So, what do you want to do for eternity?
The difference between Christians insulating and isolating from the world, the power of articulating what jobs you want to be doing for eternity, and one of the rare times we’re called to disobey our bosses.
Links Mentioned:
[00:00:05] JR: Hey, everybody, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals but who work as weather women, and football coaches and web developers? That's the question we explore every week. And today, I'm posing it to Andrea Sherwood, the Director of Cyber Security at NBC Universal. No big deal. Quite the title.
Andrea and I had a great conversation talking about the difference between Christians insulating and isolating from the world. We talked about the power of articulating what jobs you want to be doing for the next billion years. I.E. for eternity. And we talked about one of the rare times we're called to disobey our bosses. And I got to share a story of me coaching my five-year-old through that process when she got in trouble with her teacher at school. I think the only time that ever happened. I think you're going to enjoy the story.
Guys, please enjoy this conversation with my friend, Andrea Sherwood.
[INTERVIEW]
[00:01:21] JR: Andrea, my friend, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] AS: Thank you, Jordan. It's great to be here.
[00:01:25] JR: We get to hang out like twice in two weeks.
[00:01:28] AS: Yeah, this is so fun. I really appreciate that we got to hang out before we did this. It's great.
[00:01:33] JR: Yeah! For those of you who are in my Word Before Work community, you know that I host these meetups. Pretty much anytime I travel to a major city, I host these meetups. And so, Andrea and I got to hang out at a meet up in Orlando at Maple Street Biscuit Company, which is like my all-time favorite. I love this spot. Don't you?
[00:01:55] AS: Oh, yes, the atmosphere is so cozy. And they were so nice to us, too.
[00:02:00] JR: They were so good. And so, for those of you not in the South, you got to come on down to Tampa, Orlando, anywhere in the Southeast and kind of Maple Street Biscuit Company, which just got bought by Cracker Barrel a couple years ago. Fun fact. We got to have those guys on the podcast. They're also believers.
All right, Andrea, you're the Director of Cyber Security at NBC Universal. I didn't even try to explain what this role was in the introduction. What does this mean? Explain your job to me like I'm sitting here with my eight-year-old.
[00:02:32] AS: I mean, it's really funny. You said Director of Cyber Security, because that sounds really, really inclusive. But really, what I do is actually pretty specific. I'll try to say it simply. It's the governance risk management and compliance of cyber security. It's really the making sure we're proactively taking care of the things we need to take care of in cyber.
[00:02:54] JR: Yeah. Okay. That's a big job, right?
[00:02:58] AS: I mean, it's I feel like it's a big part of a need for cyber security. You have to make sure things are being done and checked regularly that you're doing things that make sense. So, that doing it not just blindly making decisions from a cyber perspective. You have to do the things that are the risky. Looking at your risk. Do the things that make sense.
[00:03:22] JR: Yeah. How did you fall into this space? Because you've been doing cyber security for a long time.
[00:03:26] AS: I have. I've been doing it for 20 years. Gosh! I kind of came across it with just kind of by accident. I decided to go into IT when I was younger. I already had three kids and decided to go back to school, go back to college. And IT was a good field to get into because it was just very lucrative. And so, when you're just kind of a struggling young couple with three children, it's like what kind of job can I get that makes good money?
[00:03:54] JR: That's pretty attractive. Yeah.
[00:03:55] AS: Yeah. And I had been told I was good with computers, which I kind of laughed, because as I went into my career and was able to work with some super smart, super geeky people, they would talk about the things they did in high school already really interested in computers. And I purposely avoided a computer class in high school. I took chemistry twice because I really didn't want to do anything with computers. It was kind of ironic.
But cyber security came up a few years into my career and I just really enjoyed that side of really protecting data and protecting privacy. That was really intriguing to me. And then I was able to do a little bit of digital forensics, which was basically investigating systems to see what people have – maybe they've stolen data or maybe they were trying to get into our network. And so, I got to dabble in that a little bit.
And then, again, working for 15 years I worked for Lockheed Martin. So, I really felt like I was protecting our Department of Defense, because you're protecting data that's keeping them safe. That was very meaningful to me.
[00:05:08] JR: Yeah. It's fascinating. I do understand your world. I just have no experience in it. So, this is like super fascinating to me. I think a lot about like the vocational diversity of our guests all reveal different aspects of God's character, right?
I'm thinking of my friend Artie, the food network star, who is on the podcast a while back. She's a chef, right? She reveals this kind of characteristic of God's hospitality, right? And I think about the entrepreneurs that we have on showing God's creativity. I'm curious for you, working in this field, what aspect of God's character do you think you most regularly embody and reveal through the work you get to do every day?
[00:05:52] AS: I think for me, it's Integrity, it's protection, it's ethics. When you think about what is good and right. And being able to get our work done within any company. You don't want people to come in and steal proprietary information. You don't want people to come in and hack your systems and just destroy things just for the sake of destroying things. And share data that's nobody's business. So, your private data. When I think of what God is pleased with from our cyber security, it's really that protection that just holding up the integrity of these companies.
[00:06:31] JR: Yeah, it's interesting to think about, right? These companies create things. God is a creator God. Satan can't create, right? Satan can only destroy.
[00:06:39] AS: Destroy, yeah.
[00:06:41] JR: And so, in a way, you're embodying this characteristic of like preserving creation. Like, the good parts of creation. Like protecting them. I think it's Ezekiel 34 where it says – it's talking about this vision for the new Earth. And it says that God's people will live in safety and no one will make them afraid, right? Your work is pointing to that, right? Cyber security is there because people are afraid of things being their creations being dismantled, right?
[00:07:08] AS: Right. And I guess there's a lot of people right now who they're creating whole companies to go and destroy, and to go and steal, and to take that creativity away from people and to take ownership of it or take credit for things that people are doing.
[00:07:25] JR: Yeah. You've got to kind of get into the mind of these people, right? That's part of the job, it's like thinking about how they would attack these systems. It's giving you the mind of somebody who's dominated by a life without God. Like, they're seeking to destroy. What has that done to your own walk with the Lord and putting yourself for 20 years in the mind of people trying to destroy rather than create?
[00:07:47] AS: I think that's made me – especially working at Lockheed Martin, it's made me really careful about what people perceive I'm doing and what I'm saying as authentic.
[00:07:57] JR: Yeah, go a little deeper and they're in the perceptive reality. I can't remember the exact scripture. But it's talking about – I think it's Paul writing, talking about taking pains to do what is right. Basically, being above reproach, so that not just what I'm actually doing in the work, but the perception is above board. What does that look like for you? How do you do that in your specific context, Andrea?
[00:08:20] AS: I think it's just always making sure that what you say you're going to do that you do. Let your yes be yes. Let your no be no. Being very – if I say I'm going to do something, I absolutely do it. Or of course, there's grace and there's mercy there. In especially the work environment with your family, when you say you're going to do something, that you're continuously monitoring that you're doing what you said you're going to do. That you're doing things out of integrity and good morals, good values.
[00:08:52] JR: Yeah. I know you've read my book, Redeem Your Time. Talking about principle number two. And let your yes be yes. I imagine you can't rise to a position like yours without your yes being yes. What impact has that had at work that people can trust, that when Andrea Sherwood says she's going to do something, she does it?
[00:09:12] AS: It's given me huge opportunities. The CISO at NBC Universal, she –
[00:09:16] JR: What's a CISO?
[00:09:17] AS: Corporate information security officer.
[00:09:20] JR: Got it.
[00:09:20] AS: She's the senior vice president of information security essentially. We worked with her for a long time when I worked at Lockheed. And she would bring certain people together that she knew they were her team that would go do the work that needed to be done. And she could expect that when those things happen or when those things needed to be done that they would focus, that there would be action, there wouldn't be – There would basically be accountability and there would be ownership of everything that people said they were going to do. And that was her team.
And so, when I was able to go over to NBC Universal, it felt like I had that opportunity because she had those people that she had me on that list of people that she knew I was going to do but I said I was going to do. And I've had people say, "If something's going to need to be done, that Andrea would be a good person to bring in to go in and get those things done."
[00:10:17] JR: That's a big deal, though, right? I mean, I used to tell interns all the time at my companies, I'm like, "Guys, I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer. But you really cannot imagine how low the bar is for you to be successful in your career." right? The bar is show up on time and do what you say you're going to do. And if you do, you're going to be more successful than 90% of your peers.
[00:10:41] AS: I mean, honestly. Yeah.
[00:10:42] JR: Right? I mean, you've worked in big environments. I'm sure you've seen the same thing play out. But like more important than being seen as somebody who could be trusted, it builds relationships that can lead to opportunities to tell people why we care so deeply about being trusted, right? I'm sure you've had opportunities to talk about your faith because people trust that Andrea will get the job done, right?
[00:11:08] AS: Yeah, absolutely. Because people do wonder why you are the way you are. I mean, especially when you get to have those one-on-one conversations. I love traveling. I love to – because I've been a telecommuter for a long time. It's that getting face time with people and being in those one-on-one conversations where you can really open up. And I feel like that's when the question is, "What makes you tick? What makes you the way you are?"
And I always get to talk about how important it is to me to be in Bible study, to be in God's word, to use – and I, of course, wouldn't use words like sanctification. But you really want things to be moving you towards growth and becoming better in your life. And so, those are all things that Christians do that they're called to do.
[00:11:55] JR: Yeah. And I think when your yes is yes, you've got systems in place to allow you to do what you say you're going to do. Inevitably, what that means for that one-on-one performance review conversation is hopefully there's nothing on the agenda. And for 55 minutes, you could just talk person to person and get to know each other at a deeper level and build relationships to be leveraged for the sake of the Gospel, right?
I was talking to a buddy of mine who works at a big corporate environment. And he's like, "Listen, there's like never anything on my performance review docket." Right? And he's like, "And so, I get to talk about adoption, because we've adopted. And I get to talk about church and all these things because there's just not a lot of criticism." Like, that's a great way to think about it. Work yourself out of the agenda of the performance review.
Hey, we talked about this when we were having our meet up. You work at this large media conglomerate. And I'm sure anyone in your position who's a believer, there's probably plenty of things your employer does that you disagree with because of your faith.
And I think it could be tempting in those situations to leave. Why have you stayed? What compels you to stay in an environment where that employer is doing things contrary to God's word?
[00:13:09] AS: It's hard. It's definitely a struggle for me that I think about, I contemplate. But I think the biggest thing that keeps me there is the heart or wanting to shape the hearts of the people that I'm around and that I'm working with. I have really some of the nicest people that I work with. And I have had the opportunity to talk about my faith and what has made me get through some really tough times.
I think that's the biggest thing, is I really feel like God has called me to be in relationships with the people I'm working with and to have those good conversations and just to be a light in that area. I mean, it's been really nice for me to be a little bit not – I mean, because we focus so much on cyber and everybody is really just wanting to do the best they can in their jobs. And this is the really the best of the best in cyber security in some of these big corporations. I think that kind of shelters me from some of the things going on. But then when I see what's going on outside of that within the company, sometimes it makes it harder. But then I have to remember who I'm directly in contact with on a day-to-day basis.
[00:14:22] JR: Yeah. Have you ever been in a position personally where you had to say no to maybe a project or a policy because of your faith?
[00:14:30] AS: Well, it is against policy to talk about religion at NBC Universal. I mean, I went through the respect for the workplace training a few weeks ago. And it says it's against policy to talk about religion or politics.
[00:14:43] JR: Really?
[00:14:44] AS: Yeah. But in the same sentence or in the same – something they say on a regular basis, bring your authentic self to work. I also am bringing my authentic self to work. I don't, I guess, listen to that policy. Because, I mean, I don't know what they would consider talking about religion. But I talk about I go to my church. I talk about that you know I follow Jesus Christ. When I've had a conversation with a few people, I've talked about things in my life. It's just talking about my life.
[00:15:13] JR: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought this up. This is a great example. The scripture is very, very clear that we are called to obey authorities, even authorities that are not Christians, right?
[00:15:26] AS: Yup.
[00:15:27] JR: Up until a point that those authorities directives directly contradict God's word, right?
[00:15:35] AS: Right. Yup.
[00:15:35] JR: Jesus told us to be bold and proclaiming His name into all the Earth, right? Somebody's always thought to do that. We had this conversation with my six-year-old, Kate. I think, yeah, she was five at the time. This was last year in school. And her teacher sent us a message. I was like, "Hey, Kate just like walked into class this morning and basically started preaching about Jesus Christ through the entire kindergarten classroom.
[00:16:01] AS: [inaudible 00:16:01].
[00:16:03] JR: I was like – But Kara and I were forced with this. We're like, "Okay." And basically, the teachers like, "Listen, I'm a Christian as well. I love that Kate did that. But she can't do that in the context of the whole class. It's more effective if she does one-on-one." But it was a good opportunity for us to tell Kate, "Hey, listen, we are so proud of you for doing that." Right? Now, there are artful ways to do it and non artful ways to do it. And just barging in the door probably isn't like the most tactful way to do it. But that's a clear example of when I think it is okay. One of the rare examples where we're called to disobey those authorities even in the workplace. And so, I commend you for that.
[00:16:43] AS: Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the – I don't even know what the repercussion would be. LinkedIn is a big way for me to interact with people in different business areas. So, in cyber. And also, I've started the c-suite for Christ once a month meeting to bring people together to talk about their faith, but as for an executive perspective. And so, that's all over my LinkedIn. People that I work with, all the people that I'm associated with, they all know that I'm a Christian. Yeah, it's pretty clear.
I love that idea of – or I've been hearing people say, "If we were to find that Christianity is illegal today, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" And that's kind of where I'm trying to make sure there's a clear conviction for me.
[00:17:34] JR: Yeah. I love how the Holy Spirit works. You listeners don't get insight to this very much. So, I'll just call it out. I record these episodes like three or four at a time, right? One day a month. In that quote, which I don't know if it's ever been uttered on the podcast before. I believe it's from Jimmy Carter, right, "I hope at the end of the life that there's enough evidence to convict me as a Christian." I don't think I've ever said a publicly on the podcast. But it's come up in two or three interviews today, right? Clearly, the Holy Spirit is doing something. So, word for you listener is to pay attention to that word.
But, no, Andrea, we were talking about this over coffee. Just the need for Christians to serve as a faithful presence of Jesus Christ in dark corners of culture, right? I mean, you talk about being light. Well, lights not all that impactful in really bright light places, right? It's really impactful in really dark places. And I'm curious if you've seen that play out, where because you're in a "darker industry", if we could even call it that, your light has been able to shine brighter as a result of being in that space.
[00:18:44] AS: Yeah, I think. I think that I've heard the feedback, especially this past year. He was the vice president that I was aligned to for some time. And he only stayed within the company for a short period of time. But while he was there, he said, "Everybody loves you."
[00:19:04] JR: Yeah. No. This is the place. This is the place to pat yourself on the back and have this conversation.
[00:19:07] AS: I mean, just that helped. I mean, that made me feel like I'm here for a reason. He said, "Everybody loves you. Everybody –" Well, actually, let me just say it actually did two things. One, it said, "Am I not being Christian enough? If everybody loves me, am I being too worldly? Or if everybody says they like me, is that because I'm being a light?" I had to really kind of reflect on that, too.
But I ultimately came to feel like I think it's because people just – I'm just kind? I listen? I show love to people? I show grace when people are doing things that really are counter to what needs to be done that I try to have conversations with people? And so, just from a leadership perspective, there's a lot of things that come out when you've been grown up or you've been in your faith for a period of time and you just bring those things to leadership, right?
[00:20:07] JR: Yeah. No. I love it. I love it so much. And I think for anyone listening today who is in – we talked about this with Mimi Chan on the podcast a couple weeks ago, right? The way you make a secular workplace sacred is by you, as a Christian and dwelt with the Holy Spirit, walking through the front door, right? Secular means without God. As soon as you walk in the front door, God is there, God is in that place.
And I think there are some instances in which if a job is forcing you to sin, if it's requiring you to sin, yeah, I think we got to abstain, and/or risk getting fired or quitting. But I think those instances are few and far between, right? I think barring that exception, I think we should be sprinting into the darkest corners of culture, whether it's media or politics. It's just shine the light of Jesus there.
And, oh by the way, this is what Jesus did, right? Hebrews talks about this. Jesus could have chosen to work in these holier work environments inside the temple. Instead, he opted to work outside the city gates, right? In the darker industry of business as a carpenter, a stone mason, however you want to translate that word in Mark 6:3, where he undoubtedly suffered more blood, more sweat, more tears and more temptation than the average priest, right?
[00:21:30] AS: Right. Well, and I think the early believers, too, with all of the persecution they went through and the things that they put themselves into to spread the gospel. But they had each other. And so, I think it's really important for us to be in that church community, to be also outside of our work and outside of the dark places we're going to surround ourselves with others who are also a believer, so that you can be edified and built up and just really, I guess, encouraged to keep going.
[00:22:04] JR: Yes, 100%. I mean, it's the difference between insulation and isolation.
[00:22:08] AS: Yes, yes.
[00:22:09] JR: Right? The mistake I see so many Christians making is we're just gonna isolate in our Christian subculture and wait for Jesus to return. That's just not the model that I see in the New Testament. We are called to insulate, like you said. To be in serious Christian community in a local church, right? To be encouraged and edified so that we could spread out and go to work at NBC, and Amazon, and Walmart, and, I don't know, your local Best Buys. That's the little thing I don't know, right? To the glory of God, right? Bring the light into dark places.
[00:22:44] AS: Be the warrior. You've got to get rest, but you got to get back out there and and fight the good fight.
[00:22:49] JR: That's right. But the purpose of the – Man! I want to have this conversation more broadly. But purpose of rest, purpose of that community is not so that it leads to more rest, right? It leads us to be more fully engaged in the world.
Hey, I wanted to ask you one more thing. I'm writing this book right now, writing a lot about the new heavens and the new earth and what it means for our work. And you know, I think it's interesting given your profession. There's going to be no cyber security jobs on the do earth, right? Like, you're going to have to find a new craft. What job do you want for eternity?
[00:23:25] AS: I mean, do we really know there isn't going to be computers? I mean, obviously, I won't be protecting. But I'll be in IT maybe.
[00:23:32] JR: Yeah, that's true. Listen, I think why wouldn't computers be considered the glory of the nations? I think they will be. Without all their imperfections, right? We won't be forgetting passwords for are eternity. But, yes, you'd want to work with computers.
[00:23:46] AS: I think so. Well, oh my goodness, that opens up such a huge – I really have a pretty diverse interest in things. I love to be out in the yard. I love to hang out with my grand – I love children in general. I just love that whole creative side of children that comes out just naturally. I think that's a really hard question because I don't know what God would put me doing in eternity, because I love to do so many different things, I guess?
[00:24:15] JR: I know. But isn't that exciting to think about? For the first million years, you'll be gardening.
[00:24:20] AS: Yes. I'll be growing all the flowers.
[00:24:22] JR: But with the second million, you'll be an IT specialist. I don't know. You know, it seems trivial and it seems silly, but I actually think this is part of the way that we feel our hope. I would challenge you, I would challenge our listeners, look at the real concrete promises of scripture and what the new Earth really is. And make a list of the jobs you want for eternity. That sounds ridiculous. I don't think it is, because I think it spurs further obedience in the presence. Not to earn our salvation. That's not what I'm saying. But scripture is clear that we will all have different responsibility on the new earth based on how we steward this life. And so, that vision for your eternal career can cultivate obedience in the presence, all glory be to Christ, right?
[00:25:06] AS: And then I think your book, Master of One, really helps – by thinking about that, what is that one thing that you really want to continue to cultivate and continue to focus? And that's what I really also trying to do here on Earth, is being obedient to that calling. I feel like God has put me working harder to get certifications. Working harder to just grow in that architecture mindset of security and things like that. And that comes from that conversation of that what is God calling you to be that master of one thing?
[00:25:38] JR: Yeah, I love it. Well, that's a good segue. I hope this is part of your answer to the next question. Andrea, which books do you recommend or gift most frequently to others?
[00:25:49] AS: and I've heard others on your podcast say that your books – And I'm not just saying that. I bought Redeeming Your Time for my kids. I bought Called to Create for my kids. I bought your children's book. I do do that. But I felt like that was also kind of a cop-out because –
[00:26:04] JR: [inaudible 00:26:04] different answer. Yeah.
[00:26:07] AS: That's way too easy. But I love Ligonier Ministries, R.C. Sproul, Sinclair Ferguson are my favorite. I'm going to throw out the Holiness of God. And Sinclair Ferguson wrote a book called Maturity. And it's growing up and going on in the Christian life. And it's just we're called to not just stay kind of surface level with scripture, but to be really digging in and learning and growing in our faith.
[00:26:34] JR: Jen Wilkin in really good on this. Talking about how every Christian's called to be a theologian.
[00:26:38] AS: Yes. Yes.
[00:26:39] JR: I think there's a lot of truth to that idea. I think that's really good. All right, who do you want to hear in this podcast, Andrea, talking about how the gospel shapes their work?
[00:26:48] AS: I think I mentioned this to you before, but I'm going to say I've got two people. Paul Neuberger is – I think it would be so fun to hear you two having a conversation. But then also, there's Crystal Parker. She's like the U.S. Christian Chamber of Commerce President and Central Florida Christian Chamber of Commerce President. She worked in a fortune 200 oil and gas company and took a leap of faith and started her own business. She wrote a book. And she was just living out the Christian faith within the business community. And I just think either of them would just be a really fun conversation I think to you.
[00:27:23] JR: Those are good names. Those are good names. And a great endorsement for everybody to move to Central Florida, if you're not already. I think everybody's already moving here anyways. But all these cool people in Central Florida.
All right, Andrea, what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?
[00:27:23] AS: Oh, I would say I didn't really talk too much about it, but just when I went into IT and just kind of take talking that's next step to going somewhere not really knowing if that was my calling, feeling really comfortable after a while that God put me there for a reason. And then seeing, especially looking back, where he just led me to the different places that I needed to go. So, not to worry too much about – I know a lot of people are, "Where am I being called to where does God want me to go?" But to just really kind of just taking those next steps and doing what makes sense at the time.
[00:28:19] JR: All right. I'm going to hold you to go a little deeper on there. That's not going to be the last word. What do you mean? I feel like you got more to say here. Yeah, I think a lot of us get worried about like five steps down the road vocationally. I think what I'm hearing you say is just be faithful to what's in your hand. Is that what you're saying?
[00:28:35] AS: Yeah. Well, I think people just put too much sometimes worry and concern that they're going take the wrong step. And God is faithful. If you're doing something in prayer and you're doing something and you're taking steps that you know aren't wrong, there's nothing bad about it. But you don't know if it's God's will. That's okay. That God will bless that because you want to do his will.
[00:29:01] JR: Yeah. Dang! That's good. That'll preach. Andrea, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you for reminding us to make sure that our yes is yes, so that we're good keepers of our words, so that we're the best keepers of the word Jesus Christ. And thank you for reminding us to insulate instead of isolate. To being Christian community, but then to run to dark places where the light of the world is most desperately needed. Guys, if you want to connect with Andrea, you can find her easily on LinkedIn. It's Andrea Sherwood. Andrea, my friend, thank you again for spending some time together today.
[00:29:44] AS: Thank you so much, Jordan, for everything you do. I love your books. I love everything that you've been doing to bring people together in business and in faith.
[OUTRO]
[00:29:53] JR: Hey, if you want to hang out with people like Andrea, join the Word Before Work Community today. Just Google the Word Before Work Community and you'll find it right there.
Hey, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I'll see you next week.
[END]