people. I’m so glad you answered this question the way you did, because you are an exceptional — I was going to say networker, but I love the distinction. It’s a connector, the connector versus the networker. The smarmy networker versus the value-creating connector. I love that so much.
Brad, you’re a productive guy. You know we talk a lot the podcast about daily habits, routines. What is a typical day in your life look like, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed?
[00:30:01] BL: Well, I’m a morning person, meaning getting a lot of stuff done before 9:00 AM. Like that commercial, I think it was a military commercial, that we get more done before 9:00 AM than most of you do all day.
[00:30:14] JR: I like that, yeah.
[00:30:15] BL: That really is for me the time to be most productive. I’m a fan of YouVersion Bible App, and I read The One Year Bible, with Nicky Gumbel, that curates and that -- among other things, but that really ends up being sort of daily scripture. I try to do in the morning, but I’m not necessarily like ruthless about that. A lot of people are, first things first. I’m a bit more scattered in my approach to some ability to really dive into the scriptures. If I get stuff done by 10:00 AM, and I very rarely schedule anything, whether it’s a meeting or call, before that time, even sometimes before 11:00. I want to save that for getting stuff done.
Then the rest of the day ends up being interviews, it ends up being phone calls, it’s Zoom calls, at this point, maybe a couple a day. I’m a runner, so I run usually anywhere from 6 to 10 miles a day.
[00:31:18] JR: Oh my word!
[00:31:19] BL: Yeah. That ends up being a big rock that has to go in the jar early on.
[00:31:25] JR: When do you do that?
[00:31:26] BL: Usually in the afternoon. That’s typically like, the rhythm or the habit would be sometime between 2:00 and 4:30.
[00:31:35] JR: So after you’ve gotten your deep work done, and somewhere in the middle of calls, meetings, all that stuff.
[00:31:41] BL: And I’ll do a lot of those calls while I’m running. I’ll just stop and walk though, because I don’t want to be the annoying guy that’s breathing hard during a call.
[00:31:48] JR: Thank you for not doing that for this podcast.
[00:31:52] BL: Yeah, I really do. I do a lot of meetings and phone calls especially while I’m walking. I find that I’m actually better, but it’s also killing two birds with one stone. So much of my learning, it happens during a run. I’m listening to the podcast, I’m listening to sermons, I’m taking notes, I’m praying. I’m actually capturing like thoughts, new ideas. I mean, the amount of times — when I say run, I’m not running for time, because the amount of times I’d stop, people would say, “Brad, you’re really terrible with your times.” I’m like, “Well, I’m not trying to be a marathon runner and I’m not trying to get better necessarily, even though I do want to improve.” But it’s much more about the consistency and the habit of exercise, but also, it gives me room then, to be able to do all those other things. I actually get fueled by — it’s sort of like being in the shower. When you’re in the shower, we all know those great ideas start showing up.
[00:32:49] JR: Brad, you do your afternoon run, your afternoon meetings. What time are you going to bed? How much sleep are you getting?
[00:32:54] BL: Usually 10:00, 10:15. I try to get eight hours, so I’m usually up by 6:00, 6:15. Eight hours a night though. If I’m getting less, it’s going to start to have an effect and if I’m getting more, you know, I’m probably not getting more. Again, early for me is, that’s the sweet spot. That’s the Dan Pink, in his book, he talks about, “When do you get the most done?” and I need to go to bed earlier in order to wake up earlier to get things done earlier.
[00:33:28] JR: Yeah. I’m the same way. Brad, you know this podcast is all about how our work contributes to God’s work in the world, how he works through us. You’ve interviewed and worked with tons of amazing leaders. I’m curious, who come to mind right off the bat when I ask this question? What are some of the most vivid examples you’ve seen of leaders moving the world closer to the kingdom of God? Obviously, we’re not moving the world closer, he’s working through us. But who comes to mind when I ask that question?
[00:34:00] BL: It’s a great question. I’ve got so many examples because of just the work I’ve done the last 20 years, of being in the conference world. Because so many of those people we would invite to actually come speak at our events. I’ll give you a couple that I just feel like for me have been probably more standout than others. I mean, I’ve mentioned John Maxwell, so I won’t mention him again, but he would be on the list for sure.
Here’s why, Jordan. Let’s me just dive into this for a second with John. I think everybody knows him as a leadership author, but here’s what I love about John. This has been true throughout his life. He’s an evangelist and he’s been able to connect the dots of bringing people of influence into his slipstream and also then introducing them to Jesus. He does this in events where he’ll have thousands of people all the world in countries that this shouldn’t happen in. Where he’s spending the day training them as a leader, and then he’ll say, “Hey! By the way, we’re done. But if you want to stick around, I’m going to share a bit of my own personal story.” Everybody stays. Everybody. Nobody leaves. Then he shares a story, shares his faith story. He presents the gospel in a clear and compelling way, and he is perhaps one of the great evangelists of this generation.
[00:35:29] JR: Do you think John Maxwell and Company — I can’t remember what the official business name is. Do you think that’s an intentional vehicle to the end or do you think this is just a byproduct that found along the way? Like, I mean, either way amazing, it’s exciting that John’s using that platform that way. What are your thoughts on that or do you know?
[00:35:45] BL: Well, John’s always — he’s pastoral, so he’s always been a pastor and he always will be. Whether he’s showing up and sort of carrying that as his business card right now, which he’s not. But he would say he’s always been a pastor regardless of his seat at the table in this season. For me, again, that’s what I’m trying to do, like that’s the lesson for me. Is that I’m going to be pastoral because that’s part of my calling as a follower of Jesus. It’s a salvation calling, it’s also part vocational calling. But he would look at it and say, regardless of what season he’s in, he’s always had that, whether — again, he was a pastor truly, like he was actually pastoring a church, or he’s running an event company that is sharing his message. Or now, he’s much more, in this season of his life, he’s hanging out with people at high levels of influence; CEOs, heads of state, countries, government officials, etc.
In every season he’s been in, he’s done this. It’s not a means to an end, other than it’s just the simple notion that —
[00:36:55] JR: It’s who he is and who God has called him to be. I love it.
[00:36:58] BL: You got it.
[00:36:59] JR: Who else is on the list?
[00:37:00] BL: Well, I’ll give you another one, that for me really, I would say — and this one, nobody is going to know this guy’s name. But he impacted me in my 20s, a gentleman named Bob Foster. Nobody will know. He started a place called Lost Valley Ranch in the middle of Colorado, which I’ve invited you to, and you’re going to make —
[00:37:20] JR: I can’t wait to go.
[00:37:21] BL: He was a peer of patriarchs like Billy Graham, and Chuck Swindoll, and Howard Hendricks, and sort of all these patriarchs of the faith back when they were in their prime in the ’50s and ’60s and ’70s. He’s passed on at this point, he lived to be 94. When I was working at Lost Valley, so this was just out of college for me and I was stupid, dumb, ignorant and stupid at 23, 24 years old.
[00:37:50] JR: Weren’t we all?
[00:37:51] BL: And I’m ready to change the world.
[00:37:52] JR: Hey, but it you are self-aware, that goes a long way.
[00:37:56] BL: Hopefully I was. I’m working on this ranch out in the middle of the mountains of Colorado. I didn’t study for that. I wanted to be in politics. I was going to go to law school. Anyway, he’s 75 at that point and we would meet for breakfast every Friday morning. He’s the owner of this guest ranch. He’s 50 years older than me and he just poured into my life. One of the things that he influenced me, among many, is he said, “Brad, you’re 20s. Who you are right now in your 20s, establish your 70s. The man of God you want to be when you’re my age is the man of God you’re becoming at your age.”
What he instilled to me was legacy and that legacy starts now. Like my legacy starts when I’m 24, so I’m already doing the hard work of finishing. That was such a great lesson for me in early season, was, “Look at me as an example and let’s start working on the things that are going to be the foundation, building blocks for you to get to the finish line. Finish the race well man.”
[00:39:05] JR: Going back however many years ago this was. Is this guy discipling you? Are there verses, particular passages or scripture that you remember from that time, that just really stuck with you during this phenomenal run you’ve had as a leader?
[00:39:23] BL: Well, we did scripture memory together. So Bob Foster was — he was a navigator. If you know the navigators as a mystery, scripture memory is like one of the foundational elements of being a part of the navigator’s movement. So we did Scripture memory together and he knew all the verses already, but he just did it because I was learning them. There was a ton. I mean, I think at one point, we memorized the entire book of Philippians 2. “Have this attitude in yourselves which is also in Christ Jesus. Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but instead humbled himself even to the point of death.” I mean, I could go on.
[00:40:03] JR: That’s a great chapter.
[00:40:03] BL: It is a great chapter.
[00:40:05] JR: Philippians 2 is a solid chapter to memorize.
[00:40:06] BL: It might be in the Hall of Fame, Philippians 2. Especially the first — by the way, the first five or six verses. If you want to do a deep dive on teamwork and organizational culture, those first five or six verses are game changers in regards to how you approach serving each other.
[00:40:26] JR: Yeah, it’s all about Christ’s humility.
[00:40:28] BL: You got it man. I’ll throw that one out there as my takeaway from that time was Philippians 2.
[00:40:33] JR: Yeah, it’s really good. I mentioned I’m writing my next book right now. One of the things I’ve been writing about is — I think this is relevant to anyone who works, but particularly relevant to leaders, is how the gospel is kind of this double-edged sword. On the one hand, it is our ultimate source of arrest. Then the other side, it’s our ultimate source of ambition, right? It’s both. I’m just going to throw that out there and see if you like to comment on this. Agree, disagree and expound however you see fit.
[00:41:06] BL: Totally agree. That’s where I would say, the connection point for me in terms of what I’ve held to is that humility and hustle go together. Like proper ambition, Godly ambition is not just appropriate, but it’s needed and it’s actually valued. It’s highly valued in the kingdom of God. Hustle, again, if hustle is for others, if you’re actually making other better, if you’re elevating other people, if you’re honoring and serving others, the question is always for what, right?
I mean, the ambition question comes down to, for what? I mean, you can take anything in your life and you can keep asking that question. I want to make money. Well, for what? Well, I want to have margin. Well, for what? I want to be able to provide for my family. For what? You just keep asking that question and at some point, you will get to the place where you have to wrestle with that ultimate definition of, again, what is ambition. If it doesn’t, “for what?” someone else. Or it doesn’t “for what?” God’s purposes, and ultimately the redemptive qualities again of being a follower of Jesus, then it’s going to be a “for what?” that just ends up burning away.
[00:42:27] JR: This was the story of my life, the first five years of an entrepreneur, chasing after success, chasing after the next round of funding so that people would know I was worthy. This is very dark side of career. That’s why on this podcast you will probably never hear the word success, you’ll probably never hear us talking about how to get a raise at work. That’s not the point. The point, as we say in every single episode is the glory of God and the good of others. That’s the source of our ambition. When that is our ambition, man, we should want to be wildly productive to that.
I think about Jesus in, I think it’s John 17:4? Where he’s praying to the fire, he says, “I have brought you glory on earth by” – how did he do it? “By finishing the work you gave me to do.” Right? Like, we’ve got work to do and we bring glory to the Father, when we pursue that work, when we pursue mastery of our craft and we lean in hard to the work God’s given us to do. That’s part of — not the only way. That is part of how we bring glory to the Father, right? That’s motivating to me.
[00:43:41] BL: I think too. One of the things that so many of us wrestle with is the proper understanding of vocational calling, and that sense of – we have two callings in life. We have a salvation calling. That is to follow Jesus, to be a person of faith. We then have a vocational calling, and that vocational calling is actually, should give evidence and express, in all of its form, the ultimate manifestation of the glory of God. It doesn’t mean that we all have to become a part of a staff of a church or we have to do work that looks like it’s more important in the kingdom. The work you’re doing matters now and so much though of the potential downside or the danger for many of us who are type A, ambitious, enneagrams 3, performers is that we allow at some point our identity to get wrapped up in that season of assignment.
That happened to me, like part of my story that I write about in the book, in H3, is that I started to become Catalyst Brad. That everything about me, Jordan, was that it was about like you said, it was the ultimate expression for me now was that Catalyst Brad and that was becoming identity, assignment, and calling. At some point, catalyst Brad had to die, because it was time for a new season, it was time for a new chapter in the book. If we’re not self-aware, if we’re not content, if we’re not dialed in on being an authentic leader, if we’re not like appropriately handing things off and seeing things in their appropriate nature as a season and not an identity, then we get a lot of things really messed up. And the church unfortunately sometimes makes it even more confusing.
[00:45:34] JR: Totally. Now, that’s very, very well said. Brad, you’ve listened to the show. You know we wrap up with the same three questions every time. Number one, really curious to get you take on this. Books that you recommend or gift most frequently to others.
[00:45:49] BL: I’ve probably gifted the Next Generation Leader by Andy Stanley more times than any other book.
[00:45:57] JR: Wow!
[00:45:58] BL: And it’s now, I don’t know, 15 or 16 years in existence. It’s also got a long shelf life. That one probably has been gifted by me the most to others, especially those who are in the early stages of the career.
[00:46:14] JR: Yeah. That’s a good answer. I like that. Who would you most like to hear on this podcast?
[00:46:19] BL: Well, I have a number of answers, but I’m to give you a couple, a specific one. I would love to hear — you may have had Joel Marion at some point.
[00:46:30] JR: I haven’t, but you know it’s funny. Joel and I have been talking. He’s in my neck of the woods.
[00:46:35] BL: Sure. You guys are pretty close.
[00:46:36] JR: Yeah, yeah. We’re going to get Joel on.
[00:46:39] BL: Yeah. I listen to his podcast, we connected earlier this year so he would be one. I would love to hear your interview the CEO Walmart. I don’t know him, but I know that there’s definitely like elements of faith.
[00:46:57] JR: Interesting.
[00:46:58] BL: His name is Doug McMillon.
[00:47:00] JR: That’s a terrific answer.
[00:47:01] BL: Yeah. And if Doug, you’re listening, come on man.
[00:47:04] JR: Come on, Doug.
[00:47:05] BL: Jump on the podcast, let’s go.
[00:47:06] JR: You know what’s funny. Honestly, some of my favorite guests have come because they were just already in the audience. Like I just interviewed — right before I interviewed you. I interviewed this woman named Kara Holden, who wrote the second Disney Plus original movie that just came out. This movie called Clouds. Like, what in the world? You’re just like sitting here in the audience. So, hey, if you’re out there and you think this is a conversation that you think our audience want to hear with you, let us know at jordanraynor.com/contact.
By the way, those books that Brad just mentioned including his book. H3 Leadership, you guys can find those books, as always at jordanraynor.com/bookshelf.
All right, last question Brad. One piece of advice to leave this audience with. Some of them leaders, some of them not and don’t want the gift of leadership. They’re very content with whatever other gift God has given them. What we share though, everyone in this audience share is the desire to do exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?
[00:48:03] BL: Yeah. Let me give you one thing and it may spur something else. But I think, especially for those of you who feel like you’re in that place that is in between. You’re in between the start and the dream job or you’re stuck in the middle of the organization, you feel like nobody knows you’re there. You launched your company but it’s still not gotten up the ground in the way you thought it might. One thing is just to be faithful to the current assignment and feel that sense of, crush the now and that now will lead to the next. And that the way you steward the now really does determine not only what God gives you to steward next, but also that it is your scorecard in the kingdom. We forget that, we forget that the way we take something that might seem so insignificant and we crush that insignificant moment, or assignment, or season, it really does show up as a grade in God’s scorecard in God’s economy. Crush the now and it will turn to the next.
[00:49:12] JR: Yeah, it’s one of the beautiful truths of scripture, right? Scripture’s crystal clear that we can do nothing to earn our salvation, our status as children of God. Jesus has done the work for us, but it’s also equally clear that their rewards for how we steward this life, right? Our entrance to the kingdom is the same, but our life in the kingdom is going to be different. There are different rewards based on stewardship. That’s why Ephesians 5 tells us to redeem the time because the days are evil. We’re going to buy up our time and steward it well for God’s glory and the good of others.
Brad, I want to commend you for doing that exceptionally well. I want to commend you and every leader, everyone in our audience for the important redemptive work you’re doing every day. Thank you for working hard to master the art of leadership, for advocating, for hustle. That we Christ followers be ambitious for the work the father has given us to do.
If you want to connect with the ultimate connector, Brad Lomenick, you can find him at bradlomenick.com. Brad, thank you so, so much for joining me, my friend.
[00:50:30] BL: Yeah, thank you for having me, Jordan
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[00:50:34] JR: Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss another episode in the future. If you’re already subscribed, do me a huge favor. Take 10 seconds, 15 seconds, a minute, whatever, right now, go to Apple Podcast and leave a review of the show. Thank you, guys, so much for listening. I’ll see you next week.
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