Is the Church “overplaying the Great Commission”?
Jordan Raynor sits down with Andrew Scott, CEO of Operation Mobilization USA, to talk about the startling percentage of early church growth that came through mere Christians, the practical implications of the fact that your “passions have been redeemed," and whether or not the Great Commission negates the First Commission.
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[00:00:04] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians, those of us who aren't pastors, but who work as programmers and plumbers, and parents? That's the question, we explore every week. Today, I'm posing it to Andrew Scott, the CEO of Operation Mobilization, a 63-year-old missions agency that is totally rethinking what missions ought to look biblically and practically in the world today.
Andrew is also the author of one of the best books I've read in a very long time. It's called Scatter: Go Therefore and Take Your Job With You. Andrew and I recently sat down and talked about the shocking percentage of early church growth that came through mere Christians. We talked about the practical implications of the fact that your passions have been redeemed by Jesus Christ. We explored whether or not the Great Commission negates the first commission the call to create. Guys, this has to be in my top ten favorite episodes of all time of the podcast. Please enjoy this terrific and encouraging conversation with Andrew Scott.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:30] JR: Andrew Scott, a new friend, but very quickly becoming a good friend. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:36] AS: So good to be with you. Jordan, thank you for this time together.
[00:01:40] JR: Yeah. Let's start with the basics. Tell us a little bit about Operation Mobilization. What do you guys do?
[00:01:49] AS: Yeah. Well, first of all, I’ll give a little context. 63 years old, so one of those older traditional mission agencies, I guess, from our age. I think going through a lot of change, which is good. We believe really, Jordan, that the good news of Jesus and his love for all of creation has the power to transform all of creation. Then with that, we believe that the best way to demonstrate that and declare it is through Jesus followers living vibrantly in the community in which their place. They bring good in with them and they bring good out in the community by their very presence, their good work. So our goal is to see a vibrant community of Jesus followers within reach of everyone.
Our focus as an organization, are the parts of the world where there are no Jesus followers. So we want to see local Jesus followers raised up to do that and where there are none sent in near culture, far cultural workers to go live in the midst of these communities, bringing good in and bringing good out into the community through their lives, through the witness.
[00:02:46] JR: I love it. You've been with OM, since you were 19. That's crazy.
[00:02:49] AS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. By which was only four years ago, Jordan, of course.
[00:02:52] JR: Right, right. All right. Of course. Right, right. You're in a newbie.
[00:02:55] AS: 18, yeah.
[00:02:56] JR: I was reading this in your bio before. I didn't realize this. Before you were OM, you were a butcher. What's the story there?
[00:03:03] AS: Yeah. Well, we all have jobs when we are teenagers to buy the things we want. I enjoyed it. I loved it. I loved the business side of it as well. We had a little store and basically as an 18-year-old, knowing everything there was to know about life, I decided that I could get a car quicker this way than if I went to university. I wasn't really much of a student. I did well in school, but I didn't like school. So that's the direction I chose. Someone asked me, Jordan, this is really in the context of what we're talking about. I remember one of my sister's friends saying, “Hey, Andrew, do you see yourself a butcher all your life? Not that there would be anything wrong with that.” I said, “No.” I don't know why I said no, but I said no. Two years later, I left and started with a whim to do their two-year training program on one of their ships, which really helped form and shape a lot of my life.
[00:03:50] JR: Yeah. Looking back, if you were to go answer that question again, how would you answer it today?
[00:03:55] AS: About being a butcher –
[00:03:56] JR: Are going to be a butcher the rest of your life? Yeah.
[00:03:59] AS: I probably would say something along the lines of, if I am a butcher the rest of my life, I will do it for the glory of God. I will seek to represent him in that space. But I honestly don't know what journey my life will take.
[00:04:12] JR: Because I'm 19 –
[00:04:14] AS: Because I'm only 19. I have no idea about life. Yeah.
[00:04:18] JR: Exactly. So Andrew, you are not a “mere Christian” as I am to find that term for the purposes of this show. You're working in a missions agency, but man, you have such a powerful message for mere Christians. It really centers around your vision of how “missions” is evolving. You've already alluded to this a little bit, but tell us more about this and your vision for the scattered church.
[00:04:46] AS: Right. Well, as I said, I have been part of OM for many years. OM is a 63-year-old organization. We fitted that model of mission was, we invited people to leave their job, raise support and come join our organization to go do missions. I was confronted, Jordan probably, I was about, I guess it's eight years ago now or maybe nine years in the midst of taking on my role as CEO of OM here in the USA. I was confronted by one of our leaders of our work in the Muslim world, and he said two things to me that realized that what I was holding on to as missions, I mean, part of it was I dated part of what was just, quite frankly, not biblical and he said two things.
One is there will be no traditional missionaries in the Muslim world within ten years. He explained that as an access thing. I got that. Yeah, we'll come up with a creative way to change that and we'll still get in. The second thing he did completely wrecked me and has really caused a massive pivot in my life. He said, the Filipino maids, these are ladies who have left the Philippines for economic reasons. Have done more and happened to be Jesus followers, mere Christians, as you would call it within your podcast.
They have done more for the spread of the gospel in the Arabian Peninsula than all the traditional missionaries put together. I tell you, Jordan, I didn't know how to deal with that, because I had no category in my idea of missions for the Filipino maids. They didn't fit it. They weren't specially called, they weren't highly trained, they didn't join a mission agency, but here they were being more effective. So I went on a journey of asking, how can this be? How dare God invite people into his story to have this type of impact, when we've done all the training, we've done all they build structures to do it a different way. I started to, in a sense go on a journey saying, “Okay, what else have I missed?”
As I came out the other end, there was so often I describe it this way, I realized I had a bunch of puzzle pieces building a picture and my picture really it wasn't so complete, but I was happy with it. Then I realized that I was missing pieces. I had some pieces the wrong way up, and I had some pieces in the wrong place, and I had to put the picture together, starting in the Word of God, starting in Genesis one. The picture I came up with was dramatically different than the picture I had before. It was moving away from this idea of a few spaces that called highly trained individuals leaving their job, embracing support, joining in that Mission Agency, too.
This idea that every human being that was ever created, ever born, was made in the image of God to be his child and to represent him in the world and they would do that primarily in the workplace. So I had to say, how do I reframe a message to invite people in? How do we build pathways to help people go live that out, especially in parts of the world where Jesus is less known?
[00:07:25] JR: Man, I love this so much and you guys listening are like, “Oh yeah, this is why Andrew is here.” This is so good. So you have this big revelation eight, nine years ago, by the grace of God. You guys have started to move in this direction of this pivot, right? Instead of having people raise funds to be donor supported missionaries, even though you're still doing that work, you're starting to place people in jobs, in countries that are resistant to the gospel for the strategic purpose of making disciples there, right? You guys are all doing this under the scatter global brand, correct?
[00:07:58] AS: Right.
[00:07:59] JR: Tell us a little bit more about how exactly this work. How does this model work, Andrew?
[00:08:05] AS: Right. Well, basically, let me just get a little step before when I finish writing the book, a businessman from Australia called me and they said, “You are irresponsible if you don't find a way to help people go do what you're talking about, because what you've built as mission agency won't help them do this.” So we started what you refer to as Scatter Global. It really is that if you believe that God has made you for his purpose, which is biblical truth, and he's uniquely shaped you to do that in unique ways, businessman, businesswoman, engineer, nurse and doctor, whatever. Let us help you find a way to live that out in parts of the world.
We knew that we had to build something that answered the three big questions, Jordan. One was people said, “Well, okay, but I need a job.” So we said, “Okay, we're going to have to build something to help them find a job.” Secondly, I want community. We have to find a way to help them find community and two we will need to help them find tools to equip them to live in a new culture and live intentionally inviting people toward Jesus. So that was what we built with Scatter Global. What happens is people will sign up on Scatter Global and say, “Here's my professional DNA.” We fish in that pond through our recruiting company, which we started, because we wanted a righteous way to place these people in these companies, and we link them to existing contracts in a number of places around the world.
Now we have to continue to grow into different sectors. We have to go into different countries, because it's relatively new, but we match their professional identity, if you like, their resume, with real jobs in different parts of the world so that they can go and live in these places. Then, as I say, we connect them to existing international Jesus followers there. May or may not be inside a mission agency mostly or not, and we connect them to tools to help live intentionally. So we've placed doctors in hospitals in the Middle East, and they're living there now just showing up every day to be the best doctor they can possibly be and the stories that are coming back about from patients who have never been treated this way with love and care and excellence.
Interns who want to shift over to this doctor's schedule, even if it's night, because he treats them different than any other doctor in the hospital. People are coming in and asking, “Why do you live this way? Why are you different?” They're ready to give a reason for the hope that lies within them.
[00:10:24] JR: Man, I love this so much, right? Clearly, take the doctor example. Doctor can be on mission for Jesus working right here in North America, where most of our listeners are. But you guys are saying, “Hey, there's an even bigger opportunity here. Let us place you in the Middle East, if that's what God's calling you. Do the same job, do at the same level of excellence, maybe at higher level of excellence, and reach these unreached people groups.” I love this.
Really, where this leads is, okay, now, we understand. I think most of our listeners understand they've listened long enough that there are many, many ways we can live out the Great Commission. Really, any, almost any job, any job that contributes to human flourishing can be used to make disciples, but now that everything's an option, that can almost be overwhelming, right? Now, it leads us when you're, all right, how do I choose what to do vocationally as a means of cultivating the kingdom? What advice do you have for listeners who are in that season of life, Andrew?
[00:11:25] AS: Yeah. You know, Jordan, most people I meet in life are asking this question. Either they’re in a career path and they're not so sure it's them, or they're leaving university and they're wondering what career path they should make. So this is a critical question and one that I had to wrestle with myself. One of the chapters in my book, I talk about shape. It's not my acronym. It's from a man called Erik Rees. I asked permission and he allowed me to use it, because I think it's so powerful. That God has uniquely shaped you for his purpose. Maybe before I even get there, that the idea of calling is one of the most misunderstood ideas or truths from the Scriptures.
Most people have taken the few examples from the Scripture, the burning bush, the speaking donkey, the flashing light. They think, unless God does that, I'm not called. So they're waiting for things like that, right? Whether there’s still small voice or the burning bush or a fleece or something like that. As O’Guilin says in his book, The Call, “Do not let the experience of these few be the expectation of the many,” because the reality is your purpose on this planet was determined before the world began. Actually, God, Paul tells us in the Ephesians 1:4, is that before he laid the foundations of the Earth, he loved us, he set us apart, he chose us, he brought us into his family and he did that for the praise of his glory. So our purpose has already been defined.
Now, the question of role, how do I live that out? Is the big question and shape helps as you've been uniquely shaped. Ephesians 2:10, a masterpiece to do the good works God has for you. If you want to know what God wants you to do, find out how he's made you. So Shape talks about your spiritual gifts. I would done a pretty good job at that. Haven't we? We talk about those quite a bit. But then when you go further doing it, this is where we missed it a little bit. The heart are passions. We all have these passions. What are the passions, God has put in your heart? These are the things that might make you angry, because they exist, or they make you sad, because they don't exist, or they make you happy when they do exist or when you can bring them into being.
What are the things that you're passionate about? Then A is abilities. What are that natural abilities? These are not things you get through the Holy Spirit in a sense when you come to Christ. These are the things you're born with that are developed over time that you'll lean into and when your abilities and your passions come together, boy, that's a powerful, powerful force to be reckoned with, things you're good at and you love to do. Then your personality, who are you as far as your preferred way of looking at the world and living in the world? Pay attention to that extrovert, introvert, etc., and then experience, what are the experiences in life that have shaped you, your education, your vocational, your life experiences, good and bad.
All of these have shaped us into who we are, and God is putting this masterpiece together, has put this masterpiece together, because in the makeup of that, we get to see how he wants us to live in the world, because there's uniqueness in there. Now, here's the key, Jordan. There is not just one thing in that, that you can do, right?
[00:14:16] JR: Amen.
[00:14:18] AS: You could put that mix together in many, many different ways. So this brings great freedom, because so many people don't want to miss what God has for them. Well, there's many pathways that you could take as long as you're living it out for the glory of God and as long as you're living it in the context of your shape, you're not trying to be something you're not. You're not trying to be somebody you're not. You're trying to be who God has made you to be and when you do that for his glory, you are the most brilliant reflection of God in the planet, I believe.
[00:14:45] JR: That's so beautiful. I want to go back to the H in shape, right? Your heart, your passions, because you articulated in your phenomenal book, I don't use that word lightly. Scatter a really big idea around passions that I don't think I had ever heard before. The idea was that a Christian's passions have been redeemed. What do you mean by that? What does it mean for how we go about choosing our vocations?
[00:15:13] AS: Right. I don't know about you, Jordan. I grew up in an environment a Christian environment, a church environment where anything that was off me, I was, I mean, we talk about worm theology or broken vessel theology, which we see these things in scripture but we're it led me to was that there was nothing inside me that was good. The only thing, only good that could ever happen was when the Holy Spirit did it and not me, if you like. I think there's truth in that, but what happened was I had an incredibly low view of God's creation, where I'm told in Scripture were fearfully and wonderfully made, and that we're a masterpiece and that we've been redeemed, we've been reconciled, we've been restored through the work of Christ.
When it came to Passions, this was the one it took me a while to get my head around. I could get abilities, a certainly could get spiritual gift of passions, things that make my heart go a little bit faster. I thought, well, actually, if all things were made by him and for him, and are sustained through him, surely that must mean my passions as well. Now, when I come to Christ and he redeems, restores and is reconciling me back to God, then that must mean those passions are too, and I can use them for him.
Part of the redeeming are the redeemed factor of passions is that, I am now living them for the glory of God, representing God. I'm no longer using them for my own and or my own pleasure. I'm using them for God's end and for his pleasure. Now, the reality is, when we do that, we know that we will find a deeper pleasure than we ever would have find, if we had lived in it for ourselves.
[00:16:43] JR: Yes. I love this so much, right? If I can do all things for the glory of God, see first Corinthians 10:31, that's in accordance with his commands. Then if I'm passion about coffee, go be a barista, or a coffee roaster for the glory of God in the good of others. If I passion about business as an avenue to create human flourishing, go do that thing. Whatever it is near Christians, those passions have been redeemed, not for your own pleasure, but for the glory of God and the good of others. I love this quote, the hand book from theologian Howard Thurman. He said, ‘Ask yourself, what makes you come alive? Then go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive.’
[00:17:31] AS: Then the converse of that. Can you imagine that a bunch of Christians are walking around doing stuff that is slowly killing them inside, because it's not who they were made to be, it's not their shape, but they're doing it out of some obligation. I just think when you do research and there's a lot of research out there that the vast majority of Americans, the vast majority, are not going to believe that many people around the world as well, because I know this is an international audience. The vast majority are in jobs where they're disengaged or totally disengaged.
[00:17:58] JR: Yeah.
[00:17:59] AS: Partially, because it's not who they are. How can we see flourishing unless we're living out of the space of this idea of passion and abilities coming together to do the thing that God put us on the planet for?
[00:18:14] JR: I think it's just out of line with the image of God. It is hard to read Genesis in the description of Genesis 1, that you see elsewhere throughout Scripture and not imagine God creating with absolute bliss and joy and pleasure as he did it. I can't imagine that Jesus did his work as a carpenter begrudgingly. I think he did it joyfully, right? So what does it mean for us if people want to see Christ in us? We need to do work that enables us to number one, to become fully alive, but also serve others through the Ministry of Excellence, because that, I would argue, is just as if not more important to our witness, right, Andrew?
[00:18:53] AS: Absolutely. I think if we look at scriptures through the right lands, not through a modern western construct of how we have put ministry in missions of some a pedestal for a few. If we take that lands off and go back into Scripture and then we look at history of the early church, we will find that the gospel spread further, faster through the lives of ordinary or in your language, mere Christians who were living out their life wherever they were with the intent to represent God and invite people towards God.
They did this in their circles of influence. There's a book called Evangelism in the Early Church, and Michael Green says that 80 percent of the growth of the early church was done through these ordinary Jesus followers, these mere Christians doing that, 80 percent. That's how the gospel spread. It was Tertullian, I think, it was, had wrote this that when and he calls them pagans, because is of course he wrote this, years and years, hundreds of years ago. He said, “When the pagans look on at the Christians, they do not say listen to what they say, nor do they say, read what they wrote. They say, look at how they lived their lives.” It was their lives that was unapologetic, that could not be argued against, because of the way they did the work. The way they interacted with others.
This was the thing that drew others towards them and saying, “Your life looks different and I want to know why, because it's attractive and how do I live similarly.” That's how the church spread in the early, early years.
[00:20:19] JR: Yeah. Oh man, I love this. What’s the name of that study. Again, I think our listeners are trying to jot that down. 80 percent or was it 80 percent of early converts came through basically the work of mere Christians –
[00:20:29] AS: Yeah. 80 percent of church growth in the first 300 years came through the ordinary or mere Christians living their life out in the marketplaces of the world. What he truly meant was, the communities in which they existed. Their circle of influence, he would refer to it, as their – How have we forgotten this? That’s the thing. [Inaudible 00:20:47] that we've built structures and we have built tiers, where we have delegated what we call ministry to a few people, where Paul clearly says in Ephesians four, I see the few in the roles of teacher, pastor, etc., etc. The few that are in those roles their role is to equip the many to do the good work.
We flip that and the many show up to watch the few, do ministry. We have if you like, almost turn this thing on its head and realize that the way to see God's kingdom come on Earth as it is in heaven, as every Jesus follower realizing I'm in, I was made for this. I was made to live my life for the mission of God. It's done in the every day of life and the spaces and places that God has put me, where I live with excellence, where I live reflecting the goodness and love of God in those spaces, and know that if I do that, sooner or later people will be attracted into that life and ask the question. Then we have to be ready and we have to be intentional in explaining the reason for the hope that lies within us.
[00:21:46] JR: Yeah, man. That's so good. I recently wrote a devotional series on my other podcast, The Word Before Work, called Five Ways to Prepare to Share the Gospel with Co-workers, right? We've hit on a couple of them, right? Number one, be so good, they can't ignore you. Basically, the Ministry of Excellence. Number two, be prepared to give a defense for the hope, the reason for the hope that's within us. What else? How else can we prepare ourselves? How else can we do our work and live our lives in a way that wins the respect of outsiders, Andrew, and wins opportunities to explicitly share the gospel with those we work with?
[00:22:23] AS: I think, taking the work aside because of the – you've already said that. I think it's the love, the care, the interaction taking an interest in their life, asking about life, what's concerning them, what's frustrating them, what are the challenges, what's going on in their home that obviously takes time to get to that level. But I would say, loving your neighbor. It's how can you show love in the everyday of life to these folks? Because the vast majority of people are living lies void of that type of love, and that's what we're called to do. I would say loving those around you and finding ways to express that love in the daily.
[00:22:58] JR: Real simple.
[00:23:00] AS: Yeah.
[00:23:01] JR: Real simple. But that's what we're committed to do. In this devotional series I talked about, be so good, they can't ignore you, right? But be a friend. That's what you're talking.
[00:23:11] AS: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:12] JR: Right. That's one of the five ways, you should be a friend. Be the one bringing meals to your co-workers when they lose a loved one. Be the one asking looking for opportunities to move from surface-level conversations to serious conversations to spiritual conversations. Just be the one genuinely interested in people, not just their productivity, right?
[00:23:35] AS: Absolutely. I think anybody listening who's asking that question, what does this look like? Go back and find that podcast and I'm sure Jordan will gather you up on the site, because this is where it takes it from, okay, it's not enough just to show up and do really good work. That's a really good starting point and that you never let off in that. That's part of what God put you on the planet to do, because it's through your good work, you continue to draw out the goodness of God and be a signpost to his Kingdom through the good work, whether you're doing engineering, whether you're doing business or hairdressing, whatever it is, but it's these other steps of intentionality that paint the full picture of what we're talking about in this space.
[00:24:14] JR: Yeah, exactly. All right. We've talked about how mere Christians can make disciples in nearly any job, but I do want to put some more weight on the bar for our listeners and talk about the need for some of them, right? To intentionally work in the darker corners of creation, right? Both at home and yes, abroad and I want to start by talking about abroad and the need to reach unreached people abroad outside of North America. Can you share the Halloween costume statistic with our listeners that you mentioned in the book? Because this obliterated me. Wrecked me, when I read it.
[00:24:54] AS: Yeah. There's over 3 billion people in the world who live outside of the access to the gospel. Basically, that means they will never see throughout their life the gospel lived out through the life of another Jesus follower, because there's no Jesus followers close by them. It's not that there's they can drive a mile to church or two miles of church. There's just nobody there seeking to demonstrate and declare the gospel of Jesus in their space. Over 3 billion and that should be a concern to us as Christians, but the reality is, is that we spend more money on Halloween costumes for our pets than we do on giving money to change that reality.
[00:25:34] JR: That's mind-boggling.
[00:25:35] AS: Yeah.
[00:25:36] JR: Listeners like sit with that for a second. We spend more on dressing up our dogs as Yoda than we do reaching 3 billion people who don't know the name, Jesus. Yeah. I'll just let our listeners say with that, I mean, I've been wrestling with that since I read it in your book a few months ago. Listen, I've been praying in preparation for this episode that some of our listeners hearing that feeling the weight of that, would consider taking whatever job they're doing through the Ministry of Excellence here in the United States. They just take it overseas and working alongside some of those 3 billion people who are never going to hear the name of Jesus, right. I also want our listeners to consider leaning into jobs in dark industries right here in North America, right?
Yes. We're all within a couple of miles of a church, but I mean, there are some dark corners of society here, Hollywood, politics, Wall Street, etc. and I love this flashlight illustration that you mentioned in the book. Hopefully you remember it. I think it does a good job of illustrating why we need Christ followers in these dark industries, even here in the States. Can you share that analogy with our listeners?
[00:26:48] AS: Is that the one that the light that shines the furthest shines the brightest.
[00:26:51] JR: Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:52] AS: Yeah, yeah. Obviously, if you want a light to shine far, you need it big and bright. When you build that light, obviously those that are closest to it will get great benefit, even greater benefit than those that are further away. Some people are nervous about if we focus too much on the further parts, we miss the local parts and that's not true. But Jordan, one of the things I think in our journey as in Scatter is that the couple of things that we want to reframe is, this idea that other parts of the world are for a select few spatially called people. The reality was the nations were put on our job description in Genesis one, when God made humanity in his own image. That means he made them to be his children and to represent him in the world.
He told them to go now, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and govern it. So in other words, he needed the whole earth to be looked after, to be governed to be developed by these image bearers. So he put it on their description right from the very, very beginning. Then if you fast forward a few thousand years, where God, the son standing on a mountaintop with a bunch of those that have followed him, he basically repeats Genesis one. This is a maybe a whole other podcast, but I don't believe the Great Commission is a new plan. This was not the coach gathering, this guy were on and saying, “Hey, guys. I’ve got a new plan for you. Here's what you're going to do next.”
When it says that the disciples doubted some worship, but some doubted it. It wasn't that they doubted Jesus. It was that they were not sure about what to do next. That's what that word means. Jesus then simply reminds them and saying, hey basically, his reminding them a lot of what he'd already taught them, as like as you’re going make disciples. Make disciples is the only verb, only action verb. All the rest are helping verbs in this, so that's what we have to understand. The main verb is not going. The main verb is making disciples. So let's make disciples as you're going, teaching them everything I've taught you. Jesus is basically saying, “I've journeyed with you and now as you keep going, do what I've just done.”
I think it's a repeat of Genesis 1:28 that we have the nations on our job description. So those that are asking, “Should I or can I?” I'm saying, “Yeah, you can. You don't need more permission. You don't need a special call, why not?” Now, there may be some special nuances and skills we can help you with, but why not go somewhere else in the world? God has already said, “Hey, let's make sure the whole Earth is filled with people who are in relationship with me, who are imaging me in the world.” There are 3 billion in the world who cannot see an image. Why not go there? We should be concerned about that. What I would say to your listeners is, if there's any inkling in there at all, go for it, go for it.
Those that don't have an inkling, ask why do I not have a concern about those parts of the world? But to your point, earlier on, Jordan, we need to blur the lines between local and global. There's no one higher level of spirituality if I go further than where I am right now, geographically. We do it where we are. We do it in the spaces, in places where God has put us. Then as we start to learn and become effective there, then we ask the question, should I or can I? Not should I, but where could I go to do this where there's two people they know, Jesus.
[00:29:51] JR: Yes.
[00:29:52] AS: I want to blur that line between the local and the global, so that people can start doing it right here and know that they're fully on mission with God where they are.
[00:30:01] JR: Yeah. Oh man is so good. Listen, Jesus never went more than a few hundred miles away from his hometown. He was the greatest disciple-maker in the history of the world. It wasn't about how far he went. It was about what he did while he was going. The same is true for you and me. I think that helps us, I've written about this too, before the Great Commission. I think, there’s a lot of a misconception about the Great Commission. Number one, the way that we train, go and make disciples. We preach that as, you have to literally go and leave where you're physically planted.
As we've been talking about, maybe some of our listeners to call that, I think more people need to go do that. But the verb used there, that we translate to go and go and make disciples, is this arrest tense passive participle, which a better translation is, as you are going make disciples. The go is assumed, Jesus said, you've already gone. Go make disciples as you go, as fishermen, as tax collectors, as whatever you do.
I want to ask you this, though, on the topic of the Great Commission, does the Great Commission, in your opinion, to make disciples, you paralleled it to Genesis 1:28, what people call the Cultural Mandate, the first commission, the call to create, right? Does the Great Commission negate the first commission to call to create, Andrew?
[00:31:26] AS: Yeah. Great, I love your questions, Jordan. With curiosity, and I know that you've wrestled with this as well. I actually believe and I may be labeled a heretic here. I actually think that we have overplayed the Great Commission.
[00:31:39] JR: Amen.
[00:31:40] AS: God, didn't have to come up with a new plan. There wasn't plan B, plan C, Plan D as humanity went their own way. God had a plan before time. We believe he's sovereign. We believe he's eternal. He knows it all. He's able to do that which he's committed to do. Right. So when God created humanity, he had a plan. His plan was to make his dwelling place among the people that he would make in his own image. He would give authority to those people to rule and reign on his behalf, and he would make his dwelling place. We see that in Genesis one. Then with we go to the end of the book, you'll see that he's going to bring about his plan. He's coming to dwell on Earth, where we will continue to rule and reign, but his dwelling will be among us. That's his plan.
I believe when Jesus comes. God to son, his saying, “Hey, that plan still in place.” The Kingdom of God is here. It's not yet here in its fullness, but it's here. I've come to announce that. He went around preaching the kingdom. So when we get to what we call the Great Commission, what I believe Jesus is saying is. “Guys, the plan is still in place.” As you're going about the plan, teach people how to live according to the plan. I've been teaching in the last three years how to live according to God's plan. Would you now go and keep teaching people how to live in God's kingdom to see his Kingdom come on Earth as it is in heaven. To see his presence felt on this Earth, because that's God's desire that hit this planet would be real and reign according to his righteous ways.
I believe the Great Commission is Jesus simply reminding people, “Hey, keep going and teach people how to live the way I've taught you to live and invite them into this kingdom.” So it's an important part of Scripture, but I think it is more a point back to God's original plan that it's still in place, and we need to continue to go about doing that and teach people how to live that way. So that's my viewpoint before I get labeled a heretic or not, I got – of my current fiction –
[00:33:35] JR: If you get labeled a heretic, I will as well, because I'm right there with you, and I think you articulated it better than I could. I mean, Jesus did not come to preach the gospel of individual salvation.
[00:33:46] AS: Right?
[00:33:47] JR: He came to preach the gospel of the kingdom. Kingdoms have more than just people and kings, right? This is Romans eight. The creation waits and eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed, not just individual people groaning for the children. God be real. We are to bring everything, people, culture, business, economies, whatever, justice under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Everything is under his Lordship. We are trying to make it a little bit more visible, a little bit more tangible, yanking pieces of heaven into the present, so that the kingdom comes on earth as it is in heaven. Amen.
[00:34:33] AS: Amen. Amen. Of course, this goes back even to the whole idea of the nations, is that we're looking around and you pointed out there are places in this country, many places in this country, where the kingdom is not very visible. We need to step into those places. Then there's big chunks of the world where there is very little visibility to the kingdom. We need to be concerned about it. It's groaning, it's waiting even in these days for those that are restored, image-bearers of God to go there and start to care for and cultivate all of creation and bring a sense of the kingdom of God here and now.
I think it's groaning now. Some of that groaning can be reprieved by us as image-bearers being in those spaces, bringing salt and light into those spaces. Of course, when Christ returns, it's going to be in its fullness. I love that reference to Romans eight. I think it's a beautiful picture of our role on the planet.
[00:35:24] JR: Yeah. By the way, I've been talking a lot about this, thinking a lot about this lately. It is when Christ followers re-embrace the first commission, the call to create and fill and subdue this earth that we're going to be the most effective at the Great Commission in this generation. Right? We have the largest number of, none’s, people with no religious affiliation in human history, right now. There are more people walking around who have no religious affiliation. They're not walking into the doors of a church for the first time to learn who Jesus is. How are they going to learn about them? They're going to learn about them when they see Jesus followers working and creating with love and excellence and justice and all of these things that put off sense of the kingdom, to spread the aroma of Christ. That's what's going to bring a man and longed to meet our king.
[00:36:18] AS: Absolutely. Jordan, this is why I really resist and push back on anybody that refers to our work in Scatter as a strategy and mission. We're not talking about as a new strategy to get people into places of the world that we can't get in with missionary visas. That's not what we're talking about, that can happen. But what we're talking about is exactly what you're saying is, that we've been created to live our lives that way, as you've just described.
[00:36:41] JR: Yeah.
[00:36:43] AS: The gospel is best represented, I believe, through a living being living out what it looks like to live according to the ways of Jesus. There's principles and creation of representing God, his righteous ways in the plan. This is the starting point. This is the given, this is the way of life. Then everything else flows from that, but when we try to usurp that and say, no, we have a message to preach, it doesn't matter how we go, it doesn't matter how we do it. We'll stand on the street corner, we'll stand on the table at lunchtime in our workplace. We'll do all, because we have to get this message across and nobody's listening.
One question I ask is if our lives were a little bit more vibrant, if our salt was a little bit more flavorful, if our light was just a little bit more bright, in our workplace, in our neighborhoods, because we're living with excellence, we're loving our neighbors. We may not have to show this light, because people are coming to us saying “Something is different. There's a love that I want in my life that I see in your life. There's a peace that I see in your life. There's a way of doing life that is attractive to me. Help me understand.” That's why I believe the New Testament is filled with pointers to how we should live our life in this world, because Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James all knew that if we would do that, then the Kingdom of God would become visible and the Kingdom of God is incredibly attractive.
[00:38:03] JR: Man, I could not say a better, so I won't. That was terrific, Andrew. Thank you for encouraging our listeners to the end. All right, Andrew, three questions. I wrap up every conversation in the podcast with. Which books do you recommend or gift most frequently to others?
[00:38:20] AS: Yeah. I still would say that. I mean, this is the book I often say that if I had to read it before Scatter, I wouldn't have written Scatter, because this is such good is Garden City by John Mark Comber. I love that book and I often push it out there. So that's more with individuals. When I'm working with church leaders and mission leaders, I often reference a book called Dual Transformation. It's written by a couple of guys that looked at what does innovation look like in established institutions or organizations. Answering the question, can you innovate? Do you need to be a startup? Do you need to be in a garage to disrupt and innovate? They say, “Well, actually, no, 40 percent of disruptive innovation is happening in existing institutions. They just do it differently.” Really, it takes away the excuse that I cannot disrupt inside an existing institution. Dual Transformation is that book. I find myself referencing those and encouraging people to read those, maybe more than any other books right now.
[00:39:19] JR: Yeah, it's really good. One of the books that's gotten on my list lately, my personal is, Scatter. I thought you wrote a terrific book for a really challenging book and a really encouraging book for all mere Christians out there. Thank you for writing that. All right, Andrew, who do you want to hear on this podcast? Talk about how the gospel shapes the work of mere Christians in the world.
[00:39:40] AS: You know Jordan, as I was preparing for this, I don't know how many of your pod. I haven't listened to them all, but I've listened to most of them. I’m thinking, “Wow.” You've got so many amazing people. People are coming new to this podcast go back. You've got literally hours and hours to listen to. I racked my brains, couldn't come up with one person, but here's what I thought. What if we could get a few people, mere Christians living in different parts of the world, like Dubai or Hanoi doing this here, just exactly what you're talking about, what we would cast as a mere Christian, living in a sense, an ordinary life for an extraordinary God being something like just people that nobody knows, but are doing this with excellence.
[00:40:21] JR: That's who I want to hear from. Hey, listen, Andrew, you know those people, you know who they are. You send them my way. I would love to do that. All right, Andrew, what's one thing from our conversation today that you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?
[00:40:36] AS: Yeah. Jordan, this is the thing I come back to probably more often than most because of my conversations with people, even after they hear me speak. Is that seeking to understand this idea of calling and probably most of what you understand about calling is not right, it's wrong. Not you personally, Jordan, the listeners. Going back and doing some work around this and diving into this idea and I break it. We've touched in this at different parts of the podcast. This idea of identity, purpose and role. Your identity is a child of God. That's an unchanging identity. Nothing can change that. Nothing can disrupt that. God declares that over you.
Your purpose is also unchanging. You have been made to represent God on this planet. You don't try to discover your purpose. Nothing ever was created God to determine its own purpose. Your purpose was determined by your creator to represent him and his good ways on this planet. Then your role or your roles are determined by how God has made you your shape. Those roles, you'll have multiple roles at any given time. You could be a father like me, a father, a brother, a leader, a soccer player on a team, a neighbor. I have many roles, but in all of those roles I seek to live out my purpose. But there'll be some key roles, some main roles that that will be determined by your shape and to do the work of understanding your shape and then embrace your shape, so that you can be the best at what you do, because you're being who God has made you to be.
Do that hard work of even writing it out. Who does God say that I am? Why does God say that I exist and that's your purpose? Then work on your shape. Then start to live into that, because it will create incredible freedom, incredible assurance that I am doing the things that God has put me on the planet to do. I hope and pray that every listener can leave this time and over these next few weeks, move out of that space of am I doing what God wants me to do? Am I really fulfilling my purpose? Am I really being who God wants me to be? Stepping into that place of deep assurance so that you can shine brightly with no hesitancy, but with deep assurance.
[00:42:41] JR: Man, so good. Andrew, I want to commend you for the important kingdom work you and our listeners do every day. Thank you for giving us a glimpse at how God is advancing the Gospel of the Kingdom to the lives of mere Christians. Thank you for your heart, for the unreached, my friend, reminding us of the importance of working like Jesus did, outside the camp of the temple, right? To help renew every square inch of creation. Guys, I strongly encourage you to pick up a copy of Andrew’s book, Scatter. Andrew, if someone wanted to learn more about what we've been talking about, moving to work among unreached people group, using their current skills. Where could they learn more about that?
[00:43:24] AS: We've developed a whole site that anyone can get to, any organization can use a scatterglobal.com and there's lots of tools there, videos, more material there. Jordan, thank you. You've said thank you to me. I love what you're doing. I just have enjoyed these weeks getting to know you a little bit more and cheer you on for what you're doing to awaken and every follower of Jesus, every mere Christian to fully engage with their creative purpose. So thank you.
[00:43:52] JR: Thank you, Andrew. Appreciate it.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[00:43:55] JR: Dang, I could have talked with Andrew for another hour or two. He's brilliant. I love the way this guy's thinking. I prayed that that was an immense encouragement to all of you mere Christians. Listen, hey, if you've got an idea for somebody who you think should be a guest on this show, I want to hear your recommendations. Just go to jordanraynor.com/contact, fill out the form right there, and I'd love to hear who's on your mind. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.
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